EPTMaybe the creep range should be 10 to 9, and the queen range should be 3 to 4. Just a perfect balance between the two.
Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 51
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larse
1611 Posts
Maybe the creep range should be 10 to 9, and the queen range should be 3 to 4. Just a perfect balance between the two. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2012 07:58 Fungal Growth wrote: If the issue is late-game TvZ...then raven speed will be irrelevant. By the time it becomes feasable to construct a raven, the game is probrably already out of hand. 20 minutes into a game, the terran is probably 50 supply down and a faster raven zipping accross the map just won't make a difference. If Blizzard wants to balance TvZ late game...they have to address the thousand pound gorrilla in the room...inject larvae. It makes zerg too exponetial or boom/bust. Which creates boring games in which the terran wins off of a two based timing attack or the zerg wins in a game that goes past 18 minutes. Inject larvae needs to be slowed down. In the late game...everybody has lots of money so the best ways to balance the game are with supply costs, unit build speed and for large maps, the movement speed of attacking units (not specialty units). I've suggested this before but everyone on TL seems to be a Z player and think that it is perfectly fine that they can outproduce and out macro every race in the game by a country mile. Larvae inject, mules, and warpgates are all dumb mechanics. They are "instant" gratification type of macro mechanics that induce volatile type of gameplay, and that is probably the worst type of gameplay you could utilize in a competitive game. It's boring, it's unskillful, and it's just silly to watch. Unfourtanately it's likely we have to live with them because Blizzard is likely never going to do a massive change on these macro mechanics that induce so many problems. | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On August 11 2012 09:58 larse wrote: I whine about zerg op all the time, but creep range from 10 to 8 may very well be an over-nerf. Just like the queen range from 3 to 5 is a over-buff. Maybe the creep range should be 10 to 9, and the queen range should be 3 to 4. Just a perfect balance between the two. Someone said that the developers made the queen range buff with HotS in mind, and as of a recent tournament, they told a top player that they're not changing it. So I guess that's set in stone until the expansion beta. | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
On August 11 2012 08:24 Qikz wrote: You say that, yet that's what a hell of a lot of people are saying about the infestor. hahaha, everything you hate is what people hate about infestors. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On August 11 2012 09:58 superstartran wrote: Larvae inject, mules, and warpgates are all dumb mechanics. They are "instant" gratification type of macro mechanics that induce volatile type of gameplay, and that is probably the worst type of gameplay you could utilize in a competitive game. It's boring, it's unskillful, and it's just silly to watch. Unfourtanately it's likely we have to live with them because Blizzard is likely never going to do a massive change on these macro mechanics that induce so many problems. I don't see how you can say that larva injecting is skilless when its only really the top tier of zerg players that manage to keep the energy on their queens low. You can't just save up energy on your queens and dump it all later like you can with the other macro mechanics, its less forgiving in that way. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
Here is the result: This is the one we have now. Creep tumor range of 10. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lhy1Q.jpg) This is the result after the creep nerf. Creep tumor range of 8. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Csc8L.jpg) | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
Why? 1. Infestor on creep is still faster than the raven 2. Fungal has 9 range vs. 6 on the SM 3. Fungal hits instantly and stops micro, SM can be avoided. 4. Fungal roots but also stops raven from using its spells. So how is that for a risk/reward factor? It seems to me that infestor will just hard counter raven usage. So if you try to use raven offensively, as long as zerg manages to get a fungal, and he should since you have a faster unit which also has +3 range over the raven, raven can't do anything. It will just get killed by fungals/inf. terrans. Something of the following should be implemented 1. SM outranges fungal or at least has same range 2. Fungal doesn't root air units 3. Fungal doesn't stop abilities like SM from being used. Even then, 125 energy is too high, but since we are making small steps at least do a small step that actually makes sense first. | ||
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Granter
Sweden64 Posts
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
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parkin
1080 Posts
On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote: How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units  | ||
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SaberNodoka
151 Posts
Except for muta since Zergs also counter argue that ZvZ will be muta heaven without it. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On August 11 2012 21:42 SaberNodoka wrote: Except for muta since Zergs also counter argue that ZvZ will be muta heaven without it. So make mechanical air units immune? | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
It should be fair enough if it would slow them down a little. The truth is that you have to be careful if you consider nerfing zergs anti-air since it's weakest of all races. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 11 2012 09:58 larse wrote: I whine about zerg op all the time, but creep range from 10 to 8 may very well be an over-nerf. Just like the queen range from 3 to 5 is a over-buff. Maybe the creep range should be 10 to 9, and the queen range should be 3 to 4. Just a perfect balance between the two. I hope you are kidding. They should nerf the creep much much more. Take a look at your own test and note what a minor change it is... | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote: Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. It shouldn't be as bad when it comes down to HoTS due to the way hydras are getting a huge movement buff. Also spores and corrupters are pretty damned good at anti air. | ||
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:50 Qikz wrote: It shouldn't be as bad when it comes down to HoTS due to the way hydras are getting a huge movement buff. Also spores and corrupters are pretty damned good at anti air. You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote: Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. Queens, Corruptors and Infestors = having the weakest anti-air by far? Biased Zergs are so hilarious. | ||
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kodas
United States418 Posts
On August 11 2012 15:34 larse wrote: I did a comparison. No enemy. 15 hatch ---> 4 queens ---> 4 queen spread creeps as fast as I can ----> I did a screenshot after 14 minutes Here is the result: This is the one we have now. Creep tumor range of 10. + Show Spoiler + This is the result after the creep nerf. Creep tumor range of 8. That's a bit misleading, the first screenshot has about 6 seconds on the 2nd, makes the gap look bigger.. | ||
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