Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 49

On August 11 2012 03:02 TheDwf wrote:

100% true, for instance the Cloud Kingdom Overlord spot is absolutely ridiculous.

On August 11 2012 03:55 Nourek wrote:
I don't think removing any safe spots to park an overlord before flying it in would be good balance wise. However I think that those spots that allow you to easily and safely scout any units moving out could probably go.

On August 11 2012 03:04 Shiori wrote:

The point is that losing Drones for cost against Hellions isn't worth it, because opening Hellions requires a Factory + Reactor, which implies certain things about the Terran's production, and, furthermore, costs them gas. A Zerg who remakes 8 Drones off 3 base is fine because they know the Terran just lost all their map control, will have smaller bio, and a later third.

The idea that forcing Zerg to make units instead of Drones is damage is actually just completely false, because it costs the other races just as much (if not more) as the Zerg to actually put on pressure to begin with. Whether or not it forces the Zerg to do something doesn't matter, because the aggressor also had to sacrifice. The real problem is that if nobody pressures, Zerg is ahead. If the non-Zerg pressures and it doesn't work, the aggressor is behind. Do you not see why it's a problem when Blizzard keeps nerfing any pressure that they perceive is "too reliable"? There need to be pressures which work every time, because a situation with no pressure means Zerg gets super ahead.

It's not even a matter of Zerg's lategame being way better than anyone else's. It's that they get there way earlier because they can play so much greedier without it being risky. I can't triple Nexus against Zerg no matter what they do. There's no way I'm going to get to MS/Archon/Colossus/Carrier/Void Ray with 3/3 upgrades before a Zerg gets their mega composition. That's the problem. The other races are required to slow Zerg down somehow, which is fine, but every time they find out a way that actually works, it gets nerfed because it's too reliable. Well, uh, how are we supposed to slow Zerg down if we have to rely on the element of surprise every game?

On August 11 2012 03:55 Nourek wrote:

I don't think removing any safe spots to park an overlord before flying it in would be good balance wise. However I think that those spots that allow you to easily and safely scout any units moving out could probably go.

On August 11 2012 04:16 MasterFischer wrote:
It's like... in order to beat a GM zerg, you need to be pro.

In order to beat a master zerg, you need to be entry level or higher GM

In order to beat a diamond zerg, you need to be master..

and so on

On August 11 2012 04:25 Aurrora wrote:
or maybe lifting a building and killing the overlord? so innovative....

On August 11 2012 03:04 Shiori wrote:

The point is that losing Drones for cost against Hellions isn't worth it, because opening Hellions requires a Factory + Reactor, which implies certain things about the Terran's production, and, furthermore, costs them gas. A Zerg who remakes 8 Drones off 3 base is fine because they know the Terran just lost all their map control, will have smaller bio, and a later third.

The idea that forcing Zerg to make units instead of Drones is damage is actually just completely false, because it costs the other races just as much (if not more) as the Zerg to actually put on pressure to begin with. Whether or not it forces the Zerg to do something doesn't matter, because the aggressor also had to sacrifice. The real problem is that if nobody pressures, Zerg is ahead. If the non-Zerg pressures and it doesn't work, the aggressor is behind. Do you not see why it's a problem when Blizzard keeps nerfing any pressure that they perceive is "too reliable"? There need to be pressures which work every time, because a situation with no pressure means Zerg gets super ahead.

It's not even a matter of Zerg's lategame being way better than anyone else's. It's that they get there way earlier because they can play so much greedier without it being risky. I can't triple Nexus against Zerg no matter what they do. There's no way I'm going to get to MS/Archon/Colossus/Carrier/Void Ray with 3/3 upgrades before a Zerg gets their mega composition. That's the problem. The other races are required to slow Zerg down somehow, which is fine, but every time they find out a way that actually works, it gets nerfed because it's too reliable. Well, uh, how are we supposed to slow Zerg down if we have to rely on the element of surprise every game?

On August 11 2012 05:27 Crow! wrote:
The special help-zerg-only map features which are pretty much standard on maps these days seem odd to me, when everyone freaks out if a map has features which Terrans can take advantage of marginally more than the other races can.

On August 11 2012 05:28 Shiori wrote:
It should also be noted that most of those all-ins Zergs had troubled spotting are now completely visible because of the Overlord change. I was completely fine with the Overlord buff. The problem here is that there was no need to also buff the Queen to help against those pressures, since they would no longer be unscouted.

On August 11 2012 01:26 Aurrora wrote:
High master on NA

On August 11 2012 05:32 wcr.4fun wrote:
I'm laughing out loud when people are calling zerg the easy mode race. Pretty sure TOSS has always been the easy mode race which requires 50 apm and one ball of units to a-move.

At anything below grand master, zerg is not the easy mode race. I can't comment on higher level play since I don't play at that level, but toss sure as hell is a lot easier than zerg.

On August 11 2012 05:46 BeyondCtrL wrote:




So mid level Diamond EU and Low plat KR?

But the fact that you think that Z is behind from a FFE from Toss prolly means you're silver/gold.

To interject in the argument Protoss isn't as stupidly behind as some claim. ZvP is a close but ultimately boring MU. Mostly because both sides are practically immune to almost every all in when it's spotted. Of the two, however, Zerg prolly takes the cake due to the fact that they can use only 1 single build in any MU and get ahead without any real risk and have no real decision to make as to what their mid-late game composition is going to be.

On August 11 2012 05:55 shockaslim wrote:



I just wanted to comment on the bolded because that really isn't necessary and EU isn't so godly that no NA player can beat them.

But in regards to both sides being immune to all-ins.....not so sure about that. Protosses can know that the maxed roach push is coming and still get rolled. Seven-Gate Immortal all-in is incredibly difficult to hold whether you see it coming or not.

On August 11 2012 05:46 BeyondCtrL wrote:




So mid level Diamond EU

On August 11 2012 06:06 Shiori wrote:

High Masters NA = slightly lower high Masters EU.

High Masters NA = mid Masters KR (maybe a little lower if there is delay).

Have no idea where this fucking retarded idea that like Bronze KR = Plat NA came from, but it's stupid. I'm pretty sure the EU > NA perspective just comes from bias. Both ladders are pretty much the same. It used to be that NA GM was a lot weaker, but so many Koreans play on it that now it's pretty much the same. As for Masters, though, it's essentially the same as NA Masters.