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Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 45

Forum Index > SC2 General
1619 CommentsPost a Reply
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734pot
Profile Joined June 2012
Australia294 Posts
August 10 2012 03:45 GMT
#881
I wouldn't completely dismiss the validity of a nerf to fungal, but with consideration of the fact that it is the only thing in the entire zerg arsenal that is effective once terran and protoss begin to get masses of their greatly cost efficient units. Balancing such a thing will be very difficult and i think this is due to poor design of zerg. In the early game, zerg does not require any sort of strong AoE, but once T and P begin to mass large amounts of their cost-effective units - marine/marauder and stalker/colossus/immortal zerg needs some sort of AoE to keep up with the insane dps of the opposing army which itself has some sort of AoE in the form of tanks and colossi. While banelings are designed to fulfill this role they can easily be countered with micro and it is possible to out micro a terran or protoss who splits well, thus for zerg not to outright die in the midgame infestors and particularly their bind is needed to give any sort of effectiveness to the AoE of the baneling. This, it can be argued, is too much of a strong combination, but without it zerg has no chance in the later stages of the midgame. To me it seems that the problem with the design of the game is that zerg has no unit that just sits there and does AoE OR no ranged attack that doesn't die incredibly quickly (hydras). I am not proposing that the problem would be fixed with the addition of such a unit, I am merely pointing out why i see that it is incredibly difficult to balance the AoE of the zerg in the form of fungal.

Some have argued that it should not effect air, this could be somewhat viable in TvZ in order to give Terran air more survivability, however, this would in my opinion make the PvZ matchup imbalanced, as zerg would once again have no reasonable counter to the void ray collosssus death ball.
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
August 10 2012 03:49 GMT
#882
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:



this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
Embir
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland567 Posts
August 10 2012 04:05 GMT
#883
On August 10 2012 12:45 734pot wrote:
I wouldn't completely dismiss the validity of a nerf to fungal, but with consideration of the fact that it is the only thing in the entire zerg arsenal that is effective once terran and protoss begin to get masses of their greatly cost efficient units. Balancing such a thing will be very difficult and i think this is due to poor design of zerg. In the early game, zerg does not require any sort of strong AoE, but once T and P begin to mass large amounts of their cost-effective units - marine/marauder and stalker/colossus/immortal zerg needs some sort of AoE to keep up with the insane dps of the opposing army which itself has some sort of AoE in the form of tanks and colossi. While banelings are designed to fulfill this role they can easily be countered with micro and it is possible to out micro a terran or protoss who splits well, thus for zerg not to outright die in the midgame infestors and particularly their bind is needed to give any sort of effectiveness to the AoE of the baneling. This, it can be argued, is too much of a strong combination, but without it zerg has no chance in the later stages of the midgame. To me it seems that the problem with the design of the game is that zerg has no unit that just sits there and does AoE OR no ranged attack that doesn't die incredibly quickly (hydras). I am not proposing that the problem would be fixed with the addition of such a unit, I am merely pointing out why i see that it is incredibly difficult to balance the AoE of the zerg in the form of fungal.

Some have argued that it should not effect air, this could be somewhat viable in TvZ in order to give Terran air more survivability, however, this would in my opinion make the PvZ matchup imbalanced, as zerg would once again have no reasonable counter to the void ray collosssus death ball.


I guess Lurker would be nice. I as Terran would like to see it instead of Infestor vel. "counter to all units in game".
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
August 10 2012 04:11 GMT
#884
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
August 10 2012 04:14 GMT
#885
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).


Can't take what Nestea say about balance seriously, he only does it to laugh.
Like hell, MVP was complaining about terran en early 2011.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
August 10 2012 04:21 GMT
#886
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
FHC Nex
Profile Joined July 2011
Bulgaria44 Posts
August 10 2012 04:28 GMT
#887
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)



IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
"It seems that whenever a Terran wins its because "Terran OP" not because the player played well. "Terran OP" has been around since beta and its became an excuse for losses"
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
August 10 2012 04:49 GMT
#888
On August 10 2012 13:28 FHC Nex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)



IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.


"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."

and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.

On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)


gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
734pot
Profile Joined June 2012
Australia294 Posts
August 10 2012 05:15 GMT
#889
On August 10 2012 13:05 Embir wrote:
I guess Lurker would be nice. I as Terran would like to see it instead of Infestor vel. "counter to all units in game".


Yeah I agree with you, but I doubt that there is any chance of that. Its just such terrible design that zerg has no opportunity to out-micro their opponent so a unit needs to be implemented that negates micro.
TERRANLOL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States626 Posts
August 10 2012 05:38 GMT
#890
On August 09 2012 05:26 Zeon0 wrote:
sure, lets make Terran even better in ultralategame energy wars


LOL there's always that ONE guy
"fuckin ravens going too fast can't deal with it"
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
August 10 2012 05:52 GMT
#891
On August 10 2012 06:35 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 06:21 RavenLoud wrote:
On August 10 2012 05:38 Cereb wrote:
Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s




The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.

To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread...

I second this notion. Some people will never be pleased.

so basically you guys.... are whining that people are whining?

Yep, and you're whining about people whining about people whining.
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
August 10 2012 06:03 GMT
#892
On August 10 2012 13:49 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:28 FHC Nex wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)



IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.


"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."

and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.

Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)


gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?

In his match against the kespa player in wcs, gumiho made ghosts lategame. He basically used them for everything. He nuked brood lord army attack paths to delay them, as well as zerg bases. He cloaked ghosts and emped infestors. Once the zerg wisened to this, he sniped infestors with snipes long range and actively tried to snipe the overseer. Admittedly, this was vs a kespa player, but the kespa player played extremely well and really showcased very solid zerg. And ghosts were very solid against his opponent, seeming natural and allowing him to control space and limit the amount of fungals.
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 06:12:34
August 10 2012 06:10 GMT
#893
On August 10 2012 14:52 RavenLoud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 06:35 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 06:21 RavenLoud wrote:
On August 10 2012 05:38 Cereb wrote:
Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s




The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.

To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread...

I second this notion. Some people will never be pleased.

so basically you guys.... are whining that people are whining?

Yep, and you're whining about people whining about people whining.

?

I'm asking if you're whining

asking if one is whining != whining


On August 10 2012 15:03 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:49 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:28 FHC Nex wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)



IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.


"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."

and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.

On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)


gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?

In his match against the kespa player in wcs, gumiho made ghosts lategame. He basically used them for everything. He nuked brood lord army attack paths to delay them, as well as zerg bases. He cloaked ghosts and emped infestors. Once the zerg wisened to this, he sniped infestors with snipes long range and actively tried to snipe the overseer. Admittedly, this was vs a kespa player, but the kespa player played extremely well and really showcased very solid zerg. And ghosts were very solid against his opponent, seeming natural and allowing him to control space and limit the amount of fungals.


Ah i see, thanks.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
August 10 2012 06:13 GMT
#894
On August 10 2012 15:10 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 14:52 RavenLoud wrote:
On August 10 2012 06:35 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 06:21 RavenLoud wrote:
On August 10 2012 05:38 Cereb wrote:
Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s




The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.

To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread...

I second this notion. Some people will never be pleased.

so basically you guys.... are whining that people are whining?

Yep, and you're whining about people whining about people whining.

?

I'm asking if you're whining

asking if one is whining != whining

Lol whatever. We all know that was a rhetorical question. I wasn't that serious anyway, maybe I should have added a smile or something.
merz
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Sweden2760 Posts
August 10 2012 06:20 GMT
#895
...Give me a real change that matters.

Why don't they try removing the ability to cancel morphing creep tumours? It would balance out the new ranged queen vs hellions in the creep deny battle. Zergs wouldn't just be able to spam away tumours without thinking about it, and terran would know if they actually comitted to targetting down a tumour it wouldnt get cancelled.
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 07:58:29
August 10 2012 07:57 GMT
#896
On August 10 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote:
Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/

Thinking about it, I'd be interested in a HSM like that, but after the 15 sec(when it starts speeding up), it's dmg when it lands also gets decreased(down to maybe 50 with 25/12.5 aoe?). So when you get a HSM off, it will deal dmg but you can still mitigate it. Admittedly it'd still need a buff so the ravens could actually get the HSM off.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
August 10 2012 08:44 GMT
#897
On August 10 2012 13:28 FHC Nex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:49 Bippzy wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:27 Rowrin wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:25 neoghaleon55 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvEhuKssls


this video scares the crap out of me.


Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.

I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.

Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).

On topic.

Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).

An anecdote to boot:

Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.

TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.

a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win
a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?

In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason.
I'll try again.

I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)



IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.


A creep nerf is needed, indeed. I was amazed when zergs complained that, when their hatches died, the larvae blocked their new hatch. Well, 1 overlord can drop creep and delay your expansion for more then a minute.

The queen patch made it that 2 base terran timings became not viable. No problem, said the terrans, we go for a fast third! This results in the fact that you can't attack the zerg before 12:00 and this results in a huge creep spread. But but but.... what about banshee hellion? This delays the creep indeed, but it also delays the next timing attack, since gas went into banshees, and not into grades and other important stuff. This gives the zerg again a chance to spread too much creep.

Creep makes it almost impossible for terrans to trade cost efficiënt, and we all know what happens when you start trading not cost efficiënt against zerg as terran...
Charon1979
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria317 Posts
August 10 2012 09:17 GMT
#898
A creep nerf is needed, indeed. I was amazed when zergs complained that, when their hatches died, the larvae blocked their new hatch. Well, 1 overlord can drop creep and delay your expansion for more then a minute.


Ah I see... there is no difference between an opponent blocking your hatch and a bug blocking your hatch... wow.
Maybe there should be a bug which makes your "land" button disapear after you lifted your orbital. Guess that makes no difference to you.
Dwayn
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany949 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 09:42:36
August 10 2012 09:42 GMT
#899
well, you can clear your expansion before you fly your orbital over. It's really not that complicated...
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
August 10 2012 09:52 GMT
#900
On August 10 2012 18:42 Dwayn wrote:
well, you can clear your expansion before you fly your orbital over. It's really not that complicated...


Whoa, you just revolutionized TvZ.
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