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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:13 TheDwf wrote: Who cares since the Protoss can't do anything about you going fast third anyway? There are like 8-15 builds designed specificly for protoss to deny or delay the zerg third base. Most of them are very good, allow you to get scouting information and keep the zerg from going pure drones. I don't see much of an issue with that match up. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:15 Aurrora wrote: I don't go for my fast 3 base. I stick on 2 base for much longer. I only make 2 defensive queens, I make a spine, and I make a zergling wall at the top of my ramp so they can't run by into my main. I get my gas earlier but with 2 geysers instead of 3. And it is the threat of helion run by that is making me make the precautions. There's no reason to invest in a third base if the terran is going for banshee, which is very common after reactor helion. Or mass helion can cancel the third also. So i take my third hatchery in my base. 1. Macro build ≠ zero defence. Because you had to make a Spine and some Zerglings did not mean this was not a macro build. 2. Thanks to Blizzard being absolutely clueless, you can now go third without any Zerglings or Spines anyway. Hellions no longer force units or a Spine. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:21 TheDwf wrote: 1. Macro build ≠ zero defence. Because you had to make a Spine and some Zerglings did not mean this was not a macro build. 2. Thanks to Blizzard being absolutely clueless, you can now go third without any Zerglings or Spines anyway. Hellions no longer force units or a Spine. Lol what level do you play at? You do know we are talking about reactor helion expand right? Do you not understand how fast helions melt drones? The reason I can't go for a third base and instead do what I said in the above post is because the helions come out MUCH faster. The reason I can take a third base while being on 6 queens (4 for defense) is because your helions come MUCH later when doing a 1 rax expand into reactor helion and I just spent 600 minerals into defense. If you trade helions for drones, you're in a really good spot. You may have lost 400 minerals of your army, but I now just lost 400 minerals of drones. That is huge, it hurts me much more than it hurts you because I have to remake those drones while you have a much better economoy than zerg. That is why I can't go for a fast 3rd base and stay only on queens and slow lings (not enough queens are out fast enough and slow lings don't do much against helions). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:17 Aurrora wrote: Who cares since Zerg can't do anything about you going FFE anyway? Having an extra mineral line allows you to have the economic advantage. You don't care about Protoss going FFE because taking a third gives you an edge; then it's all about retaining that edge, whereas Protoss has to do something to catch up. This is not the same situation at all. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:27 TheDwf wrote: Having an extra mineral line allows you to have the economic advantage. You don't care about Protoss going FFE because taking a third gives you an edge; then it's all about retaining that edge, whereas Protoss has to do something to catch up. This is not the same situation at all. I'm curious, what level do you play at? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:26 Aurrora wrote: Lol what level do you play at? Mid-GM on Europe, and you? On August 11 2012 01:26 Aurrora wrote: You do know we are talking about reactor helion expand right? You do know this build is out of fashion and nearly extinct because it lost its main purposes, right? | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote: Mid-GM on Europe, and you? You do know this build is out of fashion and nearly extinct because it lost its main purposes, right? High master on NA. I did a quick search and you play terran and in a previous post you said "High Master Terran on Europe here, sometimes playing GMs. Since I'm usually only a spectator for the PvZ match-up, I will not talk about the Phoenix change." Maybe you should play some more pvz or zvp before you comment on the matchup. I don't comment on tvp or pvt because I have no idea what the hell is going on. Maybe you should do the same? Oh, and that's why demuslim still does reactor helion (a variaton tho) where he can take 3 cc's faster. Totally extinct. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
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Dzerzhinsky
Scotland327 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:26 Aurrora wrote: Lol what level do you play at? You do know we are talking about reactor helion expand right? Do you not understand how fast helions melt drones? The reason I can't go for a third base and instead do what I said in the above post is because the helions come out MUCH faster. The reason I can take a third base while being on 6 queens (4 for defense) is because your helions come MUCH later when doing a 1 rax expand into reactor helion and I just spent 600 minerals into defense. If you trade helions for drones, you're in a really good spot. You may have lost 400 minerals of your army, but I now just lost 400 minerals of drones. That is huge, it hurts me much more than it hurts you because I have to remake those drones while you have a much better economoy than zerg. That is why I can't go for a fast 3rd base and stay only on queens and slow lings (not enough queens are out fast enough and slow lings don't do much against helions). I reactor Hellion expand, and you can still quite safely go 3 fast Hatch (as 90% of Zergs do without a second thought). Hellions are never going to kill it, so you don't need to rush to defend it immediately, and a few Queens alongside a semi-wall-off and/or a Spine at the natural will make a Hellion run-by a waste of time. The only thing you really need to worry about is getting your Queens caught way out of position. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:37 Aurrora wrote: High master on NA. I did a quick search and you play terran and in a previous post you said "High Master Terran on Europe here, sometimes playing GMs. Since I'm usually only a spectator for the PvZ match-up, I will not talk about the Phoenix change." Maybe you should play some more pvz or zvp before you comment on the matchup. I don't comment on tvp or pvt because I have no idea what the hell is going on. Maybe you should do the same? Doesn't take a ZvP specialist to know the things I talked about, but whatever. On August 11 2012 01:37 Aurrora wrote: Oh, and that's why demuslim still does reactor helion (a variaton tho) where he can take 3 cc's faster. Totally extinct. Which is probably why I said nearly extinct? | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:39 Dzerzhinsky wrote: I reactor Hellion expand, and you can still quite safely go 3 fast Hatch (as 90% of Zergs do without a second thought). Hellions are never going to kill it, so you don't need to rush to defend it immediately, and a few Queens alongside a semi-wall-off and/or a Spine at the natural will make a Hellion run-by a waste of time. The only thing you really need to worry about is getting your Queens caught way out of position. Lets say like, Ohana, creep spread will take too long to get down to my third, even then, there is no way I can take my third early enough (before six minutes since that is when helions get to my base). And if theyre doing this, theyre cutting drones, which makes the before-six-minute-hatch a real burdeon. Maybe you should go banshee after going reactor helions, you'll kill the third hatch, zerg will be really low on drones from having to make spores. And if they go for a fast third hatch, go for a run by if the queens are out of place to defend the third hatch. Zerg can't do everything at once. Can't expand, can't make units/defense, and can't have an amazing economy. It's a trade-off. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:43 TheDwf wrote: Doesn't take a ZvP specialist to know the things I talked about, but whatever. Which is probably why I said nearly extinct? I have always wondered why terran's didn't just do the same build, but cut four hellions to build a fast third. The first 2 hellions look like they would be enough to see a roach rush comming and the fast third would allow them to keep up with the zerg. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:43 TheDwf wrote: Doesn't take a ZvP specialist to know the things I talked about, but whatever. Which is probably why I said nearly extinct? If it lost its main purpose, why would pros still be using it? I've seen a game where 4 helions, ran by 4 queens and a spine, and killed 8 drones. The queens shot at them as they went by but queens still tickle helions. The only way the queens are going to do any real damage is if theyre blocking them from moving forward. I think it was idra vs demuslim on idra's stream where it happened. | ||
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Moony
United States533 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:49 Plansix wrote: I have always wondered why terran's didn't just do the same build, but cut four hellions to build a fast third. The first 2 hellions look like they would be enough to see a roach rush comming and the fast third would allow them to keep up with the zerg. This kind of build does exist, such as 1 rax FE with 15 gas. ThorZaIN plays them sometimes. On August 11 2012 01:50 Aurrora wrote: If it lost its main purpose, why would pros still be using it? Some pros—mainstream opening is now gasless 1 rax FE → reactor hellion. About why, you ask them (maybe safety, maybe they're just used to it, maybe they want to tech something faster with the early gas, etc.), but the sure thing is that they won't deny creep spread and third against 5-range Queens. On August 11 2012 01:50 Aurrora wrote: I've seen a game where 4 helions, ran by 4 queens and a spine, and killed 8 drones. The queens shot at them as they went by but queens still tickle helions. The only way the queens are going to do any real damage is if theyre blocking them from moving forward. I think it was idra vs demuslim on idra's stream where it happened. Wow, 4 hellions killed 8 drones, so what? Time to press SDDDDDDDD and build even more drones I guess? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2012 02:04 TheDwf wrote: Wow, 4 hellions killed 8 drones, so what? Time to press SDDDDDDDD and build even more drones I guess? And then the terran can go double e-bay and get those beefy upgrades because thats 8 larva that arn't going to be units. Then press MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and get all the +1 marines. Is this really a discussion people need to be having? You are both masters level, time to make a custom game and settle this once and for all. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On August 11 2012 02:13 Plansix wrote: And then the terran can go double e-bay and get those beefy upgrades because thats 8 larva that arn't going to be units. Then press MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and get all the +1 marines. Is this really a discussion people need to be having? You are both masters level, time to make a custom game and settle this once and for all. Yep, with the zerg player in charge of the terran pieces and vice versa. I know where my money would be... | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On August 11 2012 02:13 Plansix wrote: And then the terran can go double e-bay and get those beefy upgrades because thats 8 larva that arn't going to be units. Then press MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and get all the +1 marines. Is this really a discussion people need to be having? You are both masters level, time to make a custom game and settle this once and for all. Aren't Marines on "A", if you play standard or whatever it's called? | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 02:13 Plansix wrote: And then the terran can go double e-bay and get those beefy upgrades because thats 8 larva that arn't going to be units. Then press MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and get all the +1 marines. Is this really a discussion people need to be having? You are both masters level, time to make a custom game and settle this once and for all. I'm not looking to play anyone to "settle balance" because I'm not one of the best players in the world. Even then, if the 2 best players in the world play and one wins more than the other, it doesn't indicate balance. But ya, you are right. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 02:22 Aurrora wrote: I'm not looking to play anyone to "settle balance" because I'm not one of the best players in the world. Even then, if the 2 best players in the world play and one wins more than the other, it doesn't indicate balance. I'm just trying to explain that zerg isn't as imba as people think. We've had to play reactively for the longest time and think about the game where as the other races, they do all 1 base all ins and abusive builds that zerg can't really handle too well before the patch. Now that terrans and toss have to think about the game, theyre behind because they havent been thinking about it for the 2 years the game has been out. I've always been trying to think about how to take the game into the midgame without dieing (thinking about the game) where my other opponents do 1 base all ins or 2 base all ins for the first year and a half. I'm not talking about everyone, but most. So now that zerg is better at holding off all ins, everyone is calling them imba. Terrans are doing really well on the pro scene right now so... point proven, at least in tvz  How hilarious. Do you seriously think what you just wrote? Really, Terrans were mostly playing 1- or 2-base all-ins in TvZ pre-patch? I guess that's why Blizzard killed Snipe, right—to hinder 1-base Ghosts all-ins I assume? | ||
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