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On August 12 2012 09:16 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:52 zmansman17 wrote:On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units  Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out response... You do realize that this game is not simple enough to even list off AA units and what they counter, which you barely did. A counter to carriers may be just a shit ton of zerglings, which run passed and eliminate the Protoss player. You can't just make a simple enumerable list of units, although even if you did do that, I think the Zerg has Excellent AA. I think the idea of AA requires a more holistic understanding of the game conceptually. Considering queens, the transfuse ability, the best late game scouting (vastly spread creep, changelings, overseers), Zerg can really just produce whichever unit is needed to counter the opposing player. And all of these counters are produced from the same building (no added infrastructure is needed aside from 1 of the tech buildings). For these reasons, Zerg, in my opinion, has Excellent AA. Mutas cost 100/100 and have less DPS than a marine Corruptors cost 150/100 have equal DPS of a marine, and if they're attacking massive they do the same DPS of a marine with stim Queens cost 150 mins and are countered by ghosts (emp + snipe are huge) and tanks are good. Same with HSM. Hydras: lol Spores: Barely mobile, cheap + amazing AA though Infestors: The only reason that we can survive against lategame air. Just my thoughts!
DPS is the wrong way of looking at it. Usually you focus fire with Corruptors and one shot stuff.
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On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:its not like teaja has insane micro
You serious?
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On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.
Not to mention, it is only taeja that is succeeding in that matchup. All of the other top terrans are still struggling. I think someone mentioned a few pages back how fruitdealer and some one else (can't remember his name) did extremely well in GSLs back in season one. Why did zerg get buffed then, since one person was still doing just fine in all of the matchups.
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On August 12 2012 10:04 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed. Not to mention, it is only taeja that is succeeding in that matchup. All of the other top terrans are still struggling. I think someone mentioned a few pages back how fruitdealer and some one else (can't remember his name) did extremely well in GSLs back in season one. Why did zerg get buffed then, since one person was still doing just fine in all of the matchups.
In super lategame terran is the best race, but the problem is getting there, especially against Zerg. And then there is still this zerg move that isn't used alot, which is go up to 230 supply. just image the normal infestors count with 15 additional infestors.
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On August 12 2012 10:19 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:04 convention wrote:On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed. Not to mention, it is only taeja that is succeeding in that matchup. All of the other top terrans are still struggling. I think someone mentioned a few pages back how fruitdealer and some one else (can't remember his name) did extremely well in GSLs back in season one. Why did zerg get buffed then, since one person was still doing just fine in all of the matchups. In super lategame terran is the best race, but the problem is getting there, especially against Zerg. And then there is still this zerg move that isn't used alot, which is go up to 230 supply. just image the normal infestors count with 15 additional infestors.
I actually think every race has a unique advantage in the super super late game, and is relatively even for each race (most of the stats of 45+ minutes games are within the uncertainty of 50/50). Protoss can build up to 40 some gateways and be reinforcing with 40 more zealots throughout the fight, making that gateway buffer last so much longer. Terran can mine with only MULEs and have a 180 supply army. Zerg can mass up larvae at each base and remax quickly with low tier units to try to overrun the leftovers after a fight (along with getting up to 230 supply as well!).
EDIT: But yes, terran and protoss have the hardest time getting there. That is why you really only see terran mining with Mules/protoss with lots of WGs is in the TvP matchup and rarely in the ZvX matchups.
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On August 12 2012 01:57 Shiori wrote:
There is currently no way to trade with BL/Infestor.
If thats true there is no reason to implement a change that we already know will cause another problem. The solution, if it is necessary should adress the late game rather than throwing a spanner in works of the currently balanced mid game.
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On August 12 2012 10:50 734pot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 01:57 Shiori wrote:
There is currently no way to trade with BL/Infestor. If thats true there is no reason to implement a change that we already know will cause another problem. The solution, if it is necessary should adress the late game rather than throwing a spanner in works of the currently balanced mid game.
Which is why most of the focus is on the Raven right now.
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On August 12 2012 05:42 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:27 4Servy wrote:
Raven vs lategame zerg is like buying a masserati for a suicide bomber.
Interesting analogy. However, there's no guarantee it will even serve its purpose as a "suicide bomber".
To build on that, Raven vs Lategame zerg is like buying a Masserati for a suicide bombing and then driving it through an NRA convention while wearing a Turban.
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On August 12 2012 10:50 734pot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 01:57 Shiori wrote:
There is currently no way to trade with BL/Infestor. If thats true there is no reason to implement a change that we already know will cause another problem. The solution, if it is necessary should adress the late game rather than throwing a spanner in works of the currently balanced mid game.
I'd say we should do both, and not because of midgame balance. The reason we need to fuck with the midgame is that it's boring as hell and extremely predictable.
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On August 12 2012 10:19 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:04 convention wrote:On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed. Not to mention, it is only taeja that is succeeding in that matchup. All of the other top terrans are still struggling. I think someone mentioned a few pages back how fruitdealer and some one else (can't remember his name) did extremely well in GSLs back in season one. Why did zerg get buffed then, since one person was still doing just fine in all of the matchups. In super lategame terran is the best race, but the problem is getting there, especially against Zerg. And then there is still this zerg move that isn't used alot, which is go up to 230 supply. just image the normal infestors count with 15 additional infestors.
i don't think you'll see that ever again, because zergs finally figured out that spine crawlers are pretty good
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On August 12 2012 11:17 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:50 734pot wrote:On August 12 2012 01:57 Shiori wrote:
There is currently no way to trade with BL/Infestor. If thats true there is no reason to implement a change that we already know will cause another problem. The solution, if it is necessary should adress the late game rather than throwing a spanner in works of the currently balanced mid game. Which is why most of the focus is on the Raven right now.
Ravens are good units by themselves in a vacuum. If you take a look at their abilities, they're all solid abilities. It's just that in a real game, it's not really good.
They cost a lot of money, and can only be created one at a time (aka you can spam create ravens like you can templars and infestors - even if it's 1 larva / 1 gateway per)
They are/were too slow to really make a difference because HSM range is stupidly low and can get sniped by fungals really freaking easily
To transition to them, you really need to be left alone for awhile, and you have to stop to make medivacs/vikings
turrets do stupid little damage against IT and isn't really worth the cost.
HSM, while very strong, honestly work on people who clump up their units. It's like if Terrans complain about not being able to just 1A into a collossi ball/storms, well if they do, they're just going to die. If any decent player even splits up their broodlords, HSM start becoming cost inefficient
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On August 12 2012 11:25 Shiori wrote:
I'd say we should do both, and not because of midgame balance. The reason we need to fuck with the midgame is that it's boring as hell and extremely predictable.
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT).
On August 12 2012 11:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
Which is why most of the focus is on the Raven right now.
Yes I think this is definitely the best way to proceed, I just think its going to be a very difficult thing to balance due to the excellent utility of the infestor against both air and ground compositions, which is needed in the midgame but can perhaps be a bit too good in the late game.
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On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT).
I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened.
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On August 12 2012 12:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT). I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened.
That could work as it would give zerg decent, mobile anti air and the ability to fight against balls of ranged units (that greatly negate effectiveness of melee or short ranged units) without the requirement of the micro-negating aspect of fungal growth, which allows banelings to be somewhat cost effective ZvT and stops protoss derping on a million blink stalkers that never die. Though I don't really see how this could be achieved. Any sort of increase in survivability could just make them way too strong and a speed increase still doesn't stop them being dumped on by tanks and colossus.
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On August 12 2012 13:14 734pot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 12:57 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT). I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened. That could work as it would give zerg decent, mobile anti air and the ability to fight against balls of ranged units (that greatly negate effectiveness of melee or short ranged units) without the requirement of the micro-negating aspect of fungal growth, which allows banelings to be somewhat cost effective ZvT and stops protoss derping on a million blink stalkers that never die. Though I don't really see how this could be achieved.
Decreasing its cost, I think. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Hydralisk being a glass cannon, but not at the current price.
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On August 12 2012 13:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:14 734pot wrote:On August 12 2012 12:57 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT). I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened. That could work as it would give zerg decent, mobile anti air and the ability to fight against balls of ranged units (that greatly negate effectiveness of melee or short ranged units) without the requirement of the micro-negating aspect of fungal growth, which allows banelings to be somewhat cost effective ZvT and stops protoss derping on a million blink stalkers that never die. Though I don't really see how this could be achieved. Decreasing its cost, I think. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Hydralisk being a glass cannon, but not at the current price.
Wouldn't that make them way too powerful before T and P get any sort of AoE out? I'm not really sure how good they would be once T and P get some AoE out, its sort of rediculous how quickly they die to tanks and storm/colossus, sometimes it seems that they don't get any respectable damage off at all.
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On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT).
Hive rushes (for rushing straight to brood lords, I'm guessing is your question) with a lot of spines can be punished with a maxed blink stalker immortal with ~6 sentries, or just a good 2-3 colossus timing, since the zerg won't have enough money for a lot of infestors and will be stuck on roaches for a bit too long to be safe against such a push. The spines really don't mean much to a maxed 2 base protoss push with 5 immortals or 3 colossus, sentries and plenty of blink stalkers with a 7 gateways to reinforce.
Of course it hasn't been explored very much since hive rushing has taken up popularity pretty recently, but spines don't make the zerg instantly safe.
On August 12 2012 12:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT). I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened.
I wouldn't say hydralisks aren't "viable". Yes, it's not very strong to do the traditional roach hydra mid game army as a main strategy, since that's mostly been figured out. Hydralisks are still a great option for certain aggressive timings to punish greedy protosses. Two situations off the top of my head are when the protoss goes stargate for more harass and protection against mutas, and when the protoss takes an early third. In both cases the protoss is relying on only blink stalkers, sentries, and immortals, and doesn't have enough money or time to get colossus yet (and still be safe against a quick roach max). Of course this aggressive use of hydralisks is risky since you can still be forcefielded and hydralisks have a hard time retreating, but it can be very rewarding to take advantage of weaknesses in certain protoss builds.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 12 2012 13:36 Doomball wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT).
Hive rushes (for rushing straight to brood lords, I'm guessing is your question) with a lot of spines can be punished with a maxed blink stalker immortal with ~6 sentries, or just a good 2-3 colossus timing, since the zerg won't have enough money for a lot of infestors and will be stuck on roaches for a bit too long to be safe against such a push. The spines really don't mean much to a maxed 2 base protoss push with 5 immortals or 3 colossus, sentries and plenty of blink stalkers with a 7 gateways to reinforce. Of course it hasn't been explored very much since hive rushing has taken up popularity pretty recently, but spines don't make the zerg instantly safe. Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 12:57 TheDwf wrote:On August 12 2012 12:42 734pot wrote:
I agree with that, but I don't see how zerg being steamrolled by void ray colossus would be at all interesting and any less predictable. It would be nice if zerg didn't have to mass static defence and rush to hive, something that i find incredibly boring, but since it is the most reliable way that i can find to win, I don't plan to stop it any time soon. In my opinion the game would be much better if zerg had some sort of AoE or ranged attack that isn't energy based and either terribly bad or terribly good (the infestor) or just plain terribly bad (the hydra or roach ZvT). I don't think anyone would have problems making the Hydralisk a valid unit if the Infestor was to be weakened. I wouldn't say hydralisks aren't "viable". Yes, it's not very strong to do the traditional roach hydra mid game army as a main strategy, since that's mostly been figured out. Hydralisks are still a great option for certain aggressive timings to punish greedy protosses. Two situations off the top of my head are when the protoss goes stargate for more harass and protection against mutas, and when the protoss takes an early third. In both cases the protoss is relying on only blink stalkers, sentries, and immortals, and doesn't have enough money or time to get colossus yet (and still be safe against a quick roach max). Of course this aggressive use of hydralisks is risky since you can still be forcefielded and hydralisks have a hard time retreating, but it can be very rewarding to take advantage of weaknesses in certain protoss builds.
To be entirely honest with you, as a protoss player all I want in the PvZ matchup is to be able to get into lategame without relying on a vortex and putting archons into it to win.
I can try the air transition but its so difficult and air units are generally not the most viable thing come a certain point in the game. So you need to upgrade units you werent using in mid game because they frankly aren't super effective at that time and the build time on units such as the carrier are too long to be of worth should the zerg attack you while you are trying to trade supply for it.
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How about to include into Hi-sec auto-tracking (range for turrets upgrade) HSM?
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EPT
