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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:56 AdrianHealey wrote: You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. Imagine how it feels when Terrans do drastic techswitches where your corruptors are useless? Oh wait, that never happens. | ||
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NiteWatch
Indonesia58 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote: Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. While Terran has easily the strongest anti-air arsenal overall (marines as a general-purpose unit, thors vs. mutas and vikings vs. big threats like brood lords), calling Zerg the race with the "weakest anti air by far" is simply wrong. They do have a glaring weakness in the form of no general-purpose anti air unit (like marines and stalkers), because hydras are harder to fit in to Zerg army compositions. However, mutas are a great mobile flyer that easily shuts down drop play; corruptors are pretty good at shutting down specific threats like carriers, colossi and battlecruisers; and infestors are very effective at dealing with large packs of air units like vikings, phoenix and void rays. Protoss, on the other hand, do have a good general-purpose anti air unit in the stalker, but have no good anti-air specialist equivalent to the corruptor or the viking that can deal with brood lords or battlecruisers; this anti-air weakness is at the heart of the huge struggle Protoss faces when dealing with large numbers of brood lords in lategame PvZ. I find Protoss to have bigger holes in their anti-air than Zerg overall, but I could see the argument going either way. | ||
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ZeroStarCraft2
Malaysia154 Posts
Z: Queen - Transfuse good, decent ROF (rate of fire) Hydralisk - High ROF Muta - Massed is hard to deal with, fast Corruptor - combined with muta is very hard to beat, durable Fungal Growth - Kind of the reason why Zerg AA is very strong - chain fungals etc. Infested Terran - see terran section P: Sentry - Lol. Stalker - Low ROF, horrible upgrade scale Storm - Magic box may help Archon - Low range Phoenix - Too ineffective against armor. Void Ray - Expensive, slow Carrier - Derp. Mothership - Herp. T: Marines, 'nuff said. IDK what others think, this is what I see. | ||
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Steglich
Denmark282 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:56 AdrianHealey wrote: You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. If Vikings were able to become battlecruisers it would not be a problem. Corrupters -> broodlords | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
So yeah, Zerg's anti-air is good lategame, but a little turtley in the early game (it isn't actually "weak," per se, but doesn't allow you to push into the map very easily). | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
I'd rather have plague with a bigger AoE and super-strong Damage-over-Time than fungal personally (also plague lasts a helluva lot longer). | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 11 2012 23:29 sCCrooked wrote: Some of these suggestions are beyond overpowered. Why don't we just skip all this BS and say what everyone is REALLY thinking... that the infestor is a pretty badly-designed unit that discourages micro (ff too) and Blizz should've just kept the freaking defiler which was very powerful and very key, but not OP or un-breakable by any means. I'd rather have plague with a bigger AoE and super-strong Damage-over-Time than fungal personally (also plague lasts a helluva lot longer). I agree with this. Even as a Protoss player, I hate how stupidly reliant every strategy is on FF. It's a cool spell on the level that it requires skill to use, but it's WAY too strong/necessary right now. I'd rather see it moved to a lategame unit or given a shorter duration or something in exchange for large buffs to Stalker/Zealot. Hell, maybe they could even give the Sentry a different spell like a shield battery or something. | ||
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koffeinfrei
26 Posts
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 11 2012 23:51 Scrubwave wrote: Or remove fungal's ability to freeze units, since it's a terrible design. At least don't let it freeze air units. Like, it's actually retarded that no air unit can be good against BL/Infestor. | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
On August 11 2012 09:58 superstartran wrote: Well said. The more blizzard magnifies macro, the more there will be of stupid build order wins and there will much less in the way of micro. Yes...zerg should be about quantity over quality, but a zerg should do this the honest way...with macro-hatcheries and not with a 'super-unit' that does so much so fast and doesn't cost gas.I've suggested this before but everyone on TL seems to be a Z player and think that it is perfectly fine that they can outproduce and out macro every race in the game by a country mile. Larvae inject, mules, and warpgates are all dumb mechanics. They are "instant" gratification type of macro mechanics that induce volatile type of gameplay, and that is probably the worst type of gameplay you could utilize in a competitive game. It's boring, it's unskillful, and it's just silly to watch. Unfourtanately it's likely we have to live with them because Blizzard is likely never going to do a massive change on these macro mechanics that induce so many problems. As it is now...zerg faces two choice. They either over-drone (drone-cheese) and cross their fingers terran/protoss doesn't attack within a 2-3 minute window they are vulnerable. If P/T doesn't attack...zerg most likely simply outbuilds the opposition into victory. That or zerg throws a 'pitch-out' predicting a two base timing attack. With tech/defense, they fend off the attack...and then they overdrone. They win here as well. With exceptions...but mostly zerg lose simply because they overdroned in the face of a two base timing attack. This is rock-paper-scissors and poker. Not a fun strategy game. Nor does this encourage fun micro. Blizzard in balancing zerg had to create them somewhat weak in the early game, because inject larvae made them so strong in the late game. If their units were stronger in the early game...then once inject larvae started yielding compound interest, zerg would likely win almost every game. Because zerg were then so weak in the early game, Blizzard had to counter by creating a super-unit that didn't require gas, larvae, tech...and could attack air/ground and heal. That so much in balance revolves around one unit is insane. Blizzard seems happy with their 'adjusted win ratios' but they don't realize how two dimensional they've created the matchup. In their minds if terran win 90% of games in which they launch a successfull timing attack and zerg wins 90% of the games that go into the late game, then this is fine and dandy. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:56 AdrianHealey wrote: You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. Are you fucking KIDDING me? Brood fucking lords | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On August 11 2012 23:17 SaYProPlz wrote: I'm pretty sure many people should think that Protoss anti-air is weaker than Zerg. Just because Zerg has less anti-air doesn't mean it's less viable. Z: Queen - Transfuse good, decent ROF (rate of fire) Hydralisk - High ROF Muta - Massed is hard to deal with, fast Corruptor - combined with muta is very hard to beat, durable Fungal Growth - Kind of the reason why Zerg AA is very strong - chain fungals etc. Infested Terran - see terran section P: Sentry - Lol. Stalker - Low ROF, horrible upgrade scale Storm - Magic box may help Archon - Low range Phoenix - Too ineffective against armor. Void Ray - Expensive, slow Carrier - Derp. Mothership - Herp. T: Marines, 'nuff said. IDK what others think, this is what I see. Ur just listing the bad things vs the good things of zerg and protoss units tho. Sentries have guardian shield which makes muta's do really low dmg. Stalkers are great vs vikings and corruptors, especially combined with storm. Dealing with brood lords is too hard without a mothership tho. Fungal not hitting air would make void rays really viable as a way to deal with brood lords. I don't like fungal as an ability anyway since it completely stops u from going air since the risk for reward ratio is way too big. | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
In those games it looked very promising. Yes, in theory zerg can outrange and fungal them but it's pretty hard, especially once you get like 5-6. One of the problems is that it takes roughly 150 seconds for a raven to become useful (from the moment you invest the money). Let's say you want to build 6 HSMs off 3 starports. It will take you 3 and a half minutes. You can also build 15 vikings in half the time. You have no chance of fighting without anti-broodlord tech, and you don't know when he will attack. Building 6 starports is very expensive, and ravens aren't exactly cheap either. Even if it does get buffed, I hope Blizzard will change it in HotS, maybe change HSM to irradiate? So it isn't useless when the zerg chooses ultralisk tech, for example. Eh, we'll see, but it's just another thing of many things that could be so much better/more interesting/are broken (FF, fungal freeze, archon toilet, warp gate etc) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 12 2012 00:31 Jakkerr wrote: Ur just listing the bad things vs the good things of zerg and protoss units tho. Sentries have guardian shield which makes muta's do really low dmg. Stalkers are great vs vikings and corruptors, especially combined with storm. Dealing with brood lords is too hard without a mothership tho. Fungal not hitting air would make void rays really viable as a way to deal with brood lords. I don't like fungal as an ability anyway since it completely stops u from going air since the risk for reward ratio is way too big. It's even hard with a Mothership, lol. I'm convinced that you can't beat a Zerg player who's playing his A-game even with 2 Vortexes. | ||
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etofok
138 Posts
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 12 2012 01:50 734pot wrote: I don't get why people think changing fungal so that it does not affect air units is a good idea. If this were to be implemented there would be no army that could trade at all well with void ray colossus compositions. There is currently no way to trade with BL/Infestor. | ||
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
On August 11 2012 23:04 plogamer wrote: Imagine how it feels when Terrans do drastic techswitches where your corruptors are useless? Oh wait, that never happens. I know how it feels when Protoss does tech switches and you have 10/15 corruptors flying around, being utterly useless.  | ||
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