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I saw a game where TLO made like 4 overseers when his lair finished and then swooped in later and delayed +1 by like 90 seconds. Its pretty good.
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quite simply, the thought doesn't enter most zergs minds because they just don't NEED to. why haven't terran REALLY pushed for a late-game air-mech composition? or an air-bio composition? because they don't NEED to. Why do 99% of protoss players not go for heavy harrass drop based play? because they don't NEED to.
innovation is split between raw creativity and desperation; in short, zerg don't contaminate because neither of those are a factor currently.
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however, well-timed contaminates (rather than just random go in hey let's slow him down a bit) would be awesome to see.
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I just realized that contaminate is kinda the same thing as entomb. Entomb prevents you from getting resources and contaminate prevents you from spending them.
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OP's random train of thoughts somehow sparkled a heavy "throw a Burrow advice" discussion.
Burrow advice = state that a player of different race does not use certain researchable ability/unit/mechanic enough. A specially in lategame.
Why didnt you post it in strategy forums?
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I was not even aware it stopped repair.
On August 11 2012 08:46 AndAgain wrote:
I just realized that contaminate is kinda the same thing as entomb. Entomb prevents you from getting resources and contaminate prevents you from spending them.
Except entomb would be significantly better, because with contaminate at least you still accumulate the minerals. If you can't accumulate minerals with entomb, your production will also stop. Unless you're cashfloating a decent amount, I suppose.
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On August 11 2012 08:52 FabledIntegral wrote:
I was not even aware it stopped repair.
That's because it doesn't.
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On August 11 2012 08:53 Fishgle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:52 FabledIntegral wrote:
I was not even aware it stopped repair. That's because it doesn't.
Well damn it then so goes that.
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On August 11 2012 07:04 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:55 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 06:51 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Don't know if this is the real reason, or if it's been said before, but my guess is this:
They just don't need to.
This is pretty much spot on. Whenever zerg has problems with something, the problems get nerfed. There's no need for zerg players to do anything new or out-of-the-box. Sometimes I wish there was a league and race icon next to everybodys nicks so you could avoid reading that balance bullshit written by scrubs
Please let this be a thing! Everyone has to link their Bnet profile to TL. It's better than linking facebook with redtube.
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I think in the midgame its one of the few things that is really really unexplored. LIke ppl said stopping plus 1, holding up a robo from producing anything, shutting down a hatchery seems like an awesome ability. I guess in the lategame you might as well use it if you have the overseers there but i dont think zerg ever really gets to the point where they have gas that cant be spent elsewhere. Also it could be an apm issue as well
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On August 11 2012 08:52 FabledIntegral wrote:I was not even aware it stopped repair. Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:46 AndAgain wrote:
I just realized that contaminate is kinda the same thing as entomb. Entomb prevents you from getting resources and contaminate prevents you from spending them. Except entomb would be significantly better, because with contaminate at least you still accumulate the minerals. If you can't accumulate minerals with entomb, your production will also stop. Unless you're cashfloating a decent amount, I suppose.
Yeah, but entomb only delays mining: you will just get your resources later. What contaminate does (in essence) is to cause you to float resources which is effectively the same thing as not having them.
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On August 11 2012 08:54 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:04 syriuszonito wrote:On August 11 2012 06:55 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 06:51 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Don't know if this is the real reason, or if it's been said before, but my guess is this:
They just don't need to.
This is pretty much spot on. Whenever zerg has problems with something, the problems get nerfed. There's no need for zerg players to do anything new or out-of-the-box. Sometimes I wish there was a league and race icon next to everybodys nicks so you could avoid reading that balance bullshit written by scrubs Please let this be a thing! Everyone has to link their Bnet profile to TL. It's better than linking facebook with redtube.
That's been brought up many times and every time the conclusion is it will only lead to pissy elitism and that it is much easier to ignore a few dumbasses.
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I would guess that it simply requires too much APM if you were to add it on top of what zergs already need to do. Zerg already seems to have its hands full macroing up and constantly scouting. Add in sending several overseers to the main base, ensuring they don't die, and making sure you keep up a chain of contaminations. Of course they could do it, but it'll probably take away APM from other tasks, which may end up being more important overall. But I guess I can't really say that, I'm not sure how much its actually been practiced. Would probably need to ask the pros
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I would agree that using it on a PF would be quite useful but what you're saying is delay your opponent so that you may hit with your timing. Well your timing will be off by quite some time since we're talking early game here and you need to get both lair and an overseer quite early for this to work.
Sure they can be explored more, but there are several games where greedy protoss players have been punished by early lair (muta-build) with an overseer that delays an upgrade or even warpgate.
Before asking yourself questions about certain units abilities then why not look at the very basics first. There's for example no reason to ever miss an inject if there is no big fights ocurring, yet this happens all the time in pro games. I'd say building random overseers early game or crafting an entire strategy around one or two comes after those things are mastered.
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On August 11 2012 07:44 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors? ...? That's irrelevant. They use them because they aren't bad. As someone who frequently uses ravens at a pretty decent level of play I can tell you that they're far from bad; they require more set-up than ht/infestor, that's why you don't see them as often. Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors? Zerg units are melee Mother of god... lings, blings, ultras. Oh, and broodlings. Roaches might as well be melee, like I said in my edit. Zergs already split their corruptors and BLs, what else do you want them to split? Hydras?
You claim Scrubwave is dodging the question (how?) yet entirely dismiss his argument by saying its irrelevant how often a unit gets used. You finally counter later on that the Raven is a situational unit that takes time and an investment of resources.
Yet unlike the other two main casters of the other races which also take time and investment resources, they are easily far more prevalent and far more used.
The question, why don't pro's use ravens more often IS important and relevant because in answering it, we can actually do something about it. Is it because they just don't see it usefulness, then perhaps we could send in your replays to coaches for ideas. If its because its situational usefulness is too narrow, then perhaps a change is necessary to expand those moments.
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On August 11 2012 08:58 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:52 FabledIntegral wrote:I was not even aware it stopped repair. On August 11 2012 08:46 AndAgain wrote:
I just realized that contaminate is kinda the same thing as entomb. Entomb prevents you from getting resources and contaminate prevents you from spending them. Except entomb would be significantly better, because with contaminate at least you still accumulate the minerals. If you can't accumulate minerals with entomb, your production will also stop. Unless you're cashfloating a decent amount, I suppose. Yeah, but entomb only delays mining: you will just get your resources later. What contaminate does (in essence) is to cause you to float resources which is effectively the same thing as not having them.
Getting the minerals later has never been a valid argument. Same argument that has been used for mules.
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On August 11 2012 05:31 Existor wrote:
Give unit-consume (1 energy per 0.5 unit health) ability for Overseer. Problem solved.
1 energy/0.5 health?? that's nuts spend 50 minerals on 2 zerglings and suddenly u have 2x contaminate.
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I have thought about its use in ZvZ maybe if you are going for a third while your opponent only two-bases it could be used to slow down possible attacks, I haven't actually tested it. But I have seen many people saying it simply takes to long to build up energy for it to be effective as a part of a build. But it's interesting, if it would be useful in any matchup I think it would be ZvZ.
One way you could also use maybe it is as a late game finisher in ZvZ if you are still both stuck on roach/hydra/infestor and you attack and just contaminate all his hatches while you continue to remax. But it also feels that many times you could put that gas on things that are more reliable and I think that's why people stay away from making like 6 Overseers late game ZvZ.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
1 energy/0.5 health?? that's nuts spend 50 minerals on 2 zerglings and suddenly u have 2x contaminate.
I did write-mistake. I meant 0.5 energy for 1 health
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On August 11 2012 09:10 wangstra wrote:
Yet unlike the other two main casters of the other races which also take time and investment resources, they are easily far more prevalent and far more used.
I thought Ghosts were the main casters...?
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EPT
