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On August 21 2012 05:17 Snowbear wrote:
Amazing, how the infestor can be a sick good unit, a counter to basicly everything terran has. Meanwhile there is the raven, a slow building unit that is only good when the opponent clumps up his broodlords. Oh, and you have to upgrade the spell. Imagine infestors need fungal upgrade, and fungal requires 125 energy...
Cmon, terrans have marines. They are good against anything! Anything! Imagine if terrans had ability like fungal, there would be only terrans winning!
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On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving....
Or maybe terrans should consider not buying HOTS and make this subject not so funny to Blizzard.
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On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed.
Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later.
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On August 21 2012 03:06 Teoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:40 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 19 2012 22:04 zmansman17 wrote:On August 19 2012 15:17 pyro19 wrote:On August 19 2012 14:42 Seam wrote:On August 19 2012 12:07 Danzo wrote:On August 19 2012 10:59 plogamer wrote:On August 19 2012 04:27 emc wrote:On August 19 2012 04:15 plogamer wrote:
Broodlings are too good against tanks. Watching Vortix vs Supernova and other Terrans, today, I saw a tech switch of broods cause tanks to friendlyfire their own units to death. This allowed him to turn the game around from some really big deficits.
It's not a new, unknown fact, but I think it goes unnoticed and underrated. If we could have tanks that didn't do splash damage (or maybe less of it), then broodlings would be less of a threat and infestors would be zoned out with targetfire, allowing vikings to push back broodlords. It would still require skill, ie, not a-move.
It would be a buff for mech in all matchups (which we sorely need)
and it would be a nerf to infestors in TvZ.
I wish Blizzard would try it out on their balance maps one day. Maybe as an upgrade?
you make me giggle Can your biased zerg brain even consider the possibility of not making broodlords an automatic mind-control on seige tanks? Wait Tanks that don't do splash or less splash? Then what's the point of having siege tank as a unit.... He wants no FRIENDLY splash. So, for example, Zerglings run into Marines, which usually works out fairly well because Tank Splash. But without the Marines taking damge from the splash. Also making any kind of drop on top of tanks worthless.(in ALL matchups.) It always eluded me why Tanks have such a huge Friendly Fire splash whereas the Collosus has none. Tanks should do less friendly splash because it makes free units like broodlings much stronger than they should be. It forces the un-seige, which grants a run in of lings and then it's game. This is so wrong. I would argue that colossus should do friendly splash; along with PFs and probably fungal. The only splash attack that shouldn't do friendly fire would be melee attacks (blings and ultras) because that would be functionally stupid. Colossus and PF splash makes me sad. It feels like they put the game on easymode with those two attacks, and they are both horrible for the game IMO. Well. While i am not very inclined to discuss balance for darker reasons... T he collosous non-friendly fire stuff is understandable because it would uselessify meele units for protoss. Because every zealot would be destroyed by the laser stuffs. Tanks are fine with friendly splash, because all terran units are ranged, and it forces you to make some tactical choices when faced with meele units. I think its a great thing to consider how other units will complement the splasher, and when one unit makes another one useless, it is really not that great for creating unit use diversity. And if planetarys had friendly splash, then running 2 lings into an scv line would destroy that line in two or three shots. could be discussed if this is bad or good.
So it's okay for tanks to obliterate their own army but not for Collos to do the same? Sounds like the standard blizzard logic to me
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It's hilarious how they just change the queen range on a whim but spend over 3 months pondering giving terran a very slight buff. They then cancel it as soon as they find out MVP is in fact capable of beating patchzergs.
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On August 19 2012 14:42 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:07 Danzo wrote:On August 19 2012 10:59 plogamer wrote:On August 19 2012 04:27 emc wrote:On August 19 2012 04:15 plogamer wrote:
Broodlings are too good against tanks. Watching Vortix vs Supernova and other Terrans, today, I saw a tech switch of broods cause tanks to friendlyfire their own units to death. This allowed him to turn the game around from some really big deficits.
It's not a new, unknown fact, but I think it goes unnoticed and underrated. If we could have tanks that didn't do splash damage (or maybe less of it), then broodlings would be less of a threat and infestors would be zoned out with targetfire, allowing vikings to push back broodlords. It would still require skill, ie, not a-move.
It would be a buff for mech in all matchups (which we sorely need)
and it would be a nerf to infestors in TvZ.
I wish Blizzard would try it out on their balance maps one day. Maybe as an upgrade?
you make me giggle Can your biased zerg brain even consider the possibility of not making broodlords an automatic mind-control on seige tanks? Wait Tanks that don't do splash or less splash? Then what's the point of having siege tank as a unit.... He wants no FRIENDLY splash. So, for example, Zerglings run into Marines, which usually works out fairly well because Tank Splash. But without the Marines taking damge from the splash. Also making any kind of drop on top of tanks worthless.(in ALL matchups.)
all aoes do damage to your own units... its only logical
storm hurts toss
emp also drains terrans energy
tanks have aoe damage
fungal does... oh... wait.... wait.........
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On August 21 2012 05:59 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Or maybe terrans should consider not buying HOTS and make this subject not so funny to Blizzard.
Oh mean, could all the terrans whining about balance not buy HotS? That would be the greatest thing that could happen. Must buy expasion at that point.
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On August 21 2012 06:29 furo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 14:42 Seam wrote:On August 19 2012 12:07 Danzo wrote:On August 19 2012 10:59 plogamer wrote:On August 19 2012 04:27 emc wrote:On August 19 2012 04:15 plogamer wrote:
Broodlings are too good against tanks. Watching Vortix vs Supernova and other Terrans, today, I saw a tech switch of broods cause tanks to friendlyfire their own units to death. This allowed him to turn the game around from some really big deficits.
It's not a new, unknown fact, but I think it goes unnoticed and underrated. If we could have tanks that didn't do splash damage (or maybe less of it), then broodlings would be less of a threat and infestors would be zoned out with targetfire, allowing vikings to push back broodlords. It would still require skill, ie, not a-move.
It would be a buff for mech in all matchups (which we sorely need)
and it would be a nerf to infestors in TvZ.
I wish Blizzard would try it out on their balance maps one day. Maybe as an upgrade?
you make me giggle Can your biased zerg brain even consider the possibility of not making broodlords an automatic mind-control on seige tanks? Wait Tanks that don't do splash or less splash? Then what's the point of having siege tank as a unit.... He wants no FRIENDLY splash. So, for example, Zerglings run into Marines, which usually works out fairly well because Tank Splash. But without the Marines taking damge from the splash. Also making any kind of drop on top of tanks worthless.(in ALL matchups.) all aoes do damage to your own units... its only logical storm hurts toss emp also drains terrans energy tanks have aoe damage fungal does... oh... wait.... wait.........
Archons, Colossus, Banelings, Ultralisks, Infestors (fungal), Thors (vs air), Hellions, and Planetary Fortresses do not do friendly fire AoE. It's not exactly exclusive to fungal growth.
Units that deal friendly fire AoE: Ghost (nuke, emp), Siege Tank, Raven (hsm) High Templar (storm).
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On August 21 2012 05:59 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Or maybe terrans should consider not buying HOTS and make this subject not so funny to Blizzard.
Wouldn't be surprised to actually see this happen. Not in a concerted effort or anything, but Terran population has already diminished quite a bit on ladder.
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On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later.
Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month...
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The first change blizzard suggested before the range 5 buff was giving queens a starting energy of 50 to allow them to plant an early tumor. I still prefer that change as it allows for early aggression and gives Zerg a bit of a bump for defense (creep and easier to get energy for transfuse)
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On August 21 2012 06:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:59 utrabo wrote:On August 19 2012 21:16 malaan wrote:
Unless you are tip top grandmaster at the very least you should not be complaining about balance this much. If folks in here spending hours play-testing balance maps and whinging in forums that Blizzard probably laugh about instead of actually playing the game / improving.... Or maybe terrans should consider not buying HOTS and make this subject not so funny to Blizzard. Wouldn't be surprised to actually see this happen. Not in a concerted effort or anything, but Terran population has already diminished quite a bit on ladder.
But a concerted effort would be pretty cool.
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I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the Koreans, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance.
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On August 21 2012 07:08 densha wrote:
I'm afraid us Zergs and Protoss set a dangerous precedent early on in SC2. The "exaggerated balance whine = Blizzard listens" assumption is in full force here. You would think Terran never win a game vs. Z when in fact the match-up has stabilized wonderfully since the queen buff.
The only possible issue is that non-Korean Terrans are less successful than the foreigners, but that only reflects on their skill, outdated builds, different metagame, etc. Remember when GSL was basically 60% Terran players? Internet forum Terrans would always say "it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that the best players play T because of Boxer!". Well, maybe it's that legacy that continues in MVP and Taeja... just because foreigners have a hard time emulating that speaks nothing of balance.
Proof? For the most part, the only "evidence" of stabilization is a tournament where Taeja played 2 Zergs on his way to win a championship and MVP beating up on foreign Zergs.
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On August 21 2012 06:41 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later. Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month...
Uh, you'll see ravens in almost any Korean TvZ late game these days. You won't see them on maps like Antiga/Entombed/Ohana/etc. because the games don't actually last that long thanks to map design. You'll see them on maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis because of the split map situations that arise once you hit the 15 minute mark. Who woulda thunk maps determine strategy and that you don't just do the same thing every game?
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On August 21 2012 07:18 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later. Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month... Uh, you'll see ravens in almost any Korean TvZ late game these days. You won't see them on maps like Antiga/Entombed/Ohana/etc. because the games don't actually last that long thanks to map design. You'll see them on maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis because of the split map situations that arise once you hit the 15 minute mark. Who woulda thunk maps determine strategy and that you don't just do the same thing every game?
Where do you people keep getting this nonsense? Links to replays or VODs of similarly skilled Korean TvZ, please.
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i cant believe they delayed the creep spread change, its not our fault zergs cant deal with hellion run bys and banshees, hell ill send them my replay pack and i'm a rank 80 GM terran with 2 accounts.. you'll see games ranging from destiny,sheth,slush.catz all not scouting and wondering why they are losing so much to hellion run bys. Its because they don't fucking know that nitro pack ovies can scout and surprise surprise, just making 5 queens isn't going to defend vs "everything"
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On August 21 2012 07:18 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 21 2012 06:07 mrjpark wrote:On August 21 2012 03:47 SolidMoose wrote:On August 21 2012 03:41 zeross wrote:On August 21 2012 02:54 ChristianS wrote:By the way, guys, this balance patch was put on hold. Blizzard feels like just as they announced it Zergs started struggling. Source: http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890(Stuff about the patch comes about 2:00 in the video) wth O_o so they take those kind of decision based on the result of those few tournies from patch announce up to now ? this argument feel a bit weird for me considering their 'we collect a tons of data to make our decisions' stance before. It's the same old thing as always. Thorzain makes a Thor build and it gets nerfed instantly. Zergs don't win every tournament and suddenly a nerf is reverted. There's no point in ever trusting their data when they buffed zerg when the matchup was 50.1 - 49.9. Even if they don't nerf creep it would be ridiculous not to buff the raven speed. Or rather, Terrans are going back to winning against Zerg, just with a much more balanced win rate, and are utilizing ravens very well in the late game. So the need for both potential buffs have gone away and Blizzard would rather not overbuff a unit if it has already completed its role just to nerf it later. Must have missed all those Raven wielding Terrans tearing up the scene in the past month... Uh, you'll see ravens in almost any Korean TvZ late game these days. You won't see them on maps like Antiga/Entombed/Ohana/etc. because the games don't actually last that long thanks to map design. You'll see them on maps like Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis because of the split map situations that arise once you hit the 15 minute mark. Who woulda thunk maps determine strategy and that you don't just do the same thing every game?
Wait..maps determine strategy? So when did Zergs stop using Hive-Tech + Infestors cause the maps were "bad" for it?
Or does it just work on just about every map.
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On August 21 2012 07:41 VPCursed wrote:
i cant believe they delayed the creep spread change, its not our fault zergs cant deal with hellion run bys and banshees, hell ill send them my replay pack and i'm a rank 80 GM terran with 2 accounts.. you'll see games ranging from destiny,sheth,slush.catz all not scouting and wondering why they are losing so much to hellion run bys. Its because they don't fucking know that nitro pack ovies can scout and surprise surprise, just making 5 queens isn't going to defend vs "everything"
Using your logic it's not our fault you guys can't stop creep you guys are just so lazy and don't like to move out enough to deny creep.
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On August 21 2012 07:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:41 VPCursed wrote:
i cant believe they delayed the creep spread change, its not our fault zergs cant deal with hellion run bys and banshees, hell ill send them my replay pack and i'm a rank 80 GM terran with 2 accounts.. you'll see games ranging from destiny,sheth,slush.catz all not scouting and wondering why they are losing so much to hellion run bys. Its because they don't fucking know that nitro pack ovies can scout and surprise surprise, just making 5 queens isn't going to defend vs "everything" Using your logic it's not our fault you guys can't stop creep you guys are just so lazy and don't like to move out enough to deny creep.
trust me, we try. it's not as easy as you think.
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EPT
