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Why do they decide to hold off this change cause of 1 tournament while Terrans for months aren't showing good results and Blizzard stays quiet
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very upsetting to hear. I miss playing sc2, but I can't enjoy it when i try to play anymore. Hard work doesn't pay off anymore as terran, the expectations to beat opponents is too much, and I just end up getting mad. Still enjoy watching it, but blizzard alienating their playerbase is not a great idea considering Sc2 is already declining substantially in comparison to other esport titles 
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On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading").
Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2.
Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff.
After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing.
The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing.
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How about a change to the corrupter.
Instead of 2 armor it goes to 1 armor.
Corrupters are too good at tanking damage vs vikings without raven support and too good at dealing with BC/Carrier.
With fungal growth + the bonus damage to massive and the corruption ability Corruptors don't need to start with 2 armor.
BCs and Carriers become way better because they do low damage with lots of speed and corruptors are their biggest obstacle.
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On August 21 2012 12:41 Chaggi wrote:
Why do they decide to hold off this change cause of 1 tournament while Terrans for months aren't showing good results and Blizzard stays quiet
Apparenly MVP executing a severe beatdown on self-addmitted inferior players is cause for hesitation. It always seems this way. MVP showcases ghosts in lategame TvZ in one series and nerfs are already rolling out. MVP showcases Ravens in lategame TvZ in one series and they are already set to take back any Terran buff. I guess they really do regard MVP as the ultimate bar test of Terran's potential. I wonder if there is any direct contact between MVP and Blizzard's balance team? Prolly not though
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On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing.
If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger.
Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced.
Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War?
Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup?
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The infestor:
1) cheaper,
2) builds faster,
3) needs only 75 energy for fungal (hsm is 125),
4) +25 energy upgrade takes 30 seconds less then ravens
5) fungal doesn't need an upgrade (hsm needs to be upgraded)
Infestor:
- 100/150
- buildtime: 50
- fungal: 75 energy
- Pathogen Glands: 150/150, 80 buildtime
Raven:
- 100/200
- buildtime: 60
- hsm: 125 energy
- HSM upgrade: 150/150, 110 buildtime
- Corvid Reactor: 150/150, 110 buildtime
Can someone please tell me why the raven can't get a sick buff, while meanwhile the infestor can be the most awesome unit in the sc2 universe? Why not bring the raven on the level of the infestor? I know this wasn't possible because terran was too strong in the past. Today the terran race isn't so strong anymore, so isn't it time for this kind of HUGE buff?
I am not asking for a speed buff. I am asking for 1) making hsm 75 energy and 2) lower the buildtime of the upgrades like hsm and corvid reactor.
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On August 21 2012 16:19 Snowbear wrote:
The infestor:
1) cheaper,
2) builds faster,
3) needs only 75 energy for fungal (hsm is 125),
4) +25 energy upgrade takes 30 seconds less then ravens
5) fungal doesn't need an upgrade (hsm needs to be upgraded)
Infestor:
- 100/150
- buildtime: 50
- fungal: 75 energy
- Pathogen Glands: 150/150, 80 buildtime
Raven:
- 100/200
- buildtime: 60
- hsm: 125 energy
- HSM upgrade: 150/150, 110 buildtime
- Corvid Reactor: 150/150, 110 buildtime
Can someone please tell me why the raven can't get a sick buff, while meanwhile the infestor can be the most awesome unit in the sc2 universe? Why not bring the raven on the level of the infestor? I know this wasn't possible because terran was too strong in the past. Today the terran race isn't so strong anymore, so isn't it time for this kind of HUGE buff?
I am not asking for a speed buff. I am asking for 1) making hsm 75 energy and 2) lower the buildtime of the upgrades like hsm and corvid reactor.
1v1 unit compares are awesome! after those buffs let make infestors fly, get PDD instead of useless neural and make it a detector. and then lets make all other units in all races the same! go for it blizzard!
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On August 21 2012 16:27 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:19 Snowbear wrote:
The infestor:
1) cheaper,
2) builds faster,
3) needs only 75 energy for fungal (hsm is 125),
4) +25 energy upgrade takes 30 seconds less then ravens
5) fungal doesn't need an upgrade (hsm needs to be upgraded)
Infestor:
- 100/150
- buildtime: 50
- fungal: 75 energy
- Pathogen Glands: 150/150, 80 buildtime
Raven:
- 100/200
- buildtime: 60
- hsm: 125 energy
- HSM upgrade: 150/150, 110 buildtime
- Corvid Reactor: 150/150, 110 buildtime
Can someone please tell me why the raven can't get a sick buff, while meanwhile the infestor can be the most awesome unit in the sc2 universe? Why not bring the raven on the level of the infestor? I know this wasn't possible because terran was too strong in the past. Today the terran race isn't so strong anymore, so isn't it time for this kind of HUGE buff?
I am not asking for a speed buff. I am asking for 1) making hsm 75 energy and 2) lower the buildtime of the upgrades like hsm and corvid reactor. 1v1 unit compares are awesome! after those buffs let make infestors fly, get PDD instead of useless neural and make it a detector. and then lets make all other units in all races the same! go for it blizzard!
It's not just a comparing, it's about the fact that the raven is a SHIT unit, and when blizzard plans a buff, most zergs are "oh nooooooo, this is not fair!!". I would trade PDD for infested terrans, any day. I would also trade fly for burrow. Stop comparing these unimportant things. It's about the infestor being a sick good unit, and meanwhile the raven being one of the most shit units in the sc2 universe.
Other spellcasters are so good, why can't the raven be a top spelcaster???
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On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:
While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup?
Possible scenario is that one group of players is better than other group.
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On August 21 2012 16:29 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:27 Decendos wrote:On August 21 2012 16:19 Snowbear wrote:
The infestor:
1) cheaper,
2) builds faster,
3) needs only 75 energy for fungal (hsm is 125),
4) +25 energy upgrade takes 30 seconds less then ravens
5) fungal doesn't need an upgrade (hsm needs to be upgraded)
Infestor:
- 100/150
- buildtime: 50
- fungal: 75 energy
- Pathogen Glands: 150/150, 80 buildtime
Raven:
- 100/200
- buildtime: 60
- hsm: 125 energy
- HSM upgrade: 150/150, 110 buildtime
- Corvid Reactor: 150/150, 110 buildtime
Can someone please tell me why the raven can't get a sick buff, while meanwhile the infestor can be the most awesome unit in the sc2 universe? Why not bring the raven on the level of the infestor? I know this wasn't possible because terran was too strong in the past. Today the terran race isn't so strong anymore, so isn't it time for this kind of HUGE buff?
I am not asking for a speed buff. I am asking for 1) making hsm 75 energy and 2) lower the buildtime of the upgrades like hsm and corvid reactor. 1v1 unit compares are awesome! after those buffs let make infestors fly, get PDD instead of useless neural and make it a detector. and then lets make all other units in all races the same! go for it blizzard! It's not just a comparing, it's about the fact that the raven is a SHIT unit, and when blizzard plans a buff, most zergs are "oh nooooooo, this is not fair!!". I would trade PDD for infested terrans, any day. I would also trade fly for burrow. Stop comparing these unimportant things. It's about the infestor being a sick good unit, and meanwhile the raven being one of the most shit units in the sc2 universe. Other spellcasters are so good, why can't the raven be a top spelcaster???
i am a zerg and i found the changes of creep and raven really good and lots of zergs on TL thought its a good change. blizzard wants to wait if they need to patch those things or not after seeing lategame terrans rape BL infestor armies lately with PDD + HSM. they never said those buffs/nerfs wouldnt be implemented, they just said they want to wait a bit longer since metagame starts to shift.
and you cant compare just spellcasters because IF you would nerf infestor you would need huge buffs to other zerg units since the other units just more or less suck without infestor support while until lategame T is fine without the raven.
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On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing. If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger. Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced. Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War? Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup?
How you seriously believe the match-up is balanced when Z has a virtual free third in the match-up while also having superior economic growth, better late game, and map control through creep and vision with watch tower control + OLs is beyond me. The combination of buffs, nerfs, and terrible maps (yes, they are TERRIBLE) results in what we see today.
Now I know that you're really dumb. Ghosts were never overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. They were only useful in split map situations, on maps like Shakuras or Metro. They couldn't be used when behind at all, because they were so god awfully cost inefficient unless you killed like 30 Ultras or Blords. The statistics in TLPD support this statement to, which only demonstrates that not only are you hiding your biased, you're also real bad at hiding it.
READ: THERE WAS NEVER A FUCKING ERA OF OP GHOSTS RAPING Z'S LEFT AND RIGHT; EVER. THE TLPD BACKS THIS STATEMENT.
Really sick of dumb people who are ignorant or just straight up lying.
Terran doesn't do many gimmicky builds in BW unless you're talking about early 2000 era when the entire TvZ match-up was based on 5/6 rax Sunken busting a Z off 1 base.
Let me ask you a question; why did Blizzard decide to completely fuck the entire match-up for no reason when across the entire board among international players and korean players, TvZ was deadlocked at 50/50?
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in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through
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On August 21 2012 16:34 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing. If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger. Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced. Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War? Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup? How you seriously believe the match-up is balanced when Z has a virtual free third in the match-up while also having superior economic growth, better late game, and map control through creep and vision with watch tower control + OLs is beyond me. The combination of buffs, nerfs, and terrible maps (yes, they are TERRIBLE) results in what we see today. Now I know that you're really dumb. Ghosts were never overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. They were only useful in split map situations, on maps like Shakuras or Metro. They couldn't be used when behind at all, because they were so god awfully cost inefficient unless you killed like 30 Ultras or Blords. The statistics in TLPD support this statement to, which only demonstrates that not only are you hiding your biased, you're also real bad at hiding it. READ: THERE WAS NEVER A FUCKING ERA OF OP GHOSTS RAPING Z'S LEFT AND RIGHT; EVER. THE TLPD BACKS THIS STATEMENT.
Really sick of dumb people who are ignorant or just straight up lying. Terran doesn't do many gimmicky builds in BW unless you're talking about early 2000 era when the entire TvZ match-up was based on 5/6 rax Sunken busting a Z off 1 base. Let me ask you a question; why did Blizzard decide to completely fuck the entire match-up for no reason when across the entire board among international players and korean players, TvZ was deadlocked at 50/50?
Why try and answer the points I make when you can just use caps and bold, well played.
To answer your question, I assume the only possible reason for every Terran nerf and Zerg buff is a personal vendetta that David Kim and Dustin Browder have against you and/or all Terran players?
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On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through
Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode. Once Z players adapt to the newer gimmicky builds, they'll likely come out on top by a significant margin.
On August 21 2012 16:49 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:34 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 14:44 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:58 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 12:07 superstartran wrote:On August 21 2012 10:19 densha wrote:On August 21 2012 10:04 vthree wrote:On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance. DRG won the GSL and was considered the best player in the world pre patch but the queen got buffed anyways. Shouldn't zergs just have played like DRG? You cannot just base things based on a handful of players. I'm not arguing whether or not Zerg needed the Queen buff, a case can be made that it was unnecessary of course. I'm saying the balance whining in this thread is full of emotional backlashing and clear exaggeration in hopes of making the problem seem worse than it is with the goal of getting Blizz to make more changes. In essence, whether the buff was necessary or not, the game as it stands now is still evolving and Terrans just don't look as helpless as they did maybe one or two months ago. Or maybe the Terran players are just all-inning half the time rather than actually playing a normal macro game, while the Z players are just plain out bad (see Symbol vs Reality for a perfect example of this) and just can't respond to it half the time? Don't talk about Taeja or MVP, because they are clearly levels ahead of the Z competition they faced, and when they do face a quality Z opponent on their level like DRG more often than not they are in big trouble. "Maybe"? "Just plain out bad"? This is your evidence for imbalance? Without game length details and a lot of other stats, neither one of us can judge what you're saying fairly. Do you really think T are all-inning more? Man, T were all-inning like it was the end of the world before they ever had a nerf or Z ever had a buff! That's one thing that T just does and I gauge that they're doing it far less, considering how often they used to pull SCVs, five rax reaper, marauder/hellion, and do any number of stim-centered all-ins. But you're doing exactly what one of my earlier posts predicted - simply making excuses for cases in which your pet bias is contradicted without provided evidence to support your excuses ("Special Pleading"). Remember guys, when you're losing the argument, just turn it around and just accuse the poster of random errors in logic. Because we simply can't talk about SC2. Here's a fact for you. After the Ghost nerf and before the Queen nerf, TvZ was at an all-time balanced win percentage across the board, and various high level pros looked to it as to how SC2 should look (PvZ at the time was pseudo balanced, but it was terrible to watch and still is, because the P simply just 2 bases the Z more often than not, especially in Korean play). Course Z players at the time didn't bitch about Helions at all, but suddenly said Helions contains were overpowered post Queen buff. After the Queen buff Terrans are all-inning at an all time high in some form or fashion. They are either going an extremely greedy build that is easily countered by 2 base Baneling busts, or they are just straight up doing a gimmicky build that requires massive economic damage and the Z to react to the build badly. I haven't seen many Terran players just win straight up without doing something extremely gimmicky, which basically constitutes as a form of an all-in, since it is relying on the Z player just reacting badly. If the Z reacts properly, he wins. Easily. The very few times I've seen a Terran player just win straight up macro is usually because the Z plays the match god awful (Symbol v Reality, Kas vs Nestea, etc.) or because the Terran player is just legitimately 2 levels or more above the Z he's playing. The amount of risk a Terran player has to take to keep up with a Z is extremely stupid. And that's just to keep up. Not even to fucking get ahead. To get ahead, you have to pray that the Z is just below you in some form or fashion of skill, or has to react badly to what you are doing. If I was going to accuse you of "random" logical fallacies, I'd pick something more interesting than "special pleading". Ignoring the holes in your own logic won't make your argument stronger. Your explanation of TvZ is really just all conjecture. Every race does all-ins, it's a normal part of play. Every race takes economic risks, it's normal. How are you sifting through the "normal" all-ins, gimmicks, and risks from the ones that "prove" the imbalance? I guess there's no way to do that, actually, so EVERY all-in, gimmick, or risk becomes, in your mind, proof that Z is imbalanced. Think of it this way: Terrans have a LONG history of all-ins in TvZ. Two-rax, bunker pushes, five-rax reaper, marauder/hellion, various bio/stim timings, etc. These builds have been staples of TvZ since the beginning, when the consensus was that T was OP against Z. A long line of nerfs/buffs to bring the match-up into balance is enough evidence to show that imbalance existed. Now, when T was actually OP (including in late-game with Ghosts), why still the prevalence of all-ins and gimmicky builds? Do you personally believe that Z has always been OP? Do you see why pointing out all-ins and gimmicky builds for Terrans proves very little since they've been doing that since Brood War? Just face it - your complete bias in this discussion is making you see something that just isn't there. I'll give you that since the Queen patch, the TLPD win rate for foreign Terrans has gone way down. While in Korea, that first month of the buff (May) their win-rate dropped just as much, in June and July the Korean Terrans brought it back to 50/50. If true imbalance exists, how can any region be 50/50 in the matchup? How you seriously believe the match-up is balanced when Z has a virtual free third in the match-up while also having superior economic growth, better late game, and map control through creep and vision with watch tower control + OLs is beyond me. The combination of buffs, nerfs, and terrible maps (yes, they are TERRIBLE) results in what we see today. Now I know that you're really dumb. Ghosts were never overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. They were only useful in split map situations, on maps like Shakuras or Metro. They couldn't be used when behind at all, because they were so god awfully cost inefficient unless you killed like 30 Ultras or Blords. The statistics in TLPD support this statement to, which only demonstrates that not only are you hiding your biased, you're also real bad at hiding it. READ: THERE WAS NEVER A FUCKING ERA OF OP GHOSTS RAPING Z'S LEFT AND RIGHT; EVER. THE TLPD BACKS THIS STATEMENT.
Really sick of dumb people who are ignorant or just straight up lying. Terran doesn't do many gimmicky builds in BW unless you're talking about early 2000 era when the entire TvZ match-up was based on 5/6 rax Sunken busting a Z off 1 base. Let me ask you a question; why did Blizzard decide to completely fuck the entire match-up for no reason when across the entire board among international players and korean players, TvZ was deadlocked at 50/50? Who needs rational discussion when you can cap and bold, I guess. To answer your question, I assume the only possible reason for every Terran nerf and Zerg buff is a personal vendetta that David Kim and Dustin Browder have against you and/or all Terran players?
Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable.
To answer some of your points :
1) There are only a very few viable openings in TvZ right now, and most of them are either extremely greedy (3 OC/4OC openings) or they rely heavily on your opponent simply sucking a massive fat penis (Helion/Banshee) and not knowing how to deal with a pressure build that has been around since the dawn of time (aka late in the beta). So pretty much, you're pretty much relying on your opponent not reacting correctly to what you're doing, not solid play. When you look at the PvZ match-up, it comes down to who controls their units better in the early game; both players have multiple cards to play in the opening. Terran has literally 1 card; his card is basically do something really out of the ordinary and pray the Z just doesn't know how to react to it. The reason why many Terran players are opening so greedy now adays is because they are hoping the Z just doesn't know what to do and doesn't bling bust them, because if they did, they'd fucking die (see ForGG games for examples of a Z knowing what to do).
2) The reason why all-ins/timings existed back then were because the maps were incredibly fucking small. So no shit sherlock, yes, Terran, the early game race is of course going to all-in the living hell out of a race that has trouble defending against them on a smaller map. The reason why they do it now is completely different. It's because it is the ONLY choice. Trying to sit back and try and outgreed a decent Z player doesn't work. It just doesn't. You'll die, or he'll just outeco you badly regardless.
3) Nice job answering my question regarding why Blizzard fucked a match-up that was 50/50 across the board.
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On August 21 2012 16:29 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:27 Decendos wrote:On August 21 2012 16:19 Snowbear wrote:
The infestor:
1) cheaper,
2) builds faster,
3) needs only 75 energy for fungal (hsm is 125),
4) +25 energy upgrade takes 30 seconds less then ravens
5) fungal doesn't need an upgrade (hsm needs to be upgraded)
Infestor:
- 100/150
- buildtime: 50
- fungal: 75 energy
- Pathogen Glands: 150/150, 80 buildtime
Raven:
- 100/200
- buildtime: 60
- hsm: 125 energy
- HSM upgrade: 150/150, 110 buildtime
- Corvid Reactor: 150/150, 110 buildtime
Can someone please tell me why the raven can't get a sick buff, while meanwhile the infestor can be the most awesome unit in the sc2 universe? Why not bring the raven on the level of the infestor? I know this wasn't possible because terran was too strong in the past. Today the terran race isn't so strong anymore, so isn't it time for this kind of HUGE buff?
I am not asking for a speed buff. I am asking for 1) making hsm 75 energy and 2) lower the buildtime of the upgrades like hsm and corvid reactor. 1v1 unit compares are awesome! after those buffs let make infestors fly, get PDD instead of useless neural and make it a detector. and then lets make all other units in all races the same! go for it blizzard! It's not just a comparing, it's about the fact that the raven is a SHIT unit, and when blizzard plans a buff, most zergs are "oh nooooooo, this is not fair!!". I would trade PDD for infested terrans, any day. I would also trade fly for burrow. Stop comparing these unimportant things. It's about the infestor being a sick good unit, and meanwhile the raven being one of the most shit units in the sc2 universe.
Not only is the Raven pretty dismal in a direct comparison to the Infestor; but also when you look at the opportunities each unit opens up. Infestors allow zerg to safely reach hive tech and 3-4 base drone saturation along with double upgrades. Raven's pave the way for a lategame Sky Terran composition and possibly mech? I'll admit, the Raven is largely unexplored, but that doesn't mean there are any hidden merits in it It can add some much needed DPS to a lategame army but I believe as Zergs learn to cope with the HSM, it'll prove to be uneffective. Burrowed infestors outrun the HSM for crying out loud.
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On August 21 2012 16:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through Look deeper into those stats and you'll find that in two of those months Z's were raping the living snot out of Terran players in GSL, particularly in GSLTL. It is only recently that Terran players in Korea are doing better overall, and that mainly has to do with the fact that they are executing what are very risky or gimmicky builds such as Helion/Banshee bunkers at 3rds, or Triple/Quad CCs with no fast Siege mode.
Oh, I see, a bunker and some marines is "very risky". I guess if you've convinced yourself of that, you can convince yourself of nearly anything.
Who needs to have a rational and logical argument when you've been called out on your own hidden bias? Ghosts were never overpowered son, anyone who believes so was simply just another Z player who cried as hard as they could because they thought that Nestea deserved to beat MVP, even though Nestea made so many shitty mistakes it was unbelievable.
Called out? My favorite team is TSL, my icon is Zerg, it doesn't take a genius to figure out I play Zerg. However, Snipe was nerfed specifically for TvZ because it was imbalanced. Maybe you think it was all part of the conspiracy against Terran, though.
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On August 21 2012 16:49 densha wrote:
Why try and answer the points I make when you can just use caps and bold, well played.
To answer your question, I assume the only possible reason for every Terran nerf and Zerg buff is a personal vendetta that David Kim and Dustin Browder have against you and/or all Terran players?
Other posibility: they are not too good at their job.
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On August 21 2012 16:46 Tsubbi wrote:
in over 2 years only 1 single month (ONE) had a positive winrate for zerg in korea, that was right after the patch hit in may, june and july are already right back in terrans favor
some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ridiculous, i just wish some of you had experienced what the matchup felt like form the zerg perspective in certain periods since release, you would feel ashamed for what you are writing in here
right now the matchup is almost perfectly balanced in korea, there is absolutely no reason for the proposed changes to go through
I look at last 12 month graph and i see 4 months with + 50% ZvT
How can we look a the same things and see different results?
And then you say that post of others are ridicoulus.
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On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving....
Why bother playing if the game isn't fun? It's still a piece of entertainment, not a full time job. If it's no longer fun, people will stop playing.
TvZ is absolutely ridiculous at the moment. For some reason, zergs find it absolutely balanced that they can take three bases and map vision completely uncontested. I don't play SC2 anymore, but as a spectator, any matchup that has "zerg" in it has become very, very boring. They're doing the same stuff over and over again, regardless which race they play against (hold off early aggression --> drone up like mad --> get broods and infestors).
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EPT
