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On August 11 2012 06:55 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:51 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Don't know if this is the real reason, or if it's been said before, but my guess is this:
They just don't need to.
This is pretty much spot on. Whenever zerg has problems with something, the problems get nerfed. There's no need for zerg players to do anything new or out-of-the-box.
lol it's so true though.
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Shall we continue the raven discussion and other balance issues in another thread? Thank you.
I was thinking, is it possible to prevent a PT from building with contaminate? It could be useful for the purpose of delaying it while your lings come in and try to destroy it.
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I think there are a lot of things that on paper seem really strong that people simply don't use too often. The longer SC2 lives I think the more we will see the true power of these things.
My list:
Contaminate
Nydus worms
Recall (mothership)
Hallucination
Corruption
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On August 11 2012 05:40 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. On topic: I have a hard time understanding this as well. 50/50 for being able to delay siege tech, colo range, blink, storm or production in general seems like a great ability. But no one ever blamed sc2 zerg players for being too innovative and for right reasons. for the price of ONE RAVEN you can say yourself dozens of scans saving you thousands of minerals with those minerals you can have a much larger army and without there speed bonus the zerg cant win, especialy when you HSM all there infesters everything LOOKS good on paper, if you honestly think no zerg has ever tried to use contaminate your foolingyourself, there was a period in Zvz people used contanimate alot but they stopped because the spell is not useful
... NO ?
often you see terrans in late with to much gas and then go mass ravens ^^
if you take gas a LITTLE earlier you can go a raven and its just the gas its nearly cost so less minerals its not even worth to tell
and tousends of scans ? 2-3 scans and you got the money (min gas tech) back and also its way more usefull then scan ^^
also they not stop using it because it wasnt usefull (contaminate zvz) but because there are EASIER ways to win
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I use multiple overseers alot mainly in zvz, it is very useful
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It doesen't make a PF unrepairable. Sadly
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On August 11 2012 05:27 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
SECONDS and it makes a terran UNABLE to REPAIR the building. Wow. I can honestly say that i had no idea it kept buildings from being repaired. That would make it extremely helpful when trying to push a PF or some expo you're trying to snipe
Does contaminate actually stop repairs? I feel like people would actually use it a lot if it did...
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On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)?
Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you.
And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work; the problem is that it has a short window of time that it was effective, and Stephano was able to make it happen during that short window.
As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee or really short ranged for the most part. Splitting melee/short range units decreases their dps. Splitting marines/marauders does not decrease their dps. That is why you don't see Zergs doing it often; splitting your banelings often results in them just dying before they hit anything. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time.
Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded.
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On August 11 2012 06:58 Wakimomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:27 reneg wrote:On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
SECONDS and it makes a terran UNABLE to REPAIR the building. Wow. I can honestly say that i had no idea it kept buildings from being repaired. That would make it extremely helpful when trying to push a PF or some expo you're trying to snipe If you go in with mutas + overseer contaminate the turrets and no repair on them ( i'm not sure if they even shoot while contaminated either)
You can't contaminate turrets. Havn't been able to since beta when it was on the corruptor.
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On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors?
...? That's irrelevant. They use them because they aren't bad. As someone who frequently uses ravens at a pretty decent level of play I can tell you that they're far from bad; they require more set-up than ht/infestor, that's why you don't see them as often.
On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors? Mother of god... lings, blings, ultras. Oh, and broodlings.
Roaches might as well be melee, like I said in my edit. Zergs already split their corruptors and BLs, what else do you want them to split? Hydras?
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
I've been ranting about this for a while 
They are really good in ZvZ and still surprised its not standard by now (Although I can count a stupid amount of times I've lost all my lings to a bane because I was using contaminate...)
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On August 11 2012 05:27 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
SECONDS and it makes a terran UNABLE to REPAIR the building. Wow. I can honestly say that i had no idea it kept buildings from being repaired. That would make it extremely helpful when trying to push a PF or some expo you're trying to snipe
I actually wasn't aware of this either. That is pretty awesome because those PF's can be a real annoyance for Zergs until they get enough number of ultras.
Good to know.
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On August 11 2012 07:48 Scrubwave wrote:
How many pro zerg players do splits?
On corruptors and Broods?
Every ZvP?
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On August 11 2012 07:48 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:44 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors? ...? That's irrelevant. They use them because they aren't bad. As someone who frequently uses ravens at a pretty decent level of play I can tell you that they're far from bad; they require more set-up than ht/infestor, that's why you don't see them as often. On August 11 2012 07:41 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. And no, Stephano did none of that. DRG was a better ling+infestor user during that period, and the 12:00 roach max was perfected by Stephano, other Zergs were trying to make a similar style work. As for splitting units: Zerg units are melee. Splitting melee units decreases their dps. Splitting marines does not decrease their dps. DRG, Stephano, and several other Zergs have been splitting units when it's a good idea for a long time. Stop trying to make your race look superior, it's retarded. Which top-tier terrans use ravens as often as pro tosses use hts and pro zergs use infestors? Zerg units are melee Mother of god... lings, blings, ultras. Oh, and broodlings. Roaches might as well be melee, like I said in my edit. Zergs already split their corruptors and BLs, what else do you want them to split? Hydras which they never make? I'd say that how often and how much of a unit is used in match-ups is a pretty good indicative of how good the unit is.
I like how you dodge any logic, reasoning, or questions and spout out pointless 1 liners. No, it isn't. If that was the case hydras would have been a good unit in ZvP when the standard was Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. People innovate and strategies change. And the raven really isn't all that rare to see, even now. Like I said, it takes time to make a raven fleet, not all games gives you that time. Some end early, some require you to pour your resources into other things. Situational =/= bad.
On August 11 2012 07:51 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:48 Scrubwave wrote:
How many pro zerg players do splits? On corruptors and Broods? Every ZvP?
Yeah... this guy is either trolling or delusional. If Zergs weren't splitting in ZvP toss would be winning in the late-game nearly 100% of the time.
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I use it a lot in zvz bc delaying that larvae is amazing to get you from behind to ahead in a short period of time
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Because they really don't need to.
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timing wise, the contaminate takes a long time to accumulate the energy. contaminate used to be pretty common when overseers started with more energy. i do agree that contaminate for UPGRADES and other RESEARCHES can be very devastating
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EPT
