• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:08
CEST 23:08
KST 06:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack1Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced25BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19
StarCraft 2
General
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 729 users

Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 56

Forum Index > SC2 General
1619 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 54 55 56 57 58 81 Next
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
August 12 2012 14:12 GMT
#1101
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.
21 is half the truth
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
August 12 2012 14:21 GMT
#1102
The thing people need to realise is this situation is exactly the same as the Fruitdealer situation.

Fruitdealer at a point was the only zerg to be able to do anything as (at the time) he was playing Zerg the best way anyone could. He made use of things others didn't and won the first GSL. The same thing is happening with Taeja in the fact he's playing perfectly, but he shouldn't be used as the majority as no-one is anywhere near as good as him. Look at his TvP's yesterday. His Micro is something that many people will never be able to pull off and he was winning engagements he probably shouldn't have.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 14:36:29
August 12 2012 14:22 GMT
#1103
On August 12 2012 23:12 submarine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 submarine wrote:
On August 12 2012 21:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 19:49 Bagi wrote:
On August 12 2012 17:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I still think Teaja's OC-heavy style is key. You don't go 22-3 just by being a superior player. Teaja outmacros with OC's + mules, so he can fight zerg late game with a macro advantage. Mules are insane, as you do not have oversaturation. You can mine 4000 minerals from one base if you have enough OC's, so you have to cover only few bases and don't lose supply to scv's.

The problem is reaching this point safely on a map that isn't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship.

Most zergs will push the advantage when they get to hive tech. If all other things are equal but you've invested thousands of minerals into extra CC's, there's no way to hold the typical BL push for example.

It really was the failed early aggression that won Taeja those games, along with the maps that make greedy play so much easier to pull off.


Well, ofc this is not easy, you have to do this reactively (scouting required ) same as a droning zerg. When the Zerg drones hard, you can build OC's, else better build army.


You have to understand that an orbital takes far longer to pay for itself compared to a round of drones. Terran is not designed to play reactive on that level. Terran can't build an army in 2 production cycles like zerg does. To have a certain army at a certain time you have to build the necessary infrastructure far ahead in time. If zerg builds a fast 3rd he can choose to use it to produce an army with it. An OC does not offer that kind of flexibility.


I understand that, however OC's a re still good . The time for ROI (return on investment) of drones is about 1,5 to 2 minutes (build time 17s + walk to minerals line [depends] + 75 seconds of mining).

Roi of Macro Orbital: it takes les than one mule to mine the net cost of 215. so 100s for macro cc+35s for orbital+~75s = 210s for ROI. that's significantly longer. However long term OC's seem of enormous value to me ..


How did you manage to land on 215 minerals? Thats some serious magic math^^. Please just stop this hardcore theory crafting and at least try those builds in a build order tester. Yes, mules and OCs are great but they have limits and cost a lot of minerals. You can not just build OCs instead of scvs. That does not work.


i did the calculation a few posts above. Show me where my calculation is wrong or accept the result .. (Note: as one poster correctly mentioned, this calculation does not include opportunity cost, however this is hard to calculate exactly. Short spoken, you have about 1 minute higher exposure to rush's compared to SCV building).
21 is half the truth
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 14:23:38
August 12 2012 14:23 GMT
#1104
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".

So? The game should be balanced for the top and not lower.
Lets say we buff terran till everyone here is happy, any idea how powerful Teaja will be then considering how he is now?
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 14:25:56
August 12 2012 14:25 GMT
#1105
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
August 12 2012 14:26 GMT
#1106
On August 12 2012 23:21 Qikz wrote:
The thing people need to realise is this situation is exactly the same as the Fruitdealer situation.

Fruitdealer at a point was the only zerg to be able to do anything as (at the time) he was playing Zerg the best way anyone could. He made use of things others didn't and won the first GSL. The same thing is happening with Taeja in the fact he's playing perfectly, but he shouldn't be used as the majority as no-one is anywhere near as good as him. Look at his TvP's yesterday. His Micro is something that many people will never be able to pull off and he was winning engagements he probably shouldn't have.


he was far from a 22:3 record. fruitdealer played very very risky, this worked for exactly one tourney.
21 is half the truth
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
August 12 2012 14:27 GMT
#1107
On August 12 2012 23:23 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".

So? The game should be balanced for the top and not lower.
Lets say we buff terran till everyone here is happy, any idea how powerful Teaja will be then considering how he is now?

Okay, so you're alright with reverting every buff that occurred since the FruitDealer era? After all, he was the top level back then, so I guess Zerg wasn't overpowered. I guess we'll also be reverting the Overlord and Queen buffs because DRG said he didn't need them and that he already had scouting down pat.

Care to reevaluate your statement?
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
August 12 2012 14:28 GMT
#1108
On August 12 2012 23:26 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:21 Qikz wrote:
The thing people need to realise is this situation is exactly the same as the Fruitdealer situation.

Fruitdealer at a point was the only zerg to be able to do anything as (at the time) he was playing Zerg the best way anyone could. He made use of things others didn't and won the first GSL. The same thing is happening with Taeja in the fact he's playing perfectly, but he shouldn't be used as the majority as no-one is anywhere near as good as him. Look at his TvP's yesterday. His Micro is something that many people will never be able to pull off and he was winning engagements he probably shouldn't have.


he was far from a 22:3 record. fruitdealer played very very risky, this worked for exactly one tourney.

Going 4CC is extremely risky.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
August 12 2012 14:30 GMT
#1109
On August 12 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.


well given that the current TvZ is ~45%:55% some minor tweaks in playstyle and strategy might swing that back to the historical 60:40. Despite the massive Terran QQ 45:55 is not that imbalanced and a zerg nerf will most probably overcompensate. I think Terrans partially got used to their race advantage a bit
21 is half the truth
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
August 12 2012 14:34 GMT
#1110
On August 12 2012 23:28 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:26 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:21 Qikz wrote:
The thing people need to realise is this situation is exactly the same as the Fruitdealer situation.

Fruitdealer at a point was the only zerg to be able to do anything as (at the time) he was playing Zerg the best way anyone could. He made use of things others didn't and won the first GSL. The same thing is happening with Taeja in the fact he's playing perfectly, but he shouldn't be used as the majority as no-one is anywhere near as good as him. Look at his TvP's yesterday. His Micro is something that many people will never be able to pull off and he was winning engagements he probably shouldn't have.


he was far from a 22:3 record. fruitdealer played very very risky, this worked for exactly one tourney.

Going 4CC is extremely risky.


If you do this blind .. yes. Anyway starcraft is designed that way: You have to take a risk to get ahead, that's why scouting and "starsense" is that important. Since Terran had (imho IMBA) harrass opportunities early game befor getting nerfed, terran was not exposed to that fact. Taking a fast third for a Zerg is always a big risk for a Zerg. Even hatch first is. Terrans need to re-think, as because of big maps and nerfs the harrass-no-risk strats are history (thanks god)
21 is half the truth
Frex
Profile Joined March 2012
Finland888 Posts
August 12 2012 14:35 GMT
#1111
On August 12 2012 23:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.


well given that the current TvZ is ~45%:55% some minor tweaks in playstyle and strategy might swing that back to the historical 60:40. Despite the massive Terran QQ 45:55 is not that imbalanced and a zerg nerf will most probably overcompensate. I think Terrans partially got used to their race advantage a bit


Tbh, maybe it's not imbalanced but honestly can anyone here say for real that they are actually facing fair amount of Terrans on the ladder compared to Zerg or Protoss opponents?
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
August 12 2012 14:40 GMT
#1112
On August 12 2012 23:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.


well given that the current TvZ is ~45%:55% some minor tweaks in playstyle and strategy might swing that back to the historical 60:40. Despite the massive Terran QQ 45:55 is not that imbalanced and a zerg nerf will most probably overcompensate. I think Terrans partially got used to their race advantage a bit

No point arguing with you, then. Once your awful argument is defeated you just fall back on 'oh it's metagame.' Yeah, okay. That's why every successful Terran right now is basically cheesing or doing some ultra-aggressive strat every game while every good Zerg is doing pretty much the same build because it defends against anything.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
August 12 2012 14:41 GMT
#1113
On August 12 2012 23:35 Rokoz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.


well given that the current TvZ is ~45%:55% some minor tweaks in playstyle and strategy might swing that back to the historical 60:40. Despite the massive Terran QQ 45:55 is not that imbalanced and a zerg nerf will most probably overcompensate. I think Terrans partially got used to their race advantage a bit


Tbh, maybe it's not imbalanced but honestly can anyone here say for real that they are actually facing fair amount of Terrans on the ladder compared to Zerg or Protoss opponents?


Agree, Terran is strong at the very low end (because marines+stim counter nearly anything), however in mid to higher mid level it is hard to play, as most players do not have the apm and micro to play Terran effectively. So its mostly a game design issue, not a balance issue. Maybe more mid.level terrans should stick to mech play against zerg. Bio requires a lot of map awareness, micro and multitasking.
21 is half the truth
submarine
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany290 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 14:53:31
August 12 2012 14:41 GMT
#1114
On August 12 2012 22:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Boah, never did the math ..

1 OC costs 400+150 (OC)
you save:
100 for a depot
200 for 4 scv (1 mule ~ 4 scv's)

resulting cost ~250 minerals.
if you turtle well early game, it should not be a problem to get 4 early OC's safely. with 10 OC's you have the mineral income roughly equal to a 3 base zerg with ~50 drones on minerals, while only requiring one mining base.

EDIT: subtract another ~35 as you also save the 4 supply that 4 SCV's would require, so net cost is 215



This is madness. And i hope you know that. If not i'm sorry for you.
Even the numbers you chose make no fuckin sense. why 100 for depot? A OC gives 11 not 8 supply. 4 scvs need 4 supply, a supply depot provides 8. Why do you subtract 35? You also fail to mention build times and mining time lost for that.

On top of that:
The value you calculated is the cost you have to pay more compared to that you had to pay for the same utility provided by scvs and normal supply depots. You made a lot of errors in the calculations. And even if your 215 were right and opportunity cost did not matter: having 215 less is a noticeable difference in early game. You build macro OCs in early game to build scvs faster and mule on top of that. You build macro OCs in late game because you can free up supply with them. An economy based on scvs and mules can grow much faster compared to a pure mule OC eco.

If you still think that that cute idea of yours does work then please start a game and try it.Spoileralert: IT. DOES. NOT. WORK. !!!
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
August 12 2012 14:55 GMT
#1115
On August 12 2012 23:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:35 Rokoz wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:30 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:12 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I love how so many Zergs point to Taeja and say "Do that." That's like saying: "Play perfectly and register an average of 300 apm".


There are tons of pros with a similar APM and even better micro. Taeja+Gumiho do well because they discovered some effective Strategies. One important aspect is obviously the use of macro OC's. And when watching lower level terrans (< GM) it is also obvious they do not make use OC's full potential.

Considering half of the Zergs in GM Roach all-in since most of the maps are smaller than Atlantis Spaceship, you can barely 3OC safely. 4OC? You will die because of your lack of production.

Zergs fail to account for the fact that when Terran completes an Orbital, they don't get a production boost until they make more Barracks. Zerg gets the production the instant it comes up, which makes mass expanding more viable.


well given that the current TvZ is ~45%:55% some minor tweaks in playstyle and strategy might swing that back to the historical 60:40. Despite the massive Terran QQ 45:55 is not that imbalanced and a zerg nerf will most probably overcompensate. I think Terrans partially got used to their race advantage a bit


Tbh, maybe it's not imbalanced but honestly can anyone here say for real that they are actually facing fair amount of Terrans on the ladder compared to Zerg or Protoss opponents?


Agree, Terran is strong at the very low end (because marines+stim counter nearly anything).


False. Infestors, speedlings, and banelings destroy un-efficiently micro'd marines laughably easy. Cost for cost speedlings beat marines.

Marines at the low end aren't as strong because the Terran race requires significantly more micro/player ability than the Zerg.


Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
August 12 2012 15:18 GMT
#1116
On August 12 2012 23:22 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:12 submarine wrote:
On August 12 2012 23:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:50 submarine wrote:
On August 12 2012 21:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 19:49 Bagi wrote:
On August 12 2012 17:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:58 Shiori wrote:
On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy

Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.


I still think Teaja's OC-heavy style is key. You don't go 22-3 just by being a superior player. Teaja outmacros with OC's + mules, so he can fight zerg late game with a macro advantage. Mules are insane, as you do not have oversaturation. You can mine 4000 minerals from one base if you have enough OC's, so you have to cover only few bases and don't lose supply to scv's.

The problem is reaching this point safely on a map that isn't Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship.

Most zergs will push the advantage when they get to hive tech. If all other things are equal but you've invested thousands of minerals into extra CC's, there's no way to hold the typical BL push for example.

It really was the failed early aggression that won Taeja those games, along with the maps that make greedy play so much easier to pull off.


Well, ofc this is not easy, you have to do this reactively (scouting required ) same as a droning zerg. When the Zerg drones hard, you can build OC's, else better build army.


You have to understand that an orbital takes far longer to pay for itself compared to a round of drones. Terran is not designed to play reactive on that level. Terran can't build an army in 2 production cycles like zerg does. To have a certain army at a certain time you have to build the necessary infrastructure far ahead in time. If zerg builds a fast 3rd he can choose to use it to produce an army with it. An OC does not offer that kind of flexibility.


I understand that, however OC's a re still good . The time for ROI (return on investment) of drones is about 1,5 to 2 minutes (build time 17s + walk to minerals line [depends] + 75 seconds of mining).

Roi of Macro Orbital: it takes les than one mule to mine the net cost of 215. so 100s for macro cc+35s for orbital+~75s = 210s for ROI. that's significantly longer. However long term OC's seem of enormous value to me ..


How did you manage to land on 215 minerals? Thats some serious magic math^^. Please just stop this hardcore theory crafting and at least try those builds in a build order tester. Yes, mules and OCs are great but they have limits and cost a lot of minerals. You can not just build OCs instead of scvs. That does not work.


i did the calculation a few posts above. Show me where my calculation is wrong or accept the result .. (Note: as one poster correctly mentioned, this calculation does not include opportunity cost, however this is hard to calculate exactly. Short spoken, you have about 1 minute higher exposure to rush's compared to SCV building).

Math on the OC:
Cost: 550 minerals+67 minerals (lost mining from the building SCV)=617 minerals
If you don't have 200 supply limit yet you save: 125 minerals
Net cost: 492 minerals
MULE mines 180 minerals per minute, so it's about 2:20 game time needed to recoup the cost.
Thus the Payback horizon (because ROI is something else) is 2:45+1:40+0:35=5:00
If you already have 200 supply limit, the Payback horizon lengthens to about 5:40

Result: Your math is flawed.

Apart from that, your concept is also flawed, because time has a different value to terran due to their linear production.
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
August 12 2012 15:20 GMT
#1117
On August 12 2012 23:21 Qikz wrote:
The thing people need to realise is this situation is exactly the same as the Fruitdealer situation.

Fruitdealer at a point was the only zerg to be able to do anything as (at the time) he was playing Zerg the best way anyone could. He made use of things others didn't and won the first GSL. The same thing is happening with Taeja in the fact he's playing perfectly, but he shouldn't be used as the majority as no-one is anywhere near as good as him. Look at his TvP's yesterday. His Micro is something that many people will never be able to pull off and he was winning engagements he probably shouldn't have.



This is not the same situation at all; not even remotely close. FD was playing on bad maps, when the game was still young and developing. This is a completely different situation.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 15:33:03
August 12 2012 15:26 GMT
#1118
On August 12 2012 23:41 submarine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 22:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Boah, never did the math ..

1 OC costs 400+150 (OC)
you save:
100 for a depot
200 for 4 scv (1 mule ~ 4 scv's)

resulting cost ~250 minerals.
if you turtle well early game, it should not be a problem to get 4 early OC's safely. with 10 OC's you have the mineral income roughly equal to a 3 base zerg with ~50 drones on minerals, while only requiring one mining base.

EDIT: subtract another ~35 as you also save the 4 supply that 4 SCV's would require, so net cost is 215



This is madness. And i hope you know that. If not i'm sorry for you.
Even the numbers you chose make no fuckin sense. why 100 for depot? A OC gives 11 not 8 supply. 4 scvs need 4 supply, a supply depot provides 8. Why do you subtract 35? You also fail to mention build times and mining time lost for that.

On top of that:
The value you calculated is the cost you have to pay more compared to that you had to pay for the same utility provided by scvs and normal supply depots. You made a lot of errors in the calculations. And even if your 215 were right and opportunity cost did not matter: having 215 less is a noticeable difference in early game. You build macro OCs in early game to build scvs faster and mule on top of that. You build macro OCs in late game because you can free up supply with them. An economy based on scvs and mules can grow much faster compared to a pure mule OC eco.

If you still think that that cute idea of yours does work then please start a game and try it.Spoileralert: IT. DOES. NOT. WORK. !!!


Ok, i am not that familar with terran numbers, thought a depot was 11 supply

so correction (they get even better):

1 OC costs 550 minerals and gives 11 supply

you save:
~1,3 depots = 130 mins
~4 scv's = 200 mins + save 4 supply = 50 mins, sum: 250 mins

sum savings = 380 mins
subtract from cost of 550:

= 170 net cost (+opportunity cost) edit: +67 mins lost mining time (however you also would lose mining time when building 1,3 depots)

I am not telling you a "cute idea" like going blindly 4 OC.
I just want to mention that OC's are pretty effective and probably underused, and that for some reason successful terran players seem to make heavy use of macro OC's , especially use them as counter to greedy zerg openings
21 is half the truth
Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
August 12 2012 15:36 GMT
#1119
On August 13 2012 00:26 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 23:41 submarine wrote:
On August 12 2012 22:45 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Boah, never did the math ..

1 OC costs 400+150 (OC)
you save:
100 for a depot
200 for 4 scv (1 mule ~ 4 scv's)

resulting cost ~250 minerals.
if you turtle well early game, it should not be a problem to get 4 early OC's safely. with 10 OC's you have the mineral income roughly equal to a 3 base zerg with ~50 drones on minerals, while only requiring one mining base.

EDIT: subtract another ~35 as you also save the 4 supply that 4 SCV's would require, so net cost is 215



This is madness. And i hope you know that. If not i'm sorry for you.
Even the numbers you chose make no fuckin sense. why 100 for depot? A OC gives 11 not 8 supply. 4 scvs need 4 supply, a supply depot provides 8. Why do you subtract 35? You also fail to mention build times and mining time lost for that.

On top of that:
The value you calculated is the cost you have to pay more compared to that you had to pay for the same utility provided by scvs and normal supply depots. You made a lot of errors in the calculations. And even if your 215 were right and opportunity cost did not matter: having 215 less is a noticeable difference in early game. You build macro OCs in early game to build scvs faster and mule on top of that. You build macro OCs in late game because you can free up supply with them. An economy based on scvs and mules can grow much faster compared to a pure mule OC eco.

If you still think that that cute idea of yours does work then please start a game and try it.Spoileralert: IT. DOES. NOT. WORK. !!!


Ok, i am not that familar with terran numbers, thought a depot was 11 supply

so correction (they get even better):

1 OC costs 550 minerals and gives 11 supply

you save:
~1,3 depots = 130 mins
~4 scv's = 200 mins + save 4 supply = 50 mins, sum: 250 mins

sum savings = 380 mins
subtract from cost of 550:

= 170 net cost (+opportunity cost) edit: +67 mins lost mining time (however you also would lose mining time when building 1,3 depots)

I am not telling you a "cute idea" like going blindly 4 OC.
I just want to mention that OC's are pretty effective and probably underused, and that for some reason successful terran players seem to make heavy use of macro OC's , especially use them as counter to greedy zerg openings

How on earth can you subtract the 4SCVs the MULE replaces without subtracting the income of 4SCVs when calculating what the MULE brings?
By that logic a drone is free!
Proof:
1 drone costs 50 minerals
you save:
~1 drone = 50 minerals

OMG! Drones ARE free! It's true!
submarine
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany290 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-12 15:51:28
August 12 2012 15:37 GMT
#1120
You still do not understand. You pay 170 more for the same supply and mining capacity. Thats bad. THe opportunity cost makes it even worse (a lot in fact).
You neglect so much in your calculation. If you just build scvs instead of the OC they start to mine far earlier.

Pros and good players build early macro OCs to mule and build scvs with them. They don't build them only for the mules.
Building them only for the mules only makes sense if the supply cap is a problem. I already told you: Test it in the game and you may understand. I will now stop to talk about this. Its a waste of time.

Just to make clear what you calculated there (Note: Thats Schnullerbacke13s calculations, IMHO it makes no fuckin sense):
The utility you want to buy is: Mineral mining power of 4 scvs, +11 supply

To achieve this you have to invest:

With scvs and depot:
4*50+((11+4)/8)*100 = 387,5

With an OC:
400+150= 550

The OC solution costs 162,5 minerals more. NOTE: That is what schnullerbacke13 calculated.
IMHO this calculation makes no sense. You do not include cost for lost mining time or opportunity cost. Especially the opportunity cost is something you just can not ignore.
Prev 1 54 55 56 57 58 81 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 4
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O272
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Reynor vs ClemLIVE!
RotterdaM2387
ComeBackTV 2177
IndyStarCraft 619
WardiTV450
CranKy Ducklings186
3DClanTV 155
EnkiAlexander 116
Rex66
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2387
IndyStarCraft 619
Rex 66
JuggernautJason35
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 272
NaDa 14
Dota 2
capcasts253
LuMiX2
League of Legends
JimRising 372
febbydoto12
Counter-Strike
fl0m2706
Fnx 2454
Stewie2K635
flusha415
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2575
Mew2King1665
AZ_Axe356
Westballz16
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu582
Khaldor339
Other Games
tarik_tv9892
Grubby3018
summit1g2428
mouzStarbuck156
Sick34
gofns0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3146
StarCraft 2
angryscii 21
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta28
• Adnapsc2 11
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21938
• WagamamaTV1105
League of Legends
• Doublelift4207
Other Games
• imaqtpie1669
• Shiphtur434
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
13h 52m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 12h
WardiTV European League
1d 18h
Online Event
1d 20h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.