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MasterFischer
Denmark836 Posts
It's like, unless you are a macro and micro master, and want LONG games, you can go fuck urself.. because, 1 and 2base timings, allins and pressure, is NEGATED, everytime you meet a good zerg, no matter what.. because they know its coming, or they can just hold it and expo + creep and drone up.. Make HSM 50 % faster, but for every sec it doesnt hit, the dmg goes down a tick. What 1base and 2base timing and/or allins does Terran currently have to finish a game before it goes long game? | ||
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Rye.
United Kingdom88 Posts
On August 10 2012 18:53 MasterFischer wrote: Why is it okay for zerg to be FORCING Terran into greedy or macro oriented play? It's like, unless you are a macro and micro master, and want LONG games, you can go fuck urself.. because, 1 and 2base timings, allins and pressure, is NEGATED, everytime you meet a good zerg, no matter what.. because they know its coming, or they can just hold it and expo + creep and drone up.. Make HSM 50 % faster, but for every sec it doesnt hit, the dmg goes down a tick. What 1base and 2base timing and/or allins does Terran currently have to finish a game before it goes long game? blizzard would never have such a complex damage system. I've seen current ravens do massive damage. there is a reason bliz don't just make it cost less energy. it would be op. the root issue should be tackled, that is zerg not having better lower tier units. I say reduce roach ranged damage but make melee damage higher. ( currently ranged and melee are the same) maybe armor bonus when burrowed | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On August 10 2012 10:34 zmansman17 wrote: Yeah but Zergs didn't actually have to adapt and/or improve their play during any of these times. They were simply buffed. Yes and i think that is unfair. terran alwas has to micro just a little bit more, while the other races jsut get buffed. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
The Blizzard stance to adjust the tiniest thing possible should be good since we don't need to learn the game again and the outcome of the changes can be predicted much better. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 10 2012 18:53 MasterFischer wrote: Why is it okay for zerg to be FORCING Terran into greedy or macro oriented play? It's like, unless you are a macro and micro master, and want LONG games, you can go fuck urself.. because, 1 and 2base timings, allins and pressure, is NEGATED, everytime you meet a good zerg, no matter what.. because they know its coming, or they can just hold it and expo + creep and drone up.. Make HSM 50 % faster, but for every sec it doesnt hit, the dmg goes down a tick. What 1base and 2base timing and/or allins does Terran currently have to finish a game before it goes long game? There are a number of ways I could respond to this. However, the best way to do so was already done by the immortal Mr. Gekko. Behold below and understand that Greed is Good. Greed wins you games. Greed evolves you and your play. | ||
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Paskatykki
Finland6 Posts
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
Also I think there's something to the idea of making creep tumors not cancellable, but I can imagine there could be issues very early on in the game, where it might be too easy to delay creep spread for big 1 or 2 base timing pushes. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
1) make the auto turret get +1/2/3 damage from mech upgrades, its essentially usless in mid to lategame 2) HSM 100 energy paired with a damage nerf (its simply not fun to build a unit and not able to use on if its mainspells when it pops out) 3) lower raven upgrade costs (at least the absolutely underused ones like PDD and turret duration to 50/50 - could make zoning with PDD easier while not wasting energy, 150 150 for an energy upgrade is pretty damn too much aswell) 4) movementspeed (wohoo we got it finally) another pretty decent solution to the tvz early/midgame creep spread would be: make creep tumors "light" so that hellions/reapers can deal more effective with it | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On August 10 2012 13:11 zhurai wrote: a terran pro that doesn't think the game's balanced is considered a whiner, and one that only wants their race to win a zerg pro that used to complain that the game's inbalanced, and now it's balanced (since they are somewhat winning more) is considered right? I think this is a candid assessment of how Zergs see balance. At the end of the day, Zergs is still the easiest race (pros have said this) because they can telegraph their builds in a ZvT or PvZ and there's little the opposing player can do about it. With near perfect beginning scouting, where zergs don't necessarily need to even sac an overlord (those things are so fast), Zergs should even be doing better. This game will get balanced eventually, so if Zergs want to play that card, they are welcome to take ladder points that they really do not deserve. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On August 10 2012 13:21 Bippzy wrote: In hindsight, that interview being my source was not a very solid reason. I'll try again. I think the creep change is unnecessary because games do not show a trend of zerg increasing win rate, I buy into the idea that foreign terrans are slower to adapt and so point to the korean 50/50(I don't condone cutting out gumiho and taeja, imbalance should beat starpower), and because I feel their has not been sufficient time given for the development of gumiho style ghosts(which weren't really used for most of the month) You wrongly assume that "foreign terrans are slower to adapt" and this is the cause of their failure. There may, however, be many other reasons (either in isolation or together) why foreign Terrans are having trouble. The most obvious of which may be that it is very difficult to win TvZ at a high level because of the sheer amount of abilities and positioning you must control. For example, Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings. And don't forget ravens. Furthermore, this micro must be done many, many times whenever the Zerg engages you whether he is bluffing or going in for the attack. No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game. There are of course other possible reasons, which may lead to foreign Terrans having trouble but I feel that this one is the most compelling. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On August 10 2012 19:22 graNite wrote: Yes and i think that is unfair. terran alwas has to micro just a little bit more, while the other races jsut get buffed. People may well disagree with this point, but it lies very close to the truth. Whenever Zergs had "trouble" (Even though we can consult monthly win/loss ratios and find that Zergs were Always very close to 50% even during those "troubling" times), they complained and did not actually try to improve and adapt their play. As a result, they were buffed prematurely before they really had a chance to experiment and work through potential counters. And these buffs came very quickly, such that Zergs didn't need to adapt. Indeed, they actually just complained and got the attention of Blizzard. Now we have the unique situation where Zerg has been repeatedly buffed, Terran has been repeatedly nerfed and in the meantime, Zergs have actually learned to play their race better. These three factors combined made it very difficult for Terran to win. What should have happened is Zerg should have just learned to utilize their race before the buffs were made and then everything would be fine. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 10 2012 12:43 Plansix wrote: Yeah, because the bunker rush takes just as much skill to do as teching to BL/infestor and then switching into ultras. Next your going to tell us that 4 gating is hard to do. Dunno about Bunker rushing, but 4gating takes way more skill than making 6 Queens and defending all aggression with a fast third. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On August 10 2012 22:18 Kitaen wrote: good changes, this is the right way, but some additional minor tweaks to the raven would make it a worth using unit 1) make the auto turret get +1/2/3 damage from mech upgrades, its essentially usless in mid to lategame 2) HSM 100 energy paired with a damage nerf (its simply not fun to build a unit and not able to use on if its mainspells when it pops out) 3) lower raven upgrade costs (at least the absolutely underused ones like PDD and turret duration to 50/50 - could make zoning with PDD easier while not wasting energy, 150 150 for an energy upgrade is pretty damn too much aswell) 4) movementspeed (wohoo we got it finally) another pretty decent solution to the tvz early/midgame creep spread would be: make creep tumors "light" so that hellions/reapers can deal more effective with it Sorry, but I completely disagree. 1) Turrets don't need the damage buff, because their main problem is that they cannot be properly placed as they are huge and placed like a building. So if at the time the raven wants to cast a unit is there, you are screwed. Make turrets castable in a crowd (pushing units away like mini-forcefields) is all they need. 2) Energy isn't the main problem. Casting range is. Extend the range to 8 or 9. If that proves too much lower the acceleration. The longer the range, the more reaction time your opponent has to avoid dmg. 3) They could combine durable materials with building armor or with the corvid reactor or just remove it all-together and adjusting the duration stats. Raven has way too many upgrades already. 4) Movement speed was the last thing that was needed. It's nice to have, but ultimately not very important. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
[/Quote] I think this is a candid assessment of how Zergs see balance. At the end of the day, Zergs is still the easiest race (pros have said this) because they can telegraph their builds in a ZvT or PvZ and there's little the opposing player can do about it. With near perfect beginning scouting, where zergs don't necessarily need to even sac an overlord (those things are so fast), Zergs should even be doing better. This game will get balanced eventually, so if Zergs want to play that card, they are welcome to take ladder points that they really do not deserve. [/QUOTE] Are you serious? Why don't you qq some more? It's not like we don't scout you. If I see reactor helion, I can't do my "macro build" in zvt because I have to prepare for helions. If i see a 1 rax expand, YOU'RE PLAYING FOR MACRO GAME. So I do my macro build. I send in an overlord, to see if you're going for really greedy, 3 oc play, and then I be more greedy. I don't think you understand that I am REACTING to you and what I see. The same for pvz. They can tell me theyre doing a FFE which every protoss does and theres no way for me to stop it. Theyre playing greedy so I have to take three bases. Then I play more or less greedy depending on what I scout/how many gasses I see them take. I don't just go herp derp and hit a bunch of buttons on my keyboard. Learn to play and stop qqing. Btw, zerg takes more clicks to macro, it's been said since the game came out. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:00 Aurrora wrote: I think this is a candid assessment of how Zergs see balance. At the end of the day, Zergs is still the easiest race (pros have said this) because they can telegraph their builds in a ZvT or PvZ and there's little the opposing player can do about it. With near perfect beginning scouting, where zergs don't necessarily need to even sac an overlord (those things are so fast), Zergs should even be doing better. This game will get balanced eventually, so if Zergs want to play that card, they are welcome to take ladder points that they really do not deserve. [/QUOTE] Are you serious? Why don't you qq some more? It's not like we don't scout you. If I see reactor helion, I can't do my "macro build" in zvt because I have to prepare for helions. If i see a 1 rax expand, YOU'RE PLAYING FOR MACRO GAME. So I do my macro build. I send in an overlord, to see if you're going for really greedy, 3 oc play, and then I be more greedy. I don't think you understand that I am REACTING to you and what I see. The same for pvz. They can tell me theyre doing a FFE which every protoss does and theres no way for me to stop it. Theyre playing greedy so I have to take three bases. Then I play more or less greedy depending on what I scout/how many gasses I see them take. I don't just go herp derp and hit a bunch of buttons on my keyboard. Learn to play and stop qqing. Btw, zerg takes more clicks to macro, it's been said since the game came out. [/QUOTE] FFE is not greedy. What the hell? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:00 Aurrora wrote: Are you serious? Why don't you qq some more? It's not like we don't scout you. If I see reactor helion, I can't do my "macro build" in zvt because I have to prepare for helions. If i see a 1 rax expand, YOU'RE PLAYING FOR MACRO GAME. So I do my macro build. I send in an overlord, to see if you're going for really greedy, 3 oc play, and then I be more greedy. I don't think you understand that I am REACTING to you and what I see. The same for pvz. They can tell me theyre doing a FFE which every protoss does and theres no way for me to stop it. Theyre playing greedy so I have to take three bases. Then I play more or less greedy depending on what I scout/how many gasses I see them take. I don't just go herp derp and hit a bunch of buttons on my keyboard. Learn to play and stop qqing. Btw, zerg takes more clicks to macro, it's been said since the game came out. FFE is not greed at all, and lol @ the bold part. As if Reactor Hellion prevented a Zerg from playing a macro build... | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote: I think this is a candid assessment of how Zergs see balance. At the end of the day, Zergs is still the easiest race (pros have said this) because they can telegraph their builds in a ZvT or PvZ and there's little the opposing player can do about it. With near perfect beginning scouting, where zergs don't necessarily need to even sac an overlord (those things are so fast), Zergs should even be doing better. This game will get balanced eventually, so if Zergs want to play that card, they are welcome to take ladder points that they really do not deserve. Are you serious? Why don't you qq some more? It's not like we don't scout you. If I see reactor helion, I can't do my "macro build" in zvt because I have to prepare for helions. If i see a 1 rax expand, YOU'RE PLAYING FOR MACRO GAME. So I do my macro build. I send in an overlord, to see if you're going for really greedy, 3 oc play, and then I be more greedy. I don't think you understand that I am REACTING to you and what I see. The same for pvz. They can tell me theyre doing a FFE which every protoss does and theres no way for me to stop it. Theyre playing greedy so I have to take three bases. Then I play more or less greedy depending on what I scout/how many gasses I see them take. I don't just go herp derp and hit a bunch of buttons on my keyboard. Learn to play and stop qqing. Btw, zerg takes more clicks to macro, it's been said since the game came out. [/QUOTE] FFE is not greedy. What the hell? [/QUOTE] Trying to keep up with a protoss who goes for FFE, while on 2 base, isn't feasible. I won't have the larvae or the economy to do so. That is why zerg needs an earlier third base (also to be able to take one if the said protoss is going for stargate play). And my bad, maybe greedy wasn't the right word because toss can hold every all in while going FFE. Theyre going for macro game, why shouldn't zerg? If I scout the toss going 1 base, and the toss had pylon blocked my natural and I take my third, when i see there is no FFE, i cancel my third, wait til my lings comes out to kill the pylon and take gas. When I see them take their natural, then I take my third base. I don't see how zerg playing reactionary = greedy. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:10 Aurrora wrote: Trying to keep up with a protoss who goes for FFE, while on 2 base, isn't feasible. Who cares since the Protoss can't do anything about you going fast third anyway? | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:09 TheDwf wrote: FFE is not greed at all, and lol @ the bold part. As if Reactor Hellion prevented a Zerg from playing a macro build... I don't go for my fast 3 base. I stick on 2 base for much longer. I only make 2 defensive queens, I make a spine, and I make a zergling wall at the top of my ramp so they can't run by into my main. I get my gas earlier but with 2 geysers instead of 3. And it is the threat of helion run by that is making me make the precautions. There's no reason to invest in a third base if the terran is going for banshee, which is very common after reactor helion. Or mass helion can cancel the third also. So i take my third hatchery in my base. | ||
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Aurrora
43 Posts
On August 11 2012 01:13 TheDwf wrote: Who cares since the Protoss can't do anything about you going fast third anyway? Who cares since Zerg can't do anything about you going FFE anyway? My point is that many players think that zerg can do whatever they want, which is blatantly false. There is reasons for doing what we do. Also, you can do an all in. Or you can take a fast third also. There, you're doing something about it. | ||
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