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On August 11 2012 10:53 OptimusYale wrote:
Does anyone remember the game in the gsl between zenio and Idra where Idra got owned as Zenio rushed to lair and made 6 overseers and just larva blocked idra...that was some cash shit
It was Idra's first GSL I believe. I wouldn't say Idra got owned. He just made a huge error, and forgot to block his ramp. If he had blocked his ramp, then he should have won easily.
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One and only time i seen mass contaminate was Zenio vs Idra in one of the first couple of GSLs, it was glorious. Then they changed the costs.
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I really dont know why overseers cant drop creep. why would spending 50/50 to upgrade a unit take away its previous ability.
and doesnt seem like it would be imbalanced, kinda weird
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On August 11 2012 10:50 Reborn8u wrote:
In pvz, zerg could probably just time it the same as muta harass, invest 200/200 in 4 overseers and shut down blink, robo, and forge upgrades for quite a while. Making roaches the whole time and taking a 4th.
When you go Mutas, your opponent can't kill you because you force a base race.
When you go Overseers, you're opponent's best option is...to just go kill you.
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You can only really use the overseer for scouting when your opponent forge FEs. This will probably allow you to be able to deny the forge twice on the attack upgrade if they're going for some sort of all in timing attack.
Not sure if it still works, but another interesting play is to use nydus to defend your 3rd. You can take an early 3rd, as long as it's the farthest from your opponent as possible, and use the nydus to transport your units very quickly between the 2 bases for defense. Your main expo will probably be defended by a few spines, while your 3rd will have the ramp advantage (you must know timings very well if you're going to try this build).
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On August 11 2012 11:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
You can only really use the overseer for scouting when your opponent forge FEs. This will probably allow you to be able to deny the forge twice on the attack upgrade if they're going for some sort of all in timing attack.
Not sure if it still works, but another interesting play is to use nydus to defend your 3rd. You can take an early 3rd, as long as it's the farthest from your opponent as possible, and use the nydus to transport your units very quickly between the 2 bases for defense. Your main expo will probably be defended by a few spines, while your 3rd will have the ramp advantage (you must know timings very well if you're going to try this build).
i dont think its possible to have contanimate in time to defend an all-in like that without sacrificing econ/army for the insanely fast lair
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changeling is better at the moment.
contamination is only really useful for ZvZ, in other matchup, it can't delay any timing push etc
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It doesn't let you repair, hmm? On early/early-midgame attacks, pull an overseer with energy and contaminate bunkers, or PF's later. -_-
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On August 11 2012 11:28 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 11:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
You can only really use the overseer for scouting when your opponent forge FEs. This will probably allow you to be able to deny the forge twice on the attack upgrade if they're going for some sort of all in timing attack.
Not sure if it still works, but another interesting play is to use nydus to defend your 3rd. You can take an early 3rd, as long as it's the farthest from your opponent as possible, and use the nydus to transport your units very quickly between the 2 bases for defense. Your main expo will probably be defended by a few spines, while your 3rd will have the ramp advantage (you must know timings very well if you're going to try this build). i dont think its possible to have contanimate in time to defend an all-in like that without sacrificing econ/army for the insanely fast lair
I haven't played seriously since Dec. 2010, but I will try to explain my scenario.
You go 14 pool
16 gas.
They go forge FE.
You will be able to force a few cannons, and put the protoss into the blind. On some maps, in which the expo has a very wide choke, in which it would take a lot of cannons to defend the entire base, you can get away with cancelling your expansion, and going straight to a lair. Just spine crawler rush the protoss expo. It's really hard for the tosses to defend, since you should have zergling vs their probes trying to kill your spine crawlers.
If they built more cannons, their economy should be slightly delayed, so that the overseer that would normally set you back 50/50 would end up putting you about equal with them. When you contaminate their forge with +1 upgrades, then you should have the defensive advantage, since you're delaying their timing attack.
Most of the games I would win would be by getting to 5 base zerg with a nydus. You want to try to force the protoss to get the least mobile units that they have (immortals), and then avoid the fights completely by backdooring them with the nydus. In the end, I would still barely win, by building about 10k minerals worth of spines, and massed out corruptors with a few spores, while backdooring with a nydus and ling.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
1. My overseers die because they never stop scouting
2. My overseers are with my army because I need detection, and they are easy to snipe
I just never have enough energy on any overseers T_T I do use it when I can though
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On August 11 2012 11:47 Nymphaceae wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 11:28 Forikorder wrote:On August 11 2012 11:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
You can only really use the overseer for scouting when your opponent forge FEs. This will probably allow you to be able to deny the forge twice on the attack upgrade if they're going for some sort of all in timing attack.
Not sure if it still works, but another interesting play is to use nydus to defend your 3rd. You can take an early 3rd, as long as it's the farthest from your opponent as possible, and use the nydus to transport your units very quickly between the 2 bases for defense. Your main expo will probably be defended by a few spines, while your 3rd will have the ramp advantage (you must know timings very well if you're going to try this build). i dont think its possible to have contanimate in time to defend an all-in like that without sacrificing econ/army for the insanely fast lair I haven't played seriously since Dec. 2010, but I will try to explain my scenario. You go 14 pool 16 gas. They go forge FE. You will be able to force a few cannons, and put the protoss into the blind. On some maps, in which the expo has a very wide choke, in which it would take a lot of cannons to defend the entire base, you can get away with cancelling your expansion, and going straight to a lair. Just spine crawler rush the protoss expo. It's really hard for the tosses to defend, since you should have zergling vs their probes trying to kill your spine crawlers. If they built more cannons, their economy should be slightly delayed, so that the overseer that would normally set you back 50/50 would end up putting you about equal with them. When you contaminate their forge with +1 upgrades, then you should have the defensive advantage, since you're delaying their timing attack. Most of the games I would win would be by getting to 5 base zerg with a nydus. You want to try to force the protoss to get the least mobile units that they have (immortals), and then avoid the fights completely by backdooring them with the nydus. In the end, I would still barely win, by building about 10k minerals worth of spines, and massed out corruptors with a few spores, while backdooring with a nydus and ling.
i believe it was said earlier it takes 4 minutes to go from starting lair to contaminate
so youd have to start morphing your lair.... at the time Stephano usually takes his first gases
the amount of econ youd have to cut to delay one minor upgrade for 30 seconds its absolutely ridiculous, especially since you have to cut those drones blind
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Because it's useless and quite expensive energy-wise. You are better off making a couple changelings instead (which are actually quite awesome, they are like overlords placed around the map except they are free so you dont mind losing them, they are zerg's sensor tower).
By the point of the game where you'd have overseer/s with the energy to contaminate, it's so late in the game that that gas would either be spent scouting, or for quicker broodlord tech, hive tech, etc, and that 30 seconds really isn't that much time anymore.
Lair generally also comes too late for zerg to stop any timing pushes too. Zerg relies more on hatch tech to defend 2 base all-ins or pressures, and besides, it costs a shitton of energy. So you are intentionally not dropping changelings, so you are probably more in the dark than before (where you could simply play a more optimal game because you know exactly what's going on). So you may delay the opponent's push for a bit, but you probably had to pump units early because you don't know exactly what is going on.
it's just a weird set of circumstances (okay I really need to know what T/P is doing, my lair finally finished, but I'm going to not drop changelings to scout so if the terran is possibly doing some timing push that will hit in about 4 minutes now, which is about 6 minutes later than most timings pushes would occur since most timing pushes hit before lair finishes for zerg, I will contaminate him for 30 seconds, although terran will still be able to move out he just won't have an upgrade finished or just have a couple fewer units, but I'm hurt more because I had to overcompensate for being in the dark and have less drones/later tech!).
In ZvZ it's 'okay', but with the move toward fast thirds in ZvZ being standard (you can't even play 2 base zerg anymore, really, even in zvz), and macro hatches, it's just not really going to do much damage, especially since ZvZ is not really larva intensive (either roach based, or massing infestor into ultras and you have a ton of hatches anyways and relying more on spines). And changelings are arguably more useful in ZvZ than in the other match-ups, so that makes contaminate still less likely to be used.
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On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. On topic: I have a hard time understanding this as well. 50/50 for being able to delay siege tech, colo range, blink, storm or production in general seems like a great ability. But no one ever blamed sc2 zerg players for being too innovative and for right reasons.
i can say the same about overseers, but u would complain, ravens are fucking good, players like bomber showed it
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It is good and under used.
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On August 11 2012 09:56 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 09:39 FairForever wrote:On August 11 2012 08:42 Picklebread wrote:
I saw a game where TLO made like 4 overseers when his lair finished and then swooped in later and delayed +1 by like 90 seconds. Its pretty good. Yeah but 4 overseers = 200/200 cost, that's expensive - you're delaying a 100/100 upgrade, but not only that, you had to spend the 200/200 before the opponent spent the 100/100. Not exactly cheap. yeah but the question isnt how much the upgrade costs but how much delaying that upgrade is worth
You're right, but the 200/200 essentially prevents you from getting your own upgrade (unless you're mining a shitload of gas, which means you're sacrificing way too many minerals) so it's not worth anything.
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1. we rarely have the 125 energy in time to delay a tech
2. it is rare that they do not have units to kill it relatively quick
3. if you are facing protoss that 50 gas (2 roaches) can be the difference from surviving and dieing the inevitable 2 base push
4. using energy for a changeling can give you much needed scouting information, which is much more useful based on the aforementioned untimely death of the overseer
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the overseer is often too slow to make it to the desired location and back safely, thus you're usually risking the overseer's life for 1 single contaminate. A 50/50 investment, then seeing minimal benefit from that investment a min and a half later. Plus you lose supply ( 150/50 loss). Essentially, if you're going to use a style that mixes in contaminates, you'll want overlord speed (100/100 upgrade). But if you're getting that and lets say 4 overseers, then now you've invested 300 gas, which is equivalent to any tech switch in the early and mid game.
This makes it only viable in the late game, but at that point you're gas stricken and having to wait a min and a half on potentially slowing down 3-3 upgrades can lose you the game vs a 3 base push.
It's a difficult ability to mix in, but if you're ahead it's a great way to diversify your lead. Going into the mid-game with an economical lead allows you to make this investment to give you a technological lead ( upgrades or unit comp).
So I wouldn't say it's entirely worthless, but it's best used when ahead. Most players tends to play standard and safe to just stay ahead rather than trying something unorthodox as quadruple overseer play though. That's why it's rarely seen in the highest level
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On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question
Ravens are amazing in TvZ. The only issue is that they insta lose to Infestors. I don't have an issue with the dmg that FG does. Plague in BW was worse, but the fact that FG can be chained makes Ravens a huge liability. I would rather invest all that gas into transitioning into a more Mech heavy lategame.
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I use overseers all the time against Terran. The thing is it's actually not often possible to time it to delay a particular tech simply because it is now 50 energy more meaning you need to make it 3 times the duration in advance as you used to in order to have enough energy to cast it in time. If that means you need to speed up your lair significantly then you're just hurting yourself more than you're hurting your opponent. The only time it can be reliably effective is in ZvZ when you contaminate the infestation pit to make your opponent spawn his first batch of infestors with 50 energy.
Against Terran however it has a very important and game changing property, which is its ability to let you kill PFs by stopping SCV's from repairing and by preventing orbitals from lifting off for 30 seconds so you can easily kill it with a ground army if your opponent is out of position. You often can recycle overseers you built to spot banshees or prepare them in advance if you know your opponent is going mech and you'll be able to do it as a counter attack with roaches.
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the energy cost is high
similar to ravens
also
+ Show Spoiler +when you have several ravens and a bunch of vikings, ultralisks came into sigh
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EPT
