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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 13:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote:On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:
Nerchio 2-0 over Puma.
Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG.
Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber.
Vortix 3-0 over ForGG.
Vortix 3-2 over supernova.
Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. Puma/ForGG are both extremely good players. And ForGG played super greedy because he had to; otherwise there's no keeping up with a Z player. And Moonglade is good, but he is not a beast. Far from it.
Completely untrue, Puma has been slumping for the past year (along with EG) so it's no surprise Nerchio made quick work of him seeing as Nerchio has been shredding in 2012 and ForGG has always been bad, he's a Code A terran that fumbles hard at live events... What has he done in SC2 thus far?
Terrans don't "have to play greedy" hell MVP opened reactor hellion and won easy pzy in the quarter finals. This is just giving Terrans another reason to bitch.
BTW, since he asked in post, I am masters 1.1k pt Terran. The game's fine.
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On August 19 2012 12:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... You don't know Stephano, do you? I think the Queen Range change went too far in buffing Zerg. The Queen used to be a good anti-air unit that could add a bit of ground firepower. Now in ZvT in particular she is a front line all purpose defensive unit. A walking Photon Cannon if you will.
At IPL 3 he only beat Boxer and TheSTC. Boxer had long fallen from code S and thestc hadn't made it in yet.
Then he was beaten by Boxer at Orlando.
Then he lost to Puma at Cologne 2011.
In Blizzard cup he lost to MVP.
At ESWC he did beat Marineking.
But at Homestory cup 4 he was 2-0d by code a Sound, Then 2-0d by Marineking.
At IPL 4 he beat bomber, but then lost 0-2 to Marineking and MMA.
At MLG Winter championship, his run was ended by Polt, who has an about even record against.
Going by TLPD International: He is 47-47 against Korean Terrans and then if you put in his best of 1 vs MVP at Blizzard cup he's below 50%.
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On August 19 2012 13:12 Entirety wrote:
This is what I don't understand.
Mvp does the Ghost Snipe Trick... After only a few games, Snipe is nerfed.
Then Blizzard does this Queen buff... now Terrans have trouble with Brood Lord/Corrupter/Infestor. Despite an immediate drop in winrates and persisting lowered winrates, Terrans are told to innovate and nothing changes for months.
Now, I'm not saying that's bad... Terrans should innovate, innovation is always good and Terran might find a way to balance TvZ once more. However, Zerg never really got a change to innovate... I want to see the Snipe nerf reverted, just to see how the metagame plays out. Maybe it'll be horribly imbalanced, maybe Zerg will find a way to overcome it. Either way, I'd just like to see how it develops because I'm sure that a lot of people felt like the nerf was too soon.
At Masters level and up, the only way for Terran to win is to force Z's to make a bad mistake by severely misplaying or overreacting. That's the only way. There is no magic pill, there is no build order wins (you have none; if you properly play a 11 minute +2 Blink, or a 2 base 1/1 Immortal all-in, the Z is really, really, really fucked unless he plays absolutely perfectly and hits every inject AND the P messes up on his FFs).
Terran not having any kind of soft/hard counter builds against Z is the reason why most people perceive T to be struggling, while Z has plenty of virtual auto-win builds against T depending on what the T does (all on reaction too).
On August 19 2012 13:12 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:10 superstartran wrote:On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote:On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:
Nerchio 2-0 over Puma.
Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG.
Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber.
Vortix 3-0 over ForGG.
Vortix 3-2 over supernova.
Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. Puma/ForGG are both extremely good players. And ForGG played super greedy because he had to; otherwise there's no keeping up with a Z player. And Moonglade is good, but he is not a beast. Far from it. Completely untrue, Puma has been slumping for the past year (along with EG) so it's no surprise Nerchio made quick work of him seeing as Nerchio has been shredding in 2012 and ForGG has always been bad, he's a Code A terran that fumbles hard at live events... What has he done in SC2 thus far? Terrans don't "have to play greedy" hell MVP opened reactor hellion and won easy pzy in the quarter finals. This is just giving Terrans another reason to bitch. BTW, since he asked in post, I am masters 1.1k pt Terran. The game's fine.
MarineKing mostly won on timings where he simply outmicroed his opponent into the ground or his opponent simply didn't scout the timing attack properly. MKP if he faced a Korean caliber Z that played the match-up at about 85-95% efficiency would lose quite badly.
It's like people forget that a Z has to do really dumb shit for them to lose. Symbol lost to Reality in the WCS Korean tournament because he played the 2nd game absolutely stupid, getting completely out controlled and fumbling his macro badly, and he is supposed to be one of the top Z's in the game (along with DRG), and Reality is a complete nobody in the SC2 world up until that point. And really, I don't even think Reality is that good; he's just simply solid and punishes Z's for playing bad.
I haven't seen a single Z pro even play Z even close to maximum potential (except DRG); they just play solid most of the time and just stomp their way to victory. The game isn't fine by any stretch of the imagination at all. When a Z player is putting almost no effort and literally raping everyone, there's something wrong with the game. Even if there's nothing wrong "balance" wise, no one wants to watch a fucking 2 base all-in every fucking game.
Avilo is right, the Raven buff isn't going to do jack shit. They need to do something more drastic, but every Z on the planet thinks that the game is fine right now and T should just innovate. Innovate with what? The game has been figured out. PvZ has been literally the same timing attack for close to 8 months now. One of them, +2 Blink Stalkers off a Forge FE was utilized like WELL over a year ago.
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@BanditX Correct me if I'm wrong but storm does twice as much damage as fungal growth does, and you think 1 unit should counter zerg's strongest ground and air unit? Also I heard that Point Defense Drones stop all corruptor attacks, again correct me if this information is incorrect.
All I'm reading is that infestors are way too strong but every terran player refuses to build the unit that counters them. Ghost! It works the same as it does with high templar. 2 snipes Infestor = Dead. 2-3 emps on target = no fungals. Problem Solved?
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On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right?  As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do.
And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny.
Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it
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I am a Top 8 Masters Terran from NA server. From my personal experiences and everything i have gathered. I highgly agree here with Avilo.
"Templar/infestors are able to become useful 100% right when they pop out in the form of either feedbacks, archons, fungal, or IT. Ravens are a gamble and incredible risk because of the time necessary to make them pay off with HSMs, and even in the case you do get an HSM, if your raven is fungalled you suddenly have a paper weight in terms of an investment. Then the ravens die, that's -200 gas for TErran and the infestors are able to burrow and get away. "
This really hits it on the head the balance of magic units within the races. And magic seems to always be the strongest in RTS.
Anyways to get to the point. Its not a fair game to put the skill it takes to play Terran so high and Zerg so low.
I greatly understand that its pretty impossible to balance a 3 raced game perfectly 50/50 each match up. But the TvZ match up is more then 70/30 imbalanced. As we can see Terran especially at the pro level have no shot vs even inferior zergs.
The Zerg race seriosuly feels like a Handicap.
I believe its funny how other zergs will say "deal with it". Why not put the game in Terrans favor and say "good luck zergs! Deal with this!!".
Haha good write up avilo =].
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I can somewhat agree that speed does not address the issue maybe fully, but that patch gives less time for zerg to react so after spreading ravens there is smaller chance that zerg will be able to fungle all ravens incoming but that's more skill baced than balance wise. Range of the spell could fix that. TvZ is fairly balanced still in my opinion, mech works exceptionally well as Mvp showed, plus use of ravens and vikings still works, just takes more brain and skill to use.
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On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it
"Game isn't broken, I just have free scouting, free defense, and complete map control with exponential economic growth."
This is almost as bad as Terran players saying the game was fine before. It wasn't; what needed to change was the maps. Blizzard shouldn't have touched the game at all, but they did, and people began to change maps also on top of that which has resulted in the bullshit game we have today.
And after the Ghost nerf, the game was 50/50. Even when Ghosts were being utilized in a HANDFUL of games, the match-up wasn't anywhere near broken. It was like 55/45 IIRC.
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On August 19 2012 13:20 Ouija wrote:
@BanditX Correct me if I'm wrong but storm does twice as much damage as fungal growth does, and you think 1 unit should counter zerg's strongest ground and air unit? Also I heard that Point Defense Drones stop all corruptor attacks, again correct me if this information is incorrect.
All I'm reading is that infestors are way too strong but every terran player refuses to build the unit that counters them. Ghost! It works the same as it does with high templar. 2 snipes Infestor = Dead. 2-3 emps on target = no fungals. Problem Solved?
You don't understand his point, Fungal growth by itself does an immense amount of damage and you can't "dodge" that dmg, even if you could move it is 100% dmg spell where as Storm can be dodged. In fact, storm can wield upwards of 100% damage to 10% dmg, that is why it does so much whereas fungal not only does 100% dmg each time it hits, it also removes all micro from your opponents hands and allows that opponent to continue "chaining" the effect. Not saying I agree or disagree, but you obviously had an issue understanding what he meant.
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On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5...
Vortix lost in TSL 4 recently to MVPKeen, he also lost to Supernova in that same fucking tourney 2-1 in group stages. Every game against supernova was really tense and could of gone either way. Stop fucking talking about Vortix. He's really fucking good but he's not the reason ZvT is imbalanced or anything and the fact we think he's capable of occasionally beating Korean terrans on occasion somehow means ZvT is imbalanced doesn't make it true at all. It's actually just shitting on a really really really fucking good zerg's achievement. If he wins imba, if he loses then all is well. Fucking atrocious.
Ditto Nerchio too.
As for the OP...
1) Raven's are... difficult to use and I wouldn't personally mind a buff to them but nothing huge. The speed buff doesn't seem particularly relevant towards anything but even so sometimes ravens work and sometimes they don't and the trick is to fully figure out why and how we can use ravens most effectively. I don't think this is a fully explored avenue of Terran theory.
2) Queen range is healthy for the matchup and reversing it would fuck the TvZ metagame in an unhealthy way. Keep queens as is, change a different part. I think reversing a change or just straight up nerfing/removing something as an option is a bad way to change starcraft. Players should be encouraged to try new shiny things to fix problems, not have their shiny new thing just taken away (admittedly some exceptions apply, particularly those concerning certain High Templar's neckwear...)
3) Fungal growth is a very severe spell but it is possible to play around it with vikings. If you spread your vikings out across multiple screen lengths (which KR terrans do quite a bit, I remember seeing Gumiho do it most recently against one of hte SlayerS zergs in GSTL finals) then they cannot be fungalled that efficiently. Yeah infestors are really good. Wouldn't mind a nerf tbh but it's probably not going to happen. Combined with PDD vikings can actually dominate the air war against corrupters and if Zerg don't have air control they have trouble keeping broodlords alive.
Just how I see's it currently, a random NA GM's Terran.
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On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it
The thing is, there is no valid opening now that can stop a zerg from droning. You cant open banshees because they are hard countered by these absurd mass queen builds, you cant open hellions because of mass queens (the range REALLY makes them a little silly), you cant do a bio push because of mass queens AND lings AND banelings... so what do you want us to do? Rush ravens with their new "speed buff" and drop a ton of auto-turrets? Once we drop the turrets, then what? Watch our base get ravaged by lings, blings, and roaches?
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Avilo gets some flak but this is a pretty good write-up. Though to me it's clear the Raven buff isn't intended to fix any current problems. Blizzard wants to give the community a lot of time to try and figure things out. The Raven buff is just intended to be a small nudge before Blizzard decides whether there actually is a problem or not.
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On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful?
Yes, actually.
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On August 19 2012 13:12 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:10 superstartran wrote:On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote:On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:
Nerchio 2-0 over Puma.
Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG.
Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber.
Vortix 3-0 over ForGG.
Vortix 3-2 over supernova.
Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. Puma/ForGG are both extremely good players. And ForGG played super greedy because he had to; otherwise there's no keeping up with a Z player. And Moonglade is good, but he is not a beast. Far from it. Completely untrue, Puma has been slumping for the past year (along with EG) so it's no surprise Nerchio made quick work of him seeing as Nerchio has been shredding in 2012 and ForGG has always been bad, he's a Code A terran that fumbles hard at live events... What has he done in SC2 thus far? Terrans don't "have to play greedy" hell MVP opened reactor hellion and won easy pzy in the quarter finals. This is just giving Terrans another reason to bitch. BTW, since he asked in post, I am masters 1.1k pt Terran. The game's fine.
i'm also 1.1k terran. game isn't fine, zerg is ridiculous and you need to do a lot of blind metagaming to win with the current queens, plus get lucky with overdroning.
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On August 19 2012 13:30 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:12 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 19 2012 13:10 superstartran wrote:On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote:On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:
Nerchio 2-0 over Puma.
Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG.
Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber.
Vortix 3-0 over ForGG.
Vortix 3-2 over supernova.
Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. Puma/ForGG are both extremely good players. And ForGG played super greedy because he had to; otherwise there's no keeping up with a Z player. And Moonglade is good, but he is not a beast. Far from it. Completely untrue, Puma has been slumping for the past year (along with EG) so it's no surprise Nerchio made quick work of him seeing as Nerchio has been shredding in 2012 and ForGG has always been bad, he's a Code A terran that fumbles hard at live events... What has he done in SC2 thus far? Terrans don't "have to play greedy" hell MVP opened reactor hellion and won easy pzy in the quarter finals. This is just giving Terrans another reason to bitch. BTW, since he asked in post, I am masters 1.1k pt Terran. The game's fine. i'm also 1.1k terran. game isn't fine, zerg is ridiculous and you need to do a lot of blind metagaming to win with the current queens, plus get lucky with overdroning.
^^ and hope that the zerg is bad at creep spread as well (which isnt too hard with the 2-4 extra queens they make no anyway...). I agree with you.
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On August 19 2012 13:27 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it The thing is, there is no valid opening now that can stop a zerg from droning. You cant open banshees because they are hard countered by these absurd mass queen builds, you cant open hellions because of mass queens (the range REALLY makes them a little silly), you cant do a bio push because of mass queens AND lings AND banelings... so what do you want us to do? Rush ravens with their new "speed buff" and drop a ton of auto-turrets? Once we drop the turrets, then what? Watch our base get ravaged by lings, blings, and roaches?
I see two choices. Macro up like a beast, getting 3 CC's before Fact/Port (if they're mass droning they can't do that and attack at the same time). Or plan a two base all-in with either Marine/Tank or Marauder/Hellion.
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On August 19 2012 13:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Apparently Avilo didn't watch MVP making lategame Ravens just fine and absolutely crushing entire maxed zerg armies with 10 HSM's. I swear, [D] bullshit threads should get knocked down when they're created, they're just asking for Blizzard to make the game balanced at their level. Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote:On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote:
Nerchio 2-0 over Puma.
Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG.
Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber.
Vortix 3-0 over ForGG.
Vortix 3-2 over supernova.
Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. He also didn't happen to mention that Supernova 2-1'd Vortix, ForGG is actually not a good Terran anymore and that Nerchio is insanely strong. What about MVP or Kas? etc etc etc, this is really biased information.
The problem with ravens is that the only scenario where you can get HSMs off is when the zerg flubs his control and doesnt fungal them. In most of the IEM games ive been seeing terrans dont get a single HSM off because the ravens get chain fungaled.
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On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it
I find it bizarre that people believe ghosts were some tyrannical unit in the history of TvZ when they were only used for a tiny window. You'd be laughed at for suggesting it (I think IdrA was multiple times directly after the Infestor buff that he thought was a nerf). The history of TvZ is the history of early aggression being tested against defensive skills, not super late game ghost armies beating maxed brood lords. At some point they just tilted it farther in the direction of the defender than many Ts are comfortable with, and I agree with them.
When one race has a superior late game, maps give three bases, and they have good scouting and defense against harassment, it's not hard to see why some Ts feel annoyed. It's exactly how Zs felt against mass reapers or 2rax or even that hellion build, all of which got nerfed fairly quickly, and Ts feel annoyed that Blizzard doesn't seem to be doing anything as substantial as the queen range buff was. Of course, Blizzard doesn't really care that much because they'd rather roll out HotS.
Edit: I mean think of it this way. TvZ used to be the most exciting matchup to watch as a random player. When you sit down to watch a TvZ today, is it as interesting as a year ago? Not so much.
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On August 19 2012 13:32 Lavit2099 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:27 LgNKami wrote:On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it The thing is, there is no valid opening now that can stop a zerg from droning. You cant open banshees because they are hard countered by these absurd mass queen builds, you cant open hellions because of mass queens (the range REALLY makes them a little silly), you cant do a bio push because of mass queens AND lings AND banelings... so what do you want us to do? Rush ravens with their new "speed buff" and drop a ton of auto-turrets? Once we drop the turrets, then what? Watch our base get ravaged by lings, blings, and roaches? I see two choices. Macro up like a beast, getting 3 CC's before Fact/Port (if they're mass droning they can't do that and attack at the same time). Or plan a two base all-in with either Marine/Tank or Marauder/Hellion.
Those arent options as they are easily scoutable and the amount of punishment that you can recieve for those being scouted are not worth it anymore. Overlords are fast enough now where they can poke in and out or even just suicide in and get all the info needed for zerg to defend it. Plus by the time we move across the battlefield cleaning up the creep, there will already be an answer to whatever all in terrans decide to do.
On August 19 2012 13:36 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right? As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it I find it bizarre that people believe ghosts were some tyrannical unit in the history of TvZ when they were only used for a tiny window. You'd be laughed at for suggesting it (I think IdrA was multiple times directly after the Infestor buff that he thought was a nerf). The history of TvZ is the history of early aggression being tested against defensive skills, not super late game ghost armies beating maxed brood lords. At some point they just tilted it farther in the direction of the defender than many Ts are comfortable with, and I agree with them. When one race has a superior late game, maps give three bases, and they have good scouting and defense against harassment, it's not hard to see why some Ts feel annoyed. It's exactly how Zs felt against mass reapers or 2rax or even that hellion build, all of which got nerfed fairly quickly, and Ts feel annoyed that Blizzard doesn't seem to be doing anything as substantial as the queen range buff was. Of course, Blizzard doesn't really care that much because they'd rather roll out HotS.
^^ what this guy said.
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Interesting post, Avilo, and well written.
I don't know that I agree, and as I don't play either race, I don't really want to comment.
I do, however, want to ask you, and other high level Terrans about your thoughts on making fungal a projectile spell?
What would Zergs think about that?
The speed would have to be tweaked, but the range would stay the same. Perhaps buff the damage and/duration?
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EPT
