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Contaminate used to be quite common and popular in ZvZ before the nerf. Overseers used to be used to check for spire play, and while doing so they would usually delay the hatchery from spawning larvae. Later on, excess gas would often be invested into extra overseers which would swoop in regularly to delay larvae. Then the energy cost was nerfed, and playstyles have changed as well:
- better indirect scouting (watching the front of the base, looking for the 3rd timing) means rushing to lair for overseer scouting is less critical
- delayed gases for more mineral income in the early-midgame, this delays lair timings and also means less excess gas to spend on overseers.
- faster third and macro hatches reduce the impact of missing an occasional inject
- more queens and/or muta play can give overseers problems
Also, I just ran a game against the AI to test how long it took to get an overseer ready to contaminate. From when I started the overseer to when it had enough energy took 2m31s. That is a long to time have to invest your 50 gas without any return. If you use the overseer to scout (as most do) it will likely take damage preventing you from doing a second pass later on to do the contaminate.
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On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you.
Like taeja? Who made 0 ravens in the lategame in his game against idra on entombed (asus rog)? Or are we talking about gumiho, who also doesn't build them?
A good zerg will never let the ravens get to 125 energy. You need a damn sick economy to support raven production (starports, upgrades for the raven), and then you need a sick amount of time to build up the energy. It just doesn't work, unless the zerg fucks up. Then when you got them to 125 energy, you need 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. You also need a zerg that doesn't fungal the ravens. And after casting the HSM, the raven is 1) dead, 2) useless.
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it is a question about mind micro, you can do alot of things, the question is can you remember them all in the midst of a battlefield. You could run in 2 banelings into expansions that you know are undefended and burrow them there if the opponent pulls workers, getting rid of those takes alot of effort ... and if they don't notice and 1 mineral move their workers in the right spot for your banelings ...
You can produce Broodlings with an active creep tumor (attack cancel repeat, if you are fast you can send 3 waves of broodlings to the opponents army no need for infested terrans to draw tank fire, you can attack like swarm hosts that way and the first 9 range are invulnerable and can pass cliffs and airspace), or shoot attack creep tumors when the opponent attacks to create broodlings pre fight (voidray precharge like ftw !).
The list is pretty much endless and shows how much potential each unit still has. But most training revolves around not thinking. While these neat tricks tax your mind pretty heavily. Like keeping this one raven alive, because every minute it stays alive it will save you money and add valuable scouts in form of auto turrets. Or in combo with banshees you have complete mapcontrol until t2 of the zerg is out a few minutes.
You could even put medivacs on one control group and kite away fungal damage, so no marine will die. (otherwise medivacs will focus till their marine is full and you lose all marines - your medivac count). Not that you should a move marines against fungal anyway, since magic box moving + hold posi will negate fungal from being usefull against marines.
So yes there are alot of cute moves, but they are low on the priority list and often there is so much going on for the players that they don't get that far down on their list. Guess people prefer to make only a few things but those perfect.
But don't worry we will get there, it took a year including the beta, for zergs to start using burrow a bit.
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I remember a quite fun game on Tal'Darim Alter where I Spine Crawler rushed a FFE'ing Protoss player, since I got the fast Lair anyways i morphed 2-3 Overseers and because I was able to delay Warpgate by destroying the Cybernetics Core with the Spine Crawlers first, and then when he made another Cybernetics Core in his base i used the previously morphed Overseers to Contaminate Warpgate forever so in the end I just overwhelmed him with Roaches while he QQ'd about Overseers being imbalanced! ^ – ^ Good Times !
Not sure why it's really not used that much though, I mean could definitely see this as an answer to some of the Sentry-Immortal timings that Zerg are struggling with at the moment.
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On August 11 2012 07:01 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 06:59 ArcticRaven wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. On topic: I have a hard time understanding this as well. 50/50 for being able to delay siege tech, colo range, blink, storm or production in general seems like a great ability. But no one ever blamed sc2 zerg players for being too innovative and for right reasons. I love this hidden balance whine. Sweet Terran tears. Saying that a unit is bad is not a balance whine. Either present your case (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359152¤tpage=50) or shut the hell up.
I was more talking about your comment on Zerg innovation. But well, whatever man, it is as off topic as all of your posts.
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Also, I just ran a game against the AI to test how long it took to get an overseer ready to contaminate. From when I started the overseer to when it had enough energy took 2m31s. That is a long to time have to invest your 50 gas without any return. If you use the overseer to scout (as most do) it will likely take damage preventing you from doing a second pass later on to do the contaminate.
Dont forget that the Energy at the beginning is most often used for a scouting changeling, so it will take longer than 2:31. In addition to a quite late lair, most crucial upgrades (stim, combat shields, warpgate tech, siege tech, blue flame, cloak,..) are already done
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The energy costs with it are very high and it doesn't do an incredible amount of production damage against opponents.
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On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair?
The ravens shoot brood lings out of the air .
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On August 11 2012 08:17 ShakAttaK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? The ravens shoot brood lings out of the air .
Incorrect, this was fixed back in beta.
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On August 11 2012 07:07 Starshaped wrote:
I think there are a lot of things that on paper seem really strong that people simply don't use too often. The longer SC2 lives I think the more we will see the true power of these things.
My list:
Contaminate
Nydus worms
Recall (mothership)
Hallucination
Corruption
No (too much energy now), no (costs too much money, dies way to easily, is too noticeable, unloads zerglings slowly), no (not that underused when motherships are built), maybe (forcefield and guardian are just as strong or likely stronger than hallucination), no (not underused, but still a terrible ability even if it's strong)
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On August 11 2012 08:01 zylog wrote:
Contaminate used to be quite common and popular in ZvZ before the nerf.
Sums it up nicely.
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Because it got nerfed before any problems were found to it.
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Y'know, I didn't know about the repair thing, but thats really awesome, if a Terran doesn't go heavy on Missile Turrets you can go in with the Contaminate to prevent repairs and forcibly open up a hole in their defensives for your Mutalisks.
Thats a really big deal, I do wonder why nobody uses Contaminate, it probably comes down to not being used to using it and using it generally doesn't fit into their mindset, but its something more Zergs could really stand to do, 30 seconds of delayed production time and an unrepairable building is a great thing, especially for something as paltry as an Overseer.
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On August 11 2012 08:23 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 08:17 ShakAttaK wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? The ravens shoot brood lings out of the air . Incorrect, this was fixed back in beta.
Yes, still you find tons of Zerg posts claiming it still does. You find even more that promote the power of PDD to stop roaches.
@FlaminGinjaNinja
If HSM is so excellent, we Terrans would trade it for your fungal every day. Just say the word.. we also take the complete spell package... just saying...
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On August 11 2012 08:06 xeqwist wrote:
Not sure why it's really not used that much though, I mean could definitely see this as an answer to some of the Sentry-Immortal timings that Zerg are struggling with at the moment. Any overseers made on typical 3 base zerg builds wouldn't be able to contaminate anything until about the 11 minute mark, which I strongly doubt would be early enough.
Sentry immortal builds already do somewhat poorly against zergling-baneling-muta, so I don't really see much necessity to somehow come up with an alternative.
Y'know, I didn't know about the repair thing, but thats really awesome, if a Terran doesn't go heavy on Missile Turrets you can go in with the Contaminate to prevent repairs and forcibly open up a hole in their defensives for your Mutalisks.
Thats a really big deal, I do wonder why nobody uses Contaminate, it probably comes down to not being used to using it and using it generally doesn't fit into their mindset, but its something more Zergs could really stand to do, 30 seconds of delayed production time and an unrepairable building is a great thing, especially for something as paltry as an Overseer.
SO MANY IDIOTS posting so many different things, but namely posts such as this (i'm not attacking this poster, but rather all people who made dumb posts without mentioning names aside from him).
The thread is about why contaminate isn't used — try reading it before you say " durr I just dunt know why these zergs don't use contamun8!"
Aside from that, if you did your own research and/or read other posts you'd know that contaminate does NOT prevent repairing — the OP is just misinformed and spreading terrible information.
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Does contaminate disable PF?
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personally I hardly use it because I don't have the energy, and when I do I find changelings a lot more useful. I just reflexively always hit c when I select my overseers and then rally the changeling around their base.
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On August 11 2012 08:03 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:39 Skwid1g wrote:On August 11 2012 06:32 Snowbear wrote:On August 11 2012 05:38 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 11 2012 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:33 apm66 wrote:On August 11 2012 05:30 Scrubwave wrote:On August 11 2012 05:27 Forikorder wrote:
why do terrans not use Ravens?
much more important question Because it's very mediocre if not bad. Wait until pros start using it in every game, it won't be so mediocre then. Hahaha, what the hell? Shouldn't you take this raven gud bs to some other thread to have your "arguments" get destroyed there? Ravens are fine, just because you don't/ can't use them doesn't mean they are bad. HSM is excellent, PDD is a good support spell, auto turret provides a harass capability and it's a detector. What else do you want, for it to fly!? On topic, I play Z and I honistly just forget about contaminate, I didn't know about the repair thing but now I'll make an effort to use it. I would have thought ZvZ would see the most use, followed by PvZ (delay warp gate on an FFE while going mutas to justify the fast lair? Please don't say that the raven is fine! HSM sucks, and let me explain why: - 125 energy, 1 raven can launch it only 1 time in a battle, and it takes forever to get to the 125 energy. - in the perfect world, where the zerg doesn't fungal the ravens, you can cast the HSM's, and GUESS WHAT: it takes 2 HSM's to kill 1 broodlord. Yes, it takes 2 ravens to kill 1 broodlord. I can ask my opponent to clump up his broodlords, but smart zergs don't do this. The fact that zergs are not using contamine says a lot to me. Contamine on important buildings like starports and factories is strong. But hey, not a single zerg did this to me. Why? Because I guess that stephano needs to show it to them. It took untill stephano before the infestor ling style became a used strategy. It took untill stephano before the 12:00 roach max in zvp became a used strategy. How long will it take before zergs start dropping burrowed infestors and speedlings (lategame)? How long will it take before zergs will split their units (atm it's all nestea style: everything in 1 hotkey and 1a in a tight ball, so tanks have a party)? Except top-tier Terrans disagree with you. Like taeja? Who made 0 ravens in the lategame in his game against idra on entombed (asus rog)? Or are we talking about gumiho, who also doesn't build them? .
TaeJa uses Ravens, it's a newer thing but late late late late late late late late late game vZ (like think split metropolis) he starts replacing supply with them. Get's HSM and all the fun stuff (building armor, etc). Just because he did not use them vs IdrA does not mean he does not use them.
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Contaminate can be used on a nexus building a mothership, but idk if its possible to get an overseer that deep in the protoss base aside from maps like daybreak and ohana.
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EPT
