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Why the hell is the OP saying it prevents something from being repaired? contaminate prevents abilities from being used by the structure, not ON the structure.
It's not used much anymore because it costs so much energy — makes for slower timings and just more difficult to use. I don't like that change and really don't think it was necessary.
Aside from that, it reduces the number of overlords that drop creep or transport units.
Contaminate's always been a rather crappy ability along with corruption (much worse), I wish they would renovate it to something completely new. AT the least make contaminate work on any unit, not just structures — that would be a reasonable change.
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People should start using it, you just can hide like 5 overseers and then come to the enemy base and start spamming it, its not that bad specially early game where the enemy may not have enough defense
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On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question
Because it's insanely more expensive than overseers. Not just resource wise, but even more costly in time. I'm not saying ravens don't have a place in t v z, but I am saying you cannot compare its lack of use to the lack of use of contaminate. Figuring out how to get ravens into the metagame is way more complicated than using contaminate. Agreed completely with the OP btw, the strategic depth behind overseers is quite massive people just need to tinker with it.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Overseer contaminate some time ago prevented CC from using MULEs and scan. Don't know how it's now
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Confirmed, it does NOT stop repair, but it does stop CC scanning/MULEs
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On August 11 2012 06:22 darkrage14 wrote:
Confirmed, it does NOT stop repair, but it does stop CC scanning/MULEs
I dread for protoss players if the Stephano style roach aggression also had contaminates going off on the robo to delay immortal production. THere are so many other uses for the spell and it's so cheap resource wise to get out on the field (though quite expensive in time).
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contaminate was useful a long time ago when it was 75 energy because you didn't have to wait so long for the energy to build up and could contaminate 2 buildings on a single pass if you waited. Very good for delaying grades but the nerf of 125 energy made it take too long and by that time the player has moved on to more macro/positional maneuvers. I'm sure there is a place for it to come back but it requires much more preparation to build up the energy and forethought, at the moment the overseer is utilized for quick scout intel or defensive decloaking vision. I wouldn't be sad if they removed the glorified scouting unit, its something you get because you have too not because its going to help like an infestor - although I'm sure you could build a strategy around lings and overseers but that's very situation.
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It's the same reason why every Protoss doesn't cannon rush against Zerg. All you think about is "Think how much I can set my opponent back", but completely ignore how much you're setting yourself back to do it.
Think of all the tech that you'd want to slow down. Now think of the timing for it to hit with standard play. Now subtract 4 minutes from that time. That's when you need to start morphing Lair tech, including the gas investment.
That basically means that you're not stopping any important Toss tech timings, and you're still pushing it for Terran.
And unlike rushing Infestor tech or Spire tech, you're rushing for a delay tactic, which provides no way of actually dealing damage, or defending against units.
If the argument was that late game Contaminates could be useful for slowing remaxes and 3/3 upgrades, I'd agree. Delaying timings? Not a chance. Delaying Blink by 30 seconds sounds cool, but the early gas and rushed lair basically means your defence will be crushed by a normal 6-gate, no Blink required.
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I use Contaminate, but in the lategame or even midgame, every units of gas counts. I dont feel that making several Overseers is worth it, because theyre too slow, and getting OL speed just for that purpose is usually not affordable in an even game.
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On August 11 2012 05:27 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
SECONDS and it makes a terran UNABLE to REPAIR the building. Wow. I can honestly say that i had no idea it kept buildings from being repaired. That would make it extremely helpful when trying to push a PF or some expo you're trying to snipe
lol, now i imagine some sick 2 base roach all in with anti-repair shit.
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On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
and for curious people:
I'm not a High master Terran on EU.
Curious ending. You've eliminated one possible rank -- should we guess?
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On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair?
Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why:
- 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy.
- in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this.
The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy.
How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)?
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On August 11 2012 06:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It's the same reason why every Protoss doesn't cannon rush against Zerg. All you think about is "Think how much I can set my opponent back", but completely ignore how much you're setting yourself back to do it.
Think of all the tech that you'd want to slow down. Now think of the timing for it to hit with standard play. Now subtract 4 minutes from that time. That's when you need to start morphing Lair tech, including the gas investment.
That basically means that you're not stopping any important Toss tech timings, and you're still pushing it for Terran.
And unlike rushing Infestor tech or Spire tech, you're rushing for a delay tactic, which provides no way of actually dealing damage, or defending against units.
If the argument was that late game Contaminates could be useful for slowing remaxes and 3/3 upgrades, I'd agree. Delaying timings? Not a chance. Delaying Blink by 30 seconds sounds cool, but the early gas and rushed lair basically means your defence will be crushed by a normal 6-gate, no Blink required.
This is pretty much spot on.
Although I would like to see an attempt at a mass overseer strategy once Zerg reaches the doom composition vs Protoss with a huge bank...
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On August 11 2012 06:31 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:27 reneg wrote:On August 11 2012 05:24 Wakimomo wrote:
SECONDS and it makes a terran UNABLE to REPAIR the building. Wow. I can honestly say that i had no idea it kept buildings from being repaired. That would make it extremely helpful when trying to push a PF or some expo you're trying to snipe lol, now i imagine some sick 2 base roach all in with anti-repair shit.
you dont ahve to repair tanks to make them own roachs
besides how are you supposed to get lair, get an oversee, get contaminate, still have a dangerous amont of roachs before they have tanks and marauders?
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There was actually a game in which Coca used mass contaminate against Naniwa if I'm not mistaken.
It was in the MLG where Coca ended up in the finals against Bomber, maybe Raleigh in 2011 or the one after. I think he made a lot of overseer and spammed contaminate on Naniwa's building right before pushing with infestor, to delay some important things.
Now, it was at a time where Coca outplayed completely every protoss so maybe he was able to do everything he wanted anyway, but I remember that I was completely shocked during this game.
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Contaminate is good vs midgame robos/twilight council/factories
and good for lategame PFs, ebays, starports, or to prevent opponent's remax.
If you both have a lot of bank (which actually happens a lot in long games). Go past max and make ~10 overseers or however many are managable. Have ovie speed ofcourse, and look for key structures. You can run changelings through his base if you need to find the structures. Like nothing is worse than a mothership that takes 3x as long to come out because you keep harassing with overseers.
Overseers are pretty awesome actually! Very underused imo. Ive been making a lot more past week and havnt turned back.
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On August 11 2012 06:36 ColtraneL wrote:
There is actually a game in which Coca uses mass contaminate against Naniwa if I'm not mistaken.
It was in the MLG where Coca ended up in the finals against Bomber, maybe Raleigh in 2011 or the one after. I think he made a lot of overseer and spammed contaminate on Naniwa's building right before pushing with infestor, to delay some important things.
Now, it was at a time where Coca outplayed completely every protoss so maybe he was able to do everything he wanted anyway, but I remember that I was completely shocked during this game.
hongun used carriers early in the GSL and won a game with them doesnt make them viable
especially since 2 years later noone figured out an effective build aside from extremely late game PVZ
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it has some good uses, just keep flying 2 in and use it on both starports and robo's. it can delay the other races counter to broods which can win games
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On August 11 2012 06:37 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:36 ColtraneL wrote:
There is actually a game in which Coca uses mass contaminate against Naniwa if I'm not mistaken.
It was in the MLG where Coca ended up in the finals against Bomber, maybe Raleigh in 2011 or the one after. I think he made a lot of overseer and spammed contaminate on Naniwa's building right before pushing with infestor, to delay some important things.
Now, it was at a time where Coca outplayed completely every protoss so maybe he was able to do everything he wanted anyway, but I remember that I was completely shocked during this game. hongun used carriers early in the GSL and won a game with them doesnt make them viable especially since 2 years later noone figured out an effective build aside from extremely late game PVZ
I don't think it is quite the same thing. Building carriers is a huge part of your build, but using contaminate is a simple action which can in some situations give you the win.
I don't say that the fact that Coca crushed a protoss in one game with it makes it viable as a strategy, but it points out that this ability shouldn't be overlooked, it can definitely be useful in many games.
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Because I don't like gimmicky plays. And that is what the contaminate ability is all about. Energy expensive, gimmicky and rely on weird plays. Most people would rather be a solid standard player.
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EPT
