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Northern Ireland23674 Posts
On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Once Z players adapt to the newer gimmicky builds, they'll likely come out on top by a significant margin. Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:49 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 16:34 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing. If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger. Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced. Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War? Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup? How you seriously believe the match-up is balanced when Z has a virtual free third in the match-up while also having superior economic growth, better late game, and map control through creep and vision with watch tower control + OLs is beyond me. The combination of buffs, nerfs, and terrible maps (yes, they are TERRIBLE) results in what we see today. Now I know that you're really dumb. Ghosts were never overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. They were only useful in split map situations, on maps like Shakuras or Metro. They couldn't be used when behind at all, because they were so god awfully cost inefficient unless you killed like 30 Ultras or Blords. The statistics in TLPD support this statement to, which only demonstrates that not only are you hiding your biased, you're also real bad at hiding it. READ: THERE WAS NEVER A FUCKING ERA OF OP GHOSTS RAPING Z'S LEFT AND RIGHT; EVER. THE TLPD BACKS THIS STATEMENT.
Really sick of dumb people who are ignorant or just straight up lying. Terran doesn't do many gimmicky builds in BW unless you're talking about early 2000 era when the entire TvZ match-up was based on 5/6 rax Sunken busting a Z off 1 base. Let me ask you a question; why did Blizzard decide to completely fuck the entire match-up for no reason when across the entire board among international players and korean players, TvZ was deadlocked at 50/50? Who needs rational discussion when you can cap and bold, I guess. To answer your question, I assume the only possible reason for every Terran nerf and Zerg buff is a personal vendetta that David Kim and Dustin Browder have against you and/or all Terran players? Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable.
I don't even get why you're continuing to argue this point. Most posters have been reasonable as they explain their issues with the patch and most of the Zergs either ignore that the patch has ruined a good matchup. If the game was statistically pretty damn close to balanced in Korea why did Zerg get the Queen buff in the first place?
It's bizarre, Terran got their ghost-based army that can deal with BL/Infestor nerfed, then shortly after that Zerg got the tools in which they can get to their lategame more stably. TvZ is starting to look more and more like PvZ, which is irritating. Blizzard should be trying to make more of the matchups resemble TvT/old TvZ.
Regardless of balance or not, the direction the game is going is just bad. There's barely any midgame anymore in half the matches I see, it's a turtle up and go straight to hivetech or whatever your race's equivalent is.
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On August 21 2012 16:56 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Oh, I see, a bunker and some marines is "very risky". I guess if you've convinced yourself of that, you can convince yourself of nearly anything. Show nested quote +Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable. Called out? My favorite team is TSL, my icon is Zerg, it doesn't take a genius to figure out I play Zerg. However, Snipe was nerfed specifically for TvZ because it was imbalanced. Maybe you think it was all part of the conspiracy against Terran, though.
What?
A bunker, 6 helions, a scv, and a banshee + Marines is heavy investment, if you lose the Helions/Marines without forcing the Z to expend alot of larvae, you might as well just fucking quit the game.
Snipe was nerfed because shitty Z players like you cried after Nestea lost a game to MVP. That was it. The amount of crying was simply unbelievable, even though objective people (*gasp* like Destiny) pointed out that Nestea had every opportunity to simply kill MVP before he established the infrastructure to get to Ghosts. Ghosts never were OP; period. Anyone that keeps saying that they are imbalanced are the same people who believe the TvZ match-up is perfectly fine when the Z has all the cards in his hands.
To even fathomable get Ghosts, you had to SURVIVE and secure your 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th base. You had to have PFs/Tanks to cut off attack routes, and you needed a very SPECIFIC map that made it easy to split the map so you could actually turtle to get Ghosts out. If you managed to survive until that point, while also getting all the proper upgrades and infrastructure to support your ghosts, while also properly controlling them (yes, they aren't fucking easy to use contrary to popular opinion, unlike Infestors who just move and click three times at most), you deserved to fucking win. Want to know why? Because a Terran that is on the same number of bases as you, with full upgrades, with a defensive infrastructure to prevent you from attacking 100% deserves to beat you into the ground, because that's how it was in BW. If you ever let a Terran player get his entire turtle/mech infrastructure up, he'd stomp the living hell out of you. Ghosts in SC2 worked the same way; they were only good if you could support them. If you couldn't, they were complete garbage.
Not only that, the TLPD pretty much points out that both T and Z were both doing perfectly fine. Nobody was doing significantly better than the other, and Ghosts were JUST starting to show up into play. Rather than just allowing people to adapt to them, Blizzard simply nerfs the shit out of them (ignoring the fact that the Infestor was causing massive problems for both Terran and Protoss because of their all around ability to pretty much do whatever the hell they wanted to) because a truckload of Z players started whining hard enough Blizzard actually listened.
That's not to say Z's are the only ones who whine to get an unjustified nerf or buff. Terran players have been quite guilty of it also. I already pointed out that Terran players quickly got the VR nerfed in Retail in another thread because Maka was a huge cry baby and directly went to DavidKim with ONE replay.
User was warned for this post
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On August 21 2012 17:07 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:56 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Oh, I see, a bunker and some marines is "very risky". I guess if you've convinced yourself of that, you can convince yourself of nearly anything. Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable. Called out? My favorite team is TSL, my icon is Zerg, it doesn't take a genius to figure out I play Zerg. However, Snipe was nerfed specifically for TvZ because it was imbalanced. Maybe you think it was all part of the conspiracy against Terran, though. What? A bunker, 6 helions, a scv, and a banshee + Marines is heavy investment, if you lose the Helions/Marines without forcing the Z to expend alot of larvae, you might as well just fucking quit the game. Snipe was nerfed because shitty Z players like you cried after Nestea lost a game to MVP. That was it. The amount of crying was simply unbelievable, even though objective people (*gasp* like Destiny) pointed out that Nestea had every opportunity to simply kill MVP before he established the infrastructure to get to Ghosts. Ghosts never were OP; period. Anyone that keeps saying that they are imbalanced are the same people who believe the TvZ match-up is perfectly fine when the Z has all the cards in his hands. To even fathomable get Ghosts, you had to SURVIVE and secure your 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th base. You had to have PFs/Tanks to cut off attack routes, and you needed a very SPECIFIC map that made it easy to split the map so you could actually turtle to get Ghosts out. If you managed to survive until that point, while also getting all the proper upgrades and infrastructure to support your ghosts, while also properly controlling them (yes, they aren't fucking easy to use contrary to popular opinion, unlike Infestors who just move and click three times at most), you deserved to fucking win. Want to know why? Because a Terran that is on the same number of bases as you, with full upgrades, with a defensive infrastructure to prevent you from attacking 100% deserves to beat you into the ground, because that's how it was in BW. If you ever let a Terran player get his entire turtle/mech infrastructure up, he'd stomp the living hell out of you. Ghosts in SC2 worked the same way; they were only good if you could support them. If you couldn't, they were complete garbage.
I dunno why you're arguing with me, I'm just going by what the patch notes and interviews say. As for the bunker thing, you must be talking about something completely different than what I've seen or you're just exaggerating what's needed to bunker an early 3rd.
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On August 21 2012 17:07 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:56 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Oh, I see, a bunker and some marines is "very risky". I guess if you've convinced yourself of that, you can convince yourself of nearly anything. Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable. Called out? My favorite team is TSL, my icon is Zerg, it doesn't take a genius to figure out I play Zerg. However, Snipe was nerfed specifically for TvZ because it was imbalanced. Maybe you think it was all part of the conspiracy against Terran, though. What? A bunker, 6 helions, a scv, and a banshee + Marines is heavy investment, if you lose the Helions/Marines without forcing the Z to expend alot of larvae, you might as well just fucking quit the game. Snipe was nerfed because shitty Z players like you cried after Nestea lost a game to MVP. That was it. The amount of crying was simply unbelievable, even though objective people (*gasp* like Destiny) pointed out that Nestea had every opportunity to simply kill MVP before he established the infrastructure to get to Ghosts. Ghosts never were OP; period. Anyone that keeps saying that they are imbalanced are the same people who believe the TvZ match-up is perfectly fine when the Z has all the cards in his hands. To even fathomable get Ghosts, you had to SURVIVE and secure your 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th base. You had to have PFs/Tanks to cut off attack routes, and you needed a very SPECIFIC map that made it easy to split the map so you could actually turtle to get Ghosts out. If you managed to survive until that point, while also getting all the proper upgrades and infrastructure to support your ghosts, while also properly controlling them (yes, they aren't fucking easy to use contrary to popular opinion, unlike Infestors who just move and click three times at most), you deserved to fucking win. Want to know why? Because a Terran that is on the same number of bases as you, with full upgrades, with a defensive infrastructure to prevent you from attacking 100% deserves to beat you into the ground, because that's how it was in BW. If you ever let a Terran player get his entire turtle/mech infrastructure up, he'd stomp the living hell out of you. Ghosts in SC2 worked the same way; they were only good if you could support them. If you couldn't, they were complete garbage. Not only that, the TLPD pretty much points out that both T and Z were both doing perfectly fine. Nobody was doing significantly better than the other, and Ghosts were JUST starting to show up into play. Rather than just allowing people to adapt to them, Blizzard simply nerfs the shit out of them (ignoring the fact that the Infestor was causing massive problems for both Terran and Protoss because of their all around ability to pretty much do whatever the hell they wanted to) because a truckload of Z players started whining hard enough Blizzard actually listened. That's not to say Z's are the only ones who whine to get an unjustified nerf or buff. Terran players have been quite guilty of it also. I already pointed out that Terran players quickly got the VR nerfed in Retail in another thread because Maka was a huge cry baby and directly went to DavidKim with ONE replay. I highly doubt patches would be made because of 1 replay.
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On August 21 2012 17:04 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Once Z players adapt to the newer gimmicky builds, they'll likely come out on top by a significant margin. On August 21 2012 16:49 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 16:34 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:
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DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing. If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger. Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced. Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War? Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup? How you seriously believe the match-up is balanced when Z has a virtual free third in the match-up while also having superior economic growth, better late game, and map control through creep and vision with watch tower control + OLs is beyond me. The combination of buffs, nerfs, and terrible maps (yes, they are TERRIBLE) results in what we see today. Now I know that you're really dumb. Ghosts were never overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. They were only useful in split map situations, on maps like Shakuras or Metro. They couldn't be used when behind at all, because they were so god awfully cost inefficient unless you killed like 30 Ultras or Blords. The statistics in TLPD support this statement to, which only demonstrates that not only are you hiding your biased, you're also real bad at hiding it. READ: THERE WAS NEVER A FUCKING ERA OF OP GHOSTS RAPING Z'S LEFT AND RIGHT; EVER. THE TLPD BACKS THIS STATEMENT.
Really sick of dumb people who are ignorant or just straight up lying. Terran doesn't do many gimmicky builds in BW unless you're talking about early 2000 era when the entire TvZ match-up was based on 5/6 rax Sunken busting a Z off 1 base. Let me ask you a question; why did Blizzard decide to completely fuck the entire match-up for no reason when across the entire board among international players and korean players, TvZ was deadlocked at 50/50? Who needs rational discussion when you can cap and bold, I guess. To answer your question, I assume the only possible reason for every Terran nerf and Zerg buff is a personal vendetta that David Kim and Dustin Browder have against you and/or all Terran players? Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable. I don't even get why you're continuing to argue this point. Most posters have been reasonable as they explain their issues with the patch and most of the Zergs either ignore that the patch has ruined a good matchup. If the game was statistically pretty damn close to balanced in Korea why did Zerg get the Queen buff in the first place? It's bizarre, Terran got their ghost-based army that can deal with BL/Infestor nerfed, then shortly after that Zerg got the tools in which they can get to their lategame more stably. TvZ is starting to look more and more like PvZ, which is irritating. Blizzard should be trying to make more of the matchups resemble TvT/old TvZ. Regardless of balance or not, the direction the game is going is just bad. There's barely any midgame anymore in half the matches I see, it's a turtle up and go straight to hivetech or whatever your race's equivalent is.
And why is that? Because Zerg and Protoss T1-T2 suck at putting on aggression without forming a huge deathball. PreQueen TvZ was no different at all from the zerg side of things (gameplanwise). Max out on Hive or die trying, else MMT is going to roll you at some point.
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On August 21 2012 17:22 Big J wrote:
And why is that? Because Zerg and Protoss T1-T2 suck at putting on aggression without forming a huge deathball. PreQueen TvZ was no different at all from the zerg side of things (gameplanwise). Max out on Hive or die trying, else MMT is going to roll you at some point.
Just stop right there and go watch some replays from a couple months ago. The patch made all the difference in the world, making the entire TvZ midgame next to extinct.
Back then in every game there where a couple of minutes that revolved around controlling the T army with ling/bling/muta/roach, slowly adding infestors and transitioning into hive FTW.
Now it's "the standard 12-13 minute hive timing" and that's just disappointing. Yeah, the MU is still good to watch, but it is nowhere near as good as it was before the queen buff and before the ghost nerf.
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On August 21 2012 17:44 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 17:22 Big J wrote:
And why is that? Because Zerg and Protoss T1-T2 suck at putting on aggression without forming a huge deathball. PreQueen TvZ was no different at all from the zerg side of things (gameplanwise). Max out on Hive or die trying, else MMT is going to roll you at some point. Just stop right there and go watch some replays from a couple months ago. The patch made all the difference in the world, making the entire TvZ midgame next to extinct. Back then in every game there where a couple of minutes that revolved around controlling the T army with ling/bling/muta/roach, slowly adding infestors and transitioning into hive FTW. Now it's "the standard 12-13 minute hive timing" and that's just disappointing. Yeah, the MU is still good to watch, but it is nowhere near as good as it was before the queen buff and before the ghost nerf.
Wtf, Mutalisks have been out of the matchup for way longer. Very few players like NesTea and Leenock who were really famous for mutalisk play did play them occasionally, everyone else led by DRG and Stephano played Infestor builds, either with double upgrade 12-13min Ultralisk rushes or 15-16min Broodlords.
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On August 21 2012 17:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 17:44 scypio wrote:On August 21 2012 17:22 Big J wrote:
And why is that? Because Zerg and Protoss T1-T2 suck at putting on aggression without forming a huge deathball. PreQueen TvZ was no different at all from the zerg side of things (gameplanwise). Max out on Hive or die trying, else MMT is going to roll you at some point. Just stop right there and go watch some replays from a couple months ago. The patch made all the difference in the world, making the entire TvZ midgame next to extinct. Back then in every game there where a couple of minutes that revolved around controlling the T army with ling/bling/muta/roach, slowly adding infestors and transitioning into hive FTW. Now it's "the standard 12-13 minute hive timing" and that's just disappointing. Yeah, the MU is still good to watch, but it is nowhere near as good as it was before the queen buff and before the ghost nerf. Wtf, Mutalisks have been out of the matchup for way longer. Very few players like NesTea and Leenock who were really famous for mutalisk play did play them occasionally, everyone else led by DRG and Stephano played Infestor builds, either with double upgrade 12-13min Ultralisk rushes or 15-16min Broodlords.
?
You do know that DRG was known for his incredible mutalisk control right? His playstyle is the very opposite of infestor turtling
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On August 21 2012 07:41 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:18 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 06:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later. Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month... Uh, you'll see ravens in almost any Korean TvZ late game these days. You won't see them on maps like Antiga/Entombed/Ohana/etc. because the games don't actually last that long thanks to map design. You'll see them on maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis because of the split map situations that arise once you hit the 15 minute mark. Who woulda thunk maps determine strategy and that you don't just do the same thing every game? Wait..maps determine strategy? So when did Zergs stop using Hive-Tech + Infestors cause the maps were "bad" for it? Or does it just work on just about every map.
I can do that to. Terrans make barracks and factories every game, no strategy required!
On August 21 2012 18:09 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 17:02 maartendq wrote:On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Why bother playing if the game isn't fun? It's still a piece of entertainment, not a full time job. If it's no longer fun, people will stop playing. TvZ is absolutely ridiculous at the moment. For some reason, zergs find it absolutely balanced that they can take three bases and map vision completely uncontested. I don't play SC2 anymore, but as a spectator, any matchup that has "zerg" in it has become very, very boring. T hey're doing the same stuff over and over again, regardless which race they play against (hold off early aggression --> drone up like mad --> get broods and infestors). Hey, that's uncalled for, there's always the big decision "do I go for broodlords or ultras at 12 minutes". Oh, the excitement! I find it hilarious that blizzard decided to nerf ghost snipe after probably seeing Nestea suicide broodlords alone into mvp's army. Had it been vikings instead of ghosts taking broodlords out, they'd probably nerf vikings. Make them 0 base armor or something. Oh wait.
Blame Mvp. He showed that ghosts hard-countered: mutas, infestors, ultralisks, brood lords, and corruptors. He would just never leave his defense and force the Zerg to attack into him. Anything anyone threw at him was solved with snipe...and then the other Koreans caught on and Blizzard nerfed it before Zerg wins rates dropped to zero.
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Northern Ireland23674 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:22 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:41 Eps wrote:On August 21 2012 07:18 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 06:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later. Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month... Uh, you'll see ravens in almost any Korean TvZ late game these days. You won't see them on maps like Antiga/Entombed/Ohana/etc. because the games don't actually last that long thanks to map design. You'll see them on maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis because of the split map situations that arise once you hit the 15 minute mark. Who woulda thunk maps determine strategy and that you don't just do the same thing every game? Wait..maps determine strategy? So when did Zergs stop using Hive-Tech + Infestors cause the maps were "bad" for it? Or does it just work on just about every map. I can do that to. Terrans make barracks and factories every game, no strategy required! Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 18:09 Scrubwave wrote:On August 21 2012 17:02 maartendq wrote:On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Why bother playing if the game isn't fun? It's still a piece of entertainment, not a full time job. If it's no longer fun, people will stop playing. TvZ is absolutely ridiculous at the moment. For some reason, zergs find it absolutely balanced that they can take three bases and map vision completely uncontested. I don't play SC2 anymore, but as a spectator, any matchup that has "zerg" in it has become very, very boring. T hey're doing the same stuff over and over again, regardless which race they play against (hold off early aggression --> drone up like mad --> get broods and infestors). Hey, that's uncalled for, there's always the big decision "do I go for broodlords or ultras at 12 minutes". Oh, the excitement! I find it hilarious that blizzard decided to nerf ghost snipe after probably seeing Nestea suicide broodlords alone into mvp's army. Had it been vikings instead of ghosts taking broodlords out, they'd probably nerf vikings. Make them 0 base armor or something. Oh wait. Blame Mvp. He showed that ghosts hard-countered: mutas, infestors, ultralisks, brood lords, and corruptors. He would just never leave his defense and force the Zerg to attack into him. Anything anyone threw at him was solved with snipe...and then the other Koreans caught on and Blizzard nerfed it before Zerg wins rates dropped to zero.
As opposed to infestors which pretty much hard or soft counter close to every unit in the game?
I don't buy that Blizzard nerfed Ghost snipe based on the Blizzcon games, might have been a factor in showcasing that the ghost was being used in a non-intended fashion but it would be far too knee-jerk for Blizzard. Plus that kind of style was very much more prevalent on split maps, kind of like how Raven-based lategames are now. It's not as if Terrans were getting to the stage they could transition to ghost play every game
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Ghost nerf and queen buffs were both good idea but people have reason to argue about Blizzard going too far in either case (such as saying 30+20 v psionic for snipe would have been more appropriate).
People shouldn't be complaining about this patch not going through, especially if they, in all nuttiness, believe that the ghost nerf and queen buff were both really bad, because Blizzard want to make sure they make the RIGHT change, one that actually addresses the biggest issues in TvZ.
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On August 21 2012 17:58 medicflare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 17:50 Big J wrote:On August 21 2012 17:44 scypio wrote:On August 21 2012 17:22 Big J wrote:
And why is that? Because Zerg and Protoss T1-T2 suck at putting on aggression without forming a huge deathball. PreQueen TvZ was no different at all from the zerg side of things (gameplanwise). Max out on Hive or die trying, else MMT is going to roll you at some point. Just stop right there and go watch some replays from a couple months ago. The patch made all the difference in the world, making the entire TvZ midgame next to extinct. Back then in every game there where a couple of minutes that revolved around controlling the T army with ling/bling/muta/roach, slowly adding infestors and transitioning into hive FTW. Now it's "the standard 12-13 minute hive timing" and that's just disappointing. Yeah, the MU is still good to watch, but it is nowhere near as good as it was before the queen buff and before the ghost nerf. Wtf, Mutalisks have been out of the matchup for way longer. Very few players like NesTea and Leenock who were really famous for mutalisk play did play them occasionally, everyone else led by DRG and Stephano played Infestor builds, either with double upgrade 12-13min Ultralisk rushes or 15-16min Broodlords. ? You do know that DRG was known for his incredible mutalisk control right? His playstyle is the very opposite of infestor turtling
That was a year ago, he had changed his style quite a while ago. Limited Mutalisk play only recently became somewhat common again.
The standard early this year absolutely was double evo into infestor into quick hive and +3 ultra timing or later broodlords depending on map/tank count.
The heavy mutalisk play didn't work too well vs the hellion contain into triple OC and double ebay anymore. Mutalisks were much more prevalent when Terrans used to open one ebay and later add a second one.
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On August 21 2012 19:54 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 18:53 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Ghost nerf and queen buffs were both good idea but people have reason to argue about Blizzard going too far in either case (such as saying 30+20 v psionic for snipe would have been more appropriate).
People shouldn't be complaining about this patch not going through, especially if they, in all nuttiness, believe that the ghost nerf and queen buff were both really bad, because Blizzard want to make sure they make the RIGHT change, one that actually addresses the biggest issues in TvZ. Why were they good ideas if the matchup was the most balanced so far before them?
Proof for this?
I could agree for the queen buff, but before the Ghost nerf... just no, TvP was way closer.
Edit: or at least evenly "imba"; I think there were some really bad months for Protoss too.
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On August 21 2012 18:09 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 17:02 maartendq wrote:On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Why bother playing if the game isn't fun? It's still a piece of entertainment, not a full time job. If it's no longer fun, people will stop playing. TvZ is absolutely ridiculous at the moment. For some reason, zergs find it absolutely balanced that they can take three bases and map vision completely uncontested. I don't play SC2 anymore, but as a spectator, any matchup that has "zerg" in it has become very, very boring. T hey're doing the same stuff over and over again, regardless which race they play against (hold off early aggression --> drone up like mad --> get broods and infestors). Hey, that's uncalled for, there's always the big decision "do I go for broodlords or ultras at 12 minutes". Oh, the excitement! I find it hilarious that blizzard decided to nerf ghost snipe after probably seeing Nestea suicide broodlords alone into mvp's army. Had it been vikings instead of ghosts taking broodlords out, they'd probably nerf vikings. Make them 0 base armor or something. Oh wait.
I just wish TvZ could go back to how it was, when it was exciting and it boasted 50% win rates for every month.
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So what's up ? Blizz, what're you doing ?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On August 25 2012 05:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
So what's up ? Blizz, what're you doing ?
David Kim said that they're paused that patch because last time zergs started to lose in Korea vs ravens and other terrans, so they prefer to wait
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On August 25 2012 05:24 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 05:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
So what's up ? Blizz, what're you doing ? David Kim said that they're paused that patch because last time zergs started to lose in Korea vs ravens and other terrans, so they prefer to wait
Which is only because there Zergs are just starting to experience having Ravens against their army composition. If zergs started to lose because of Raven it is probably because they just don't micro their army against them since they aren't used to it. Once they start to do it Raven will be low tier unit again.
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EPT
