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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 11:49 ilbh wrote:
I think avilo's points makes sense...
what about increasing the range of HSM? so you can still use it while fungal'ed. I don't remember if its possible to cast HSM while fungal'ed... if not possible they should make it possible.
imo Terran has some fundamental problems... but not going to discuss it here lol
I'm not 100% sure, but I remember people saying you can't siege while fungaled so I suppose you can't cast HSM while fungaled?
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i feel bad for avilo that he has such a bad wrap that people discount these ideas just because he wrote them... what did you do man?
i agree that the queen range didn't push the matchup out of whack its just that because of the queen buff more zergs get into late game so late game fundamental issues are being brought to the forefront of the discussion...
i think the main problem is fungal... if you get one off, it immedialtey means anything that is caught will not escape when playing a good zerg. Even with for a viking spread, it means that there is no oppurtinity for VIking Micro or any option for Terran to retreat once fungaled.
I think the best way for the infestor fungal to be used is some sort of slow on the units instead of a freeze so that that Terrans are still able to punish zergs who aren't cognicant of the infestor positioning post-fungal. It would allow vikings an option to retreat while still taking the normal amount of damage.
Also in ZvP matchup it would allow good blink stalker micro to help aid Infestor/Corrupto/Blord late game more effectively because right now they are basicaly fodder until the vortex hits
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Canada16217 Posts
Terran players really aren't doing so bad at the moment, and with this buffs it will be less of an issue. No reason for whatever changes the OP is suggesting, IMO at least. Raven will be improved with the changes(harder to get fungaled etc) , just wait and see how big of a change it is, and then re-discuss balance if it still doesn't solve anything.
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On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote:
Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
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"pro korean Terran players are suddenly being beaten handily by inferior Zergs, most often when the game goes to lategame."
Inferior in what? skills in starcraft2? How do you define skills in starcraft2? if those pro korean terran lose to the cheese and all ins that were hidden perfectly and executed well, and it takes a lot effort in defending it than it is to execute it, maybe then you can make a case. But like you said shit went into late game, a macro game, a at least 20-30 minute long game, you can't make the claim about "inferior zergs" unless you are referring to the player's achievements, which are how much they won, past tense. Well these "inferior zergs" just beat which ever pro koreans terran with whatever achievement in a live event, which means thou they lack the achievement, their skills(however you define skills in sc2) are at least close enough for them to win in a good day.
agree with your point about ravens. It is a good call.
In your second point, you were doing so well until
"The queen preventing hellions denying creep...allows more creep spread...allows denial of attacks...allow all larva to be used on drones until Zerg can power 100% units/tech...all of this snowballs to the point where Terran "has to do damage" but cannot due to the reaction time creep spread allows to deny attacks + the queens themselves. "
Your chains of logic breaks down at "allows denial of attacks" terran can still attack, it just means that they will have to fight on top of creeps. And since you posted this today, i couldn't help but think that pro korean terran you are referring to is supernova, and that infestor foreigner zerg is vortix. How can you put up such a strawman of an argument if that's the case?
supernova fucking own the shit out of vortix in mid game by killing the 3rd hatchery game after game, every single game vortix had to play from behind during mid game and fought his way back. Supernova did exactly what I said. If the floor is cover with creeps, then terran should fight on the creeps, just like in 300 they said they will fight in the shades if arrow blocks out the sky.
your point number3 ignores feed back and snipe, both abilities can be use to fight that of fungal/infestor. Have you ever think for yourself for once? why are you so blind and give in to your pride? You are not winning because you are not skilled enough, it has nothing to do with the game. Stop looking for blizzard to balance the game when a trend is unfavorable toward your particular race. You as a pro gamer are suppose to be the ones who evolves the strategy through skill and not whine to blizzard.
This is why rekrul made so many foreigner sucks thread, stop whining, and practice harder without pride and prejudices.
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something funny to think about is also how suddenly foreigners are doing well... vortix, jhonnyrecco, sortof, slivko etc. all came out of nowhere...what do they all have in common? ohh yea, right, they all paly zerg...before the patch jhnonnyrecco and sortof both were mid gms on eu servers at best, i played them all the time and they were very beatable, since the patch they jumped to top gmk beating koreans all of a sudden recco with a top tsl finish as the last foreigner already
I find it very hard to believe that all the succes came out of sudden skill improvements...
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I thought avilo made at least a little sense. I would love to see more ravens, and speed won't do it.
On August 19 2012 11:39 Kaeru wrote:I've said this since the release.Fungal Growth pinning down units is not a good solution. Fungal Growth should just like Ensnare from Brood War slow units by a high percentage like 80% or something. Why? Because if you catch 20 Vikings in one Fungal, as it is now, you can chain Fungal them to death. While with a slow of 80% or whatever number - Vikings can slowly split and maybe half of them will survive with low health. Or at least force the Zerg player to use MORE energy to kill everything off! This wont only affect TvZ but also ZvZ where Mutas suddenly becomes a bit more interesting and less risky to make... What this WONT affect is ground to ground battles. Stalkers won't be able to Blink and their slowed movement wont be microable vs Lings or Roaches. Marines and Hellions will still be slowed by Fungal and catching them with Lings/Banes will still be as viable as now - sure you can split a little more. But that's a good thing! Zealots will be slightly more usefull in PvZ since they won't be pinned and totally wasted - for example if you warp in 8 Zealots with a Warp Prism and they all get Fungaled close to the mineral line. You might force the Zerg to move their Drones to avoid a few Zealot hits. --------------------------------------------------------------- Why is Raven not 'viable' now? (It actually is)In my opinion, one big reason why Ravens are not viable is because none of the Terran builds actually have any goal to get Ravens. When do people get Ravens? In late, late game when you have banked up 1500 gas. BAM 3-4 Starports go down and Ravens are produced... What if Terrans (like me) start making builds that are designed to incorporate Ravens at the 14 minute mark insted? This is at a timing where Terran has 3 bases and very high mineral income... A lot of that income is actually dumped into Scans for killing tumors. Some Ravens might give you 2-3 more Barracks worth of Marine production. Actually (I am high master) I have tried to play a lot of games where I design the builds to incorporate Ravens, and it has been going really well... --------------------------------------------------------------- Another thing to add - remember history!Remember when Terrans had no idea of how to split units? 5 Banelings rolled in and killed 20 Marines. Then Terran players learned to split and BAAM! MarineKing shows us that 5 Banelings only need to kill 3-4 Marines  ! So the HSM looks godlike from time to time... Sometimes it looks useless. I think that with time - Zerg will get more used to splitting their units, just like Terrans and HSM will just be good - insted of godlike. Now don't counter argument me with "Then why don't you split your Vikings?" Because Fungal is instant and you can chain it... There is 0 reaction time to split. --------------------------------------------------------------- Personally I like the Queen buff, I also love the new ideas of the new creep tumor range and Raven speed. But in the end - personally - I think that the problem lies in Fungal Growth pinning down units insted of slowing them by a lot...
Blizzard should listen to you.
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On August 19 2012 11:56 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote:
Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them. I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
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im high diamond and i think zvt is fine as it is
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On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote:
I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems.
Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber...
I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens
The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~
Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~
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On August 19 2012 12:00 PiPoGevy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote:On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote:
I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber... I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~ Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~
The obnoxious thing is that It's been almost four months. Terrans have tried just about everything.
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On August 19 2012 11:56 rei wrote:
"pro korean Terran players are suddenly being beaten handily by inferior Zergs, most often when the game goes to lategame."
Inferior in what? skills in starcraft2? How do you define skills in starcraft2? if those pro korean terran lose to the cheese and all ins that were hidden perfectly and executed well, and it takes a lot effort in defending it than it is to execute it, maybe then you can make a case. But like you said shit went into late game, a macro game, a at least 20-30 minute long game, you can't make the claim about "inferior zergs" unless you are referring to the player's achievements, which are how much they won, past tense. Well these "inferior zergs" just beat which ever pro koreans terran with whatever achievement in a live event, which means thou they lack the achievement, their skills(however you define skills in sc2) are at least close enough for them to win in a good day.
agree with your point about ravens. It is a good call.
In your second point, you were doing so well until
"The queen preventing hellions denying creep...allows more creep spread...allows denial of attacks...allow all larva to be used on drones until Zerg can power 100% units/tech...all of this snowballs to the point where Terran "has to do damage" but cannot due to the reaction time creep spread allows to deny attacks + the queens themselves. "
Your chains of logic breaks down at "allows denial of attacks" terran can still attack, it just means that they will have to fight on top of creeps. And since you posted this today, i couldn't help but think that pro korean terran you are referring to is supernova, and that infestor foreigner zerg is vortix. How can you put up such a strawman of an argument if that's the case?
supernova fucking own the shit out of vortix in mid game by killing the 3rd hatchery game after game, every single game vortix had to play from behind during mid game and fought his way back. Supernova did exactly what I said. If the floor is cover with creeps, then terran should fight on the creeps, just like in 300 they said they will fight in the shades if arrow blocks out the sky.
your point number3 ignores feed back and snipe, both abilities can be use to fight that of fungal/infestor. Have you ever think for yourself for once? why are you so blind and give in to your pride? You are not winning because you are not skilled enough, it has nothing to do with the game. Stop looking for blizzard to balance the game when a trend is unfavorable toward your particular race. You as a pro gamer are suppose to be the ones who evolves the strategy through skill and not whine to blizzard.
This is why rekrul made so many foreigner sucks thread, stop whining, and practice harder without pride and prestigious.
Problem is that marine tanks trades pretty poorly on creep even against a comp they should hard counter (ling, bling). Add in infestors and it is a rout. If you look at Taeja, he will go pure bio a lot because with good pre splits, they actually do better. Tanks are just not good on crap since the lings can close so fast on creep and you end up shooting yourself.
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On August 19 2012 11:57 mEtRoSG wrote:
something funny to think about is also how suddenly foreigners are doing well... vortix, jhonnyrecco, sortof, slivko etc. all came out of nowhere...what do they all have in common? ohh yea, right, they all paly zerg...before the patch jhnonnyrecco and sortof both were mid gms on eu servers at best, i played them all the time and they were very beatable, since the patch they jumped to top gmk beating koreans all of a sudden recco with a top tsl finish as the last foreigner already
I find it very hard to believe that all the succes came out of sudden skill improvements...
That's an exaggeration - some zergs like Vortix and Scarlet had results before the queen change.
And it's not like the foreign scene had a lot of terrans to impede their progress.
I really don't see what this raven discussion is meant to accomplish.
Blizzard decided to leave terran late-game in the current state long time ago.
HotS changes (and the upcoming balance patch) should spell it out pretty clearly - there are no intentions to change/buff raven/ghosts/thor/battlecruiser to any significant degree.
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On August 19 2012 12:04 IAmMajiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:00 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote:On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote:
I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber... I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~ Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~ The obnoxious thing is that It's been almost four months. Terrans have tried just about everything.
The thing is, it is not just terrans adapting. Zergs are also adapting to see how greedy they can get. When they lose the third, they just tech straight into Infestors and then BLs. They are starting to learn how they can defend and transition even when behind significantly. If terrans try to transition when significantly behind, they just get rolled. Zergs just seem to have a large margin for error now.
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On August 19 2012 12:04 IAmMajiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:00 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote:On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote:
I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber... I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~ Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~ The obnoxious thing is that It's been almost four months. Terrans have tried just about everything.
If by Terrans you mean MVP and Taeja. Every other Terran I see play still does the exact same things they did pre-Queen buff, or plays excessively greedy early.
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TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
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Whoever posted about the increase in creep removal rate is someone that I really agree with. As it stands right now, creep removal in the earlygame from hellions is essentially useless thanks to the 6queen build. Hellions kill tumors, get chased off by queens, and the queens that have been stockpiling energy for a fairly long time since they are dedicated to just making a few tumors early and then blocking hellions put down new creep tumors 1-2 hexes back from the edge of the creep originally-about a 10-15 second delay on creep spread if you're lucky :|
Another time that this issue can be seen (although less critical) is using overlords to block expansions. Zerg sits an overlord there. poops creep out, and then is chased off when the non-zerg looks to plant an expo. However, even after the overlord is chased off, it takes ~30 seconds (guesstimation) before the nexus/cc can actually be planted because creep takes SO LONG to go away.
:<
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After seeing the first page of comments I am surprised that good players still take the time to offer their stance on such topics.
I think the fundamental problems in late game ravens are well outlined. I think if they made HSM weaker, but be available sooner (in terms of energy required), then it could be a more viable spell. Right now the ravens are very sluggish / short-ranged and HSM only works when the Zerg is not looking at their army. Also fungal is non-projectile (instant cast) so you can't split in response to being in fungal range, where as HSM leaves a lot more opportunity for a zerg to micro. I think blizzard does not want to make the HSM less energy because having 2 missiles per raven would be too powerful (even if the damage was nerfed somehow). Maybe if they made some sort of upgrade from the fusion core that allowed banshees and ravens to produce from reactor starports, then Terran could identify the requirement to respond to a zerg tech transition and react appropriately.
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On August 19 2012 12:04 IAmMajiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:00 PiPoGevy wrote:On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote:On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote:
I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber... I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~ Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~ The obnoxious thing is that It's been almost four months. Terrans have tried just about everything.
no they havent Terrans are still using the exact same opening theve been using since.... basically since TvZ was invented
there still getting fast factory and getting 4 hellions and moving out already knowing that the Zerg already has 4+ queens and is using a build specifically tailored to stopping hellion harass
now if they used those resources to jsut take a safe 3rd and follow it up with good macro play and find a powerful timing to hit instead of throwing away 400+ resources every single game maybe Terran would start to innovate
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No vthree, the problem is not what unit composition trades badly against another unit composition. The problem here is people who are suppose to be pros whine about balancing before they make any efforts in overcoming the obstacle. we hear this all the fucking time from foreigner pros. The only exception is stephano, he calls it like he sees it, he never dismiss other people's victories and success by calling imba, he's the real man who said zerg is a strong race for years when every foreigner zerg whines and whine. Is it not surprising that he's the only one doing so well for so long, his mindset allow him to see reality without pride getting in the way. When he types WP at the end of the game, he meant it, if someone were to beat him, it is never because the other guy is abusing a bad balancing aspect of the game, if someone were to beat him it's always they played well, and hence the the well deserve well play from stephano.
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EPT
