I wouldn't completely dismiss the validity of a nerf to fungal, but with consideration of the fact that it is the only thing in the entire zerg arsenal that is effective once terran and protoss begin to get masses of their greatly cost efficient units. Balancing such a thing will be very difficult and i think this is due to poor design of zerg. In the early game, zerg does not require any sort of strong AoE, but once T and P begin to mass large amounts of their cost-effective units - marine/marauder and stalker/colossus/immortal zerg needs some sort of AoE to keep up with the insane dps of the opposing army which itself has some sort of AoE in the form of tanks and colossi. While banelings are designed to fulfill this role they can easily be countered with micro and it is possible to out micro a terran or protoss who splits well, thus for zerg not to outright die in the midgame infestors and particularly their bind is needed to give any sort of effectiveness to the AoE of the baneling. This, it can be argued, is too much of a strong combination, but without it zerg has no chance in the later stages of the midgame. To me it seems that the problem with the design of the game is that zerg has no unit that just sits there and does AoE OR no ranged attack that doesn't die incredibly quickly (hydras). I am not proposing that the problem would be fixed with the addition of such a unit, I am merely pointing out why i see that it is incredibly difficult to balance the AoE of the zerg in the form of fungal.
Some have argued that it should not effect air, this could be somewhat viable in TvZ in order to give Terran air more survivability, however, this would in my opinion make the PvZ matchup imbalanced, as zerg would once again have no reasonable counter to the void ray collosssus death ball.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
On August 10 2012 12:45 734pot wrote: I wouldn't completely dismiss the validity of a nerf to fungal, but with consideration of the fact that it is the only thing in the entire zerg arsenal that is effective once terran and protoss begin to get masses of their greatly cost efficient units. Balancing such a thing will be very difficult and i think this is due to poor design of zerg. In the early game, zerg does not require any sort of strong AoE, but once T and P begin to mass large amounts of their cost-effective units - marine/marauder and stalker/colossus/immortal zerg needs some sort of AoE to keep up with the insane dps of the opposing army which itself has some sort of AoE in the form of tanks and colossi. While banelings are designed to fulfill this role they can easily be countered with micro and it is possible to out micro a terran or protoss who splits well, thus for zerg not to outright die in the midgame infestors and particularly their bind is needed to give any sort of effectiveness to the AoE of the baneling. This, it can be argued, is too much of a strong combination, but without it zerg has no chance in the later stages of the midgame. To me it seems that the problem with the design of the game is that zerg has no unit that just sits there and does AoE OR no ranged attack that doesn't die incredibly quickly (hydras). I am not proposing that the problem would be fixed with the addition of such a unit, I am merely pointing out why i see that it is incredibly difficult to balance the AoE of the zerg in the form of fungal.
Some have argued that it should not effect air, this could be somewhat viable in TvZ in order to give Terran air more survivability, however, this would in my opinion make the PvZ matchup imbalanced, as zerg would once again have no reasonable counter to the void ray collosssus death ball.
I guess Lurker would be nice. I as Terran would like to see it instead of Infestor vel. "counter to all units in game".
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
Can't take what Nestea say about balance seriously, he only does it to laugh. Like hell, MVP was complaining about terran en early 2011.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."
and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?
On August 10 2012 13:05 Embir wrote: I guess Lurker would be nice. I as Terran would like to see it instead of Infestor vel. "counter to all units in game".
Yeah I agree with you, but I doubt that there is any chance of that. Its just such terrible design that zerg has no opportunity to out-micro their opponent so a unit needs to be implemented that negates micro.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."
and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?
In his match against the kespa player in wcs, gumiho made ghosts lategame. He basically used them for everything. He nuked brood lord army attack paths to delay them, as well as zerg bases. He cloaked ghosts and emped infestors. Once the zerg wisened to this, he sniped infestors with snipes long range and actively tried to snipe the overseer. Admittedly, this was vs a kespa player, but the kespa player played extremely well and really showcased very solid zerg. And ghosts were very solid against his opponent, seeming natural and allowing him to control space and limit the amount of fungals.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
"And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me."
and then they move their queens to the edge of the creep (if they are still alive) and then they can spread it, and it's just like you didn't scan in the first place.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
gumiho style ghosts? what does he use them for specifically?
In his match against the kespa player in wcs, gumiho made ghosts lategame. He basically used them for everything. He nuked brood lord army attack paths to delay them, as well as zerg bases. He cloaked ghosts and emped infestors. Once the zerg wisened to this, he sniped infestors with snipes long range and actively tried to snipe the overseer. Admittedly, this was vs a kespa player, but the kespa player played extremely well and really showcased very solid zerg. And ghosts were very solid against his opponent, seeming natural and allowing him to control space and limit the amount of fungals.
Why don't they try removing the ability to cancel morphing creep tumours? It would balance out the new ranged queen vs hellions in the creep deny battle. Zergs wouldn't just be able to spam away tumours without thinking about it, and terran would know if they actually comitted to targetting down a tumour it wouldnt get cancelled.
On August 10 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote: Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/
Thinking about it, I'd be interested in a HSM like that, but after the 15 sec(when it starts speeding up), it's dmg when it lands also gets decreased(down to maybe 50 with 25/12.5 aoe?). So when you get a HSM off, it will deal dmg but you can still mitigate it. Admittedly it'd still need a buff so the ravens could actually get the HSM off.
Congrats, seeker missle works vs players who spam click their units to the same position, like some disorder, and stand still as a wtf-flock of ravens inches their way towards them to dump off missles.
I mean seriously, you have to be actively be trying to get your units that clumped up for them to sit there and take that type of damage from seeker missle.
Chill out, he was just hyping the raven, he was not trying to flamebait(if he was trying, it did work).
On topic.
Although the creep change would allow terrans to deny creep more(and less of it) and thus increase the amount of places they can engage in, I feel that the creep change is unneccesary and the raven change is fine, due to Leenocks interview stating that Nestea said the matchups were even, and ravens not being used to their full potential(and I can understand a nudge like the warp prism got).
An anecdote to boot:
Me and my friend played mario power tennis in middle school and high school(every once in a while we still do). My friend would play the fast koopa, and run circles around the balanced luigi. But then I discoved that A+B and B+A would hit the ball to the front and back of the court, respectively. This meant that I could mess with koopa by getting to the front, and then hit it to the back. This made us even. I started playing Bowser because he was power based, and could abuse the A and B hits much better. My friend believes that koopa cannot win vs Bowser, mainly because of the extremely tight reaction timings you need as koopa. You have to be spot on when bowser is serving, and when bowser isn't, it's a little less hard, but still difficult. I never lose to him. However, this summer I decided to pick koopa and he played bowser. The first 3 bo5s, I lost almost all times that bowser served, and mostly won when koopa was serving. Cool. He still cried out imbalance, stating it was wayy harder for koopa. I stated at the highest level of play I think they are atleast even, if not koopa favored if you are on an andrenaline high. He said that's stupid and bowsers op cuz its easier. We kept playing. By the end of the night, I won about 2/3 of the bo5's. He stated it was because he was making mistakes, not because the game was fair. Even when he tried, he only barely won. I would say, balanced.
TL;DR The analogy that koopa is harder to play as vs bowser than bowser vs koopa applies to the current zerg balance discussion. At the highest level, balance must not assume a neutered level of skill, it must assume the highest.
a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right?
In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again.
I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month)
IMHO there should be a change to counter the extreme creep spread. I dont have much issue with it, but the rate at which it receed is just ridiculous. One overlord being able to delay a base by ~ 1 minute? And always when I scan and try to clear some creep while pushing I just fail to actualy clear anything before the zerg engages me. Not even the ground where I currently siege :/ so some nerf to the creep spread is welcome, maybe not what I was hoping for but still something.
A creep nerf is needed, indeed. I was amazed when zergs complained that, when their hatches died, the larvae blocked their new hatch. Well, 1 overlord can drop creep and delay your expansion for more then a minute.
The queen patch made it that 2 base terran timings became not viable. No problem, said the terrans, we go for a fast third! This results in the fact that you can't attack the zerg before 12:00 and this results in a huge creep spread. But but but.... what about banshee hellion? This delays the creep indeed, but it also delays the next timing attack, since gas went into banshees, and not into grades and other important stuff. This gives the zerg again a chance to spread too much creep.
Creep makes it almost impossible for terrans to trade cost efficiënt, and we all know what happens when you start trading not cost efficiënt against zerg as terran...
A creep nerf is needed, indeed. I was amazed when zergs complained that, when their hatches died, the larvae blocked their new hatch. Well, 1 overlord can drop creep and delay your expansion for more then a minute.
Ah I see... there is no difference between an opponent blocking your hatch and a bug blocking your hatch... wow. Maybe there should be a bug which makes your "land" button disapear after you lifted your orbital. Guess that makes no difference to you.
EPT
smile or something.
