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There so many thing wrong with your post, I cant believe people will waste their time reading it. If you are going to compare the 3 of them then do it justly.
AOE spells : EMP/ Fungal / Storm , how is one harder to use than another ??
Single target spells: Neural, Snipe, Feedback, they are so different its not even fair to compare them.
As far as speed goes zerg is the most mobile race and least effective in some cases, and infestors are freaking huge in size so blind people can spot them. Why did I waste my time writing this..
lol. you are pretty much shrugging off my facts and getting all mad, i explained exactly how 1 would be harder to use then the other 2. re read my post.
like i said, the time delays and radius, those are both 2 very huge factors. emp and storm both got their radius nerfed because they were a little too strong, so the very fact that the radius of anything is changed is probably a big indicator that radius is important. and i'm not even gonna explain the projectile thing, if you think about it you can figure it out.
i suppose the single target spells are different, but i am focusing more on the AOE spells.
ok cool, and you agree with me about the speed.
the infestors size is a double edged sword, big size = less infestors inside an EMP/STORM, but easier to snipe/feedback.
ok so where am i wrong again?
LOL regardless, i think the raven speed upgrade is gonna be a good thing. its gonna encourage terran to use ravens more often, and with more ravens being used, blizzard will be able to pinpoint any other problem with the raven, if there are any. its hard to say that the speed is not going to do anything because in live battle situations, every single theory can be thrown out the window, because of the number of variables (positioning, unit composition, terrain, etc.)
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Im liking the direction this is going from a balancing standpoint: a buff to terran would've been unthinkable a few months ago. However, I still think that the change to ravens wont have any impact on the game, at least in TvZ, since I dont see ravens being used more than they are now. Even in lategame situations where the terran has a huge gas bank, its generally better to use the minerals that you have on other units such as mmm or tanks rather than get 2-3 starports, 2-3 tech labs, hsm research, energy upgrade and finally the ravens themselves. This is already an investment of 700-1k minerals, depending on how many SP you get.
The creep spread nerf is also rather missing the point in my opinion. The fact that you can kill all the tumors in an area and the creep still stays there for a long amount of time is just wrong. This change doesnt solve the problem of what you can possibly do once creep spread is out of control. It doesnt matter if your 4th base is blocked by 12 minutes of 15 minutes if you cant get it there before 15 minutes without taking too many risks.
Finally, these changes arent doing anything to the underlying problem in TvZ: Terrans lategame. As it is right now, terran has a huge problem keeping up with zergs tech switches, zergs army (bl/infestor or infestor/ling/ultra->bl/infestor/ultra), and zergs expansions. It wont matter if you kill 2 or even 3 expansions if you lose your whole army and he can just camp all of your production facilities a minute later.
That being said, I feel that better changes have to be made. For example, reverting the snipe nerfs and giving terrans a way to spam it like infested terrans for zergs might be a way to help terrans TvZ lategame. I dont think that this would make the match unbalanced simply because ghosts are so expensive(200/100)! and only have energy for 8 snipes at max. Besides, most ghost wont even have full energy when they engage and once their energy gets depleted, they become a marine with more hp.
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On August 10 2012 07:15 westgun wrote:
Im liking the direction this is going from a balancing standpoint: a buff to terran would've been unthinkable a few months ago. However, I still think that the change to ravens wont have any impact on the game, at least in TvZ, since I dont see ravens being used more than they are now. Even in lategame situations where the terran has a huge gas bank, its generally better to use the minerals that you have on other units such as mmm or tanks rather than get 2-3 starports, 2-3 tech labs, hsm research, energy upgrade and finally the ravens themselves. This is already an investment of 700-1k minerals, depending on how many SP you get.
The creep spread nerf is also rather missing the point in my opinion. The fact that you can kill all the tumors in an area and the creep still stays there for a long amount of time is just wrong. This change doesnt solve the problem of what you can possibly do once creep spread is out of control. It doesnt matter if your 4th base is blocked by 12 minutes of 15 minutes if you cant get it there before 15 minutes without taking too many risks.
Finally, these changes arent doing anything to the underlying problem in TvZ: Terrans lategame. As it is right now, terran has a huge problem keeping up with zergs tech switches, zergs army (bl/infestor or infestor/ling/ultra->bl/infestor/ultra), and zergs expansions. It wont matter if you kill 2 or even 3 expansions if you lose your whole army and he can just camp all of your production facilities a minute later.
That being said, I feel that better changes have to be made. For example, reverting the snipe nerfs and giving terrans a way to spam it like infested terrans for zergs might be a way to help terrans TvZ lategame. I dont think that this would make the match unbalanced simply because ghosts are so expensive(200/100)! and only have energy for 8 snipes at max. Besides, most ghost wont even have full energy when they engage and once their energy gets depleted, they become a marine with more hp.
giving terrans the good snipe back just puts the zerg behind tremendously again. Sure it only happens at the heighest level but I still remember when Nestea's entire BL army was sniped in one second. I think you are more right on the fact that terran's cant keep up with a tech switch. Once their one army dies it takes forever to re-make it while either zerg or toss can almost insta-remax. To that I would add just one other observation -- terran is the only army that has to explicitly spread itself to avoid the powerful aoe weapons of both toss and zerg. In this way they are unlike the other two races AND have to fight the game's pathing ai.
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Snipe was never OP vs broodlords/infestor combination just a myth that came on this forum with players that watched 1 game and think they know stuff. It was infact the only unit that allowed terran to go toe to toe with this composition. The overall power of snipe vs all other zerg units was the real problem though making the ghost to all round. Also the mouse wheel scroll exploit probably urged blizzard to remove it from the game vs normal units. Not that I think its a bad thing bc its basicly an dumb ability in the way it was being used.
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seem like ok changes to me but maybe the creep thing a bit too powerful since it may have a compounding effect so it may have to be toned down a bit.
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On August 10 2012 07:23 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:15 westgun wrote:
Im liking the direction this is going from a balancing standpoint: a buff to terran would've been unthinkable a few months ago. However, I still think that the change to ravens wont have any impact on the game, at least in TvZ, since I dont see ravens being used more than they are now. Even in lategame situations where the terran has a huge gas bank, its generally better to use the minerals that you have on other units such as mmm or tanks rather than get 2-3 starports, 2-3 tech labs, hsm research, energy upgrade and finally the ravens themselves. This is already an investment of 700-1k minerals, depending on how many SP you get.
The creep spread nerf is also rather missing the point in my opinion. The fact that you can kill all the tumors in an area and the creep still stays there for a long amount of time is just wrong. This change doesnt solve the problem of what you can possibly do once creep spread is out of control. It doesnt matter if your 4th base is blocked by 12 minutes of 15 minutes if you cant get it there before 15 minutes without taking too many risks.
Finally, these changes arent doing anything to the underlying problem in TvZ: Terrans lategame. As it is right now, terran has a huge problem keeping up with zergs tech switches, zergs army (bl/infestor or infestor/ling/ultra->bl/infestor/ultra), and zergs expansions. It wont matter if you kill 2 or even 3 expansions if you lose your whole army and he can just camp all of your production facilities a minute later.
That being said, I feel that better changes have to be made. For example, reverting the snipe nerfs and giving terrans a way to spam it like infested terrans for zergs might be a way to help terrans TvZ lategame. I dont think that this would make the match unbalanced simply because ghosts are so expensive(200/100)! and only have energy for 8 snipes at max. Besides, most ghost wont even have full energy when they engage and once their energy gets depleted, they become a marine with more hp. giving terrans the good snipe back just puts the zerg behind tremendously again. Sure it only happens at the heighest level but I still remember when Nestea's entire BL army was sniped in one second. I think you are more right on the fact that terran's cant keep up with a tech switch. Once their one army dies it takes forever to re-make it while either zerg or toss can almost insta-remax. To that I would add just one other observation -- terran is the only army that has to explicitly spread itself to avoid the powerful aoe weapons of both toss and zerg. In this way they are unlike the other two races AND have to fight the game's pathing ai.
To be fair, Nestea's decision making was so bad for that engagement that players like Destiny were claiming he actively threw the game. As I recall he basically walked an army of pure Broodlord across the map into an army of mass Ghost/Viking. Not a game I'd make balance changes off ot
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Besides, why was Zerg never given opportunity to come up with a way to counter the ghost play like terran is given time every time a buff of the other races happens?
Here are a few counters to ghosts: zerglings, banelings, hydras, roaches, nydus play, overlord drops, infested terrans...
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Besides do you any idea how much that mass ghost army cost to build? As long as zerg isn't passive terran wouldn't get a chance to create a super army of ghosts.
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Terrans do need snipe back. Look at each race's "go-to" end game units.
Zerg- Infestors.
Protoss - Collosus
Terran - ...Marines?
Snipe maybe doesnt need to kill brood lords in 4 hits, but Terran needs something to hold off the Ultralisks while barracks slowly make marauders.
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Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/
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I'd like to point out that just because Terran finds a way to compete doesn't mean another option needed to be nerfed. For example, I think that PvZ right now is a terrible matchup, but it's not necessarily because any race has a particular advantage. It's because a lot of Protoss timings and builds and strategies have been nerfed into oblivion. Yes, we've found other ways to play, but we've also lost a lot of options. Using the winrates post-patch to tell you whether something is a good change is wrongheaded, because it's entirely possible that there are many good play styles. And there should be. This idea that we get to nerf anything out of use because it's the weapon of choice for players is dumb. There should be dynamism in every matchup. Hell, are we going to nerf Stargate in PvP just because it's a good opener and because there are lots of other options? Hell no.
Meanwhile, PvZ having horrible Stargate openers has been rationalized on the grounds that Protoss has another decent way of playing. Sure, but that doesn't mean Stargate being completely useless 99% of the time is a good thing. Similarly, why is having Hellion openers completely nonviable good for the game, even if there are other things Terrans can do? I would point out some examples of Zerg units being nerfed too hard, but I honestly can't think of any. I feel like the other races have had to do far more innovating because of patches (Zerg's innovation had more to do with the fact that the game was absurdly imbalanced at release, and they were underpowered) since their strategies keep getting nerfed.
But the real problem is that Blizzard is no longer nerfing things because they're balanced or imbalanced. They're nerfing them because people are using them too much. The fuck kinda rationale is that? Either make it so that every race has a dynamic opening that can transition into anything (a la Stephano style) or start buffing stuff to make other options viable. Until an opener starts winning every single game (1-1-1, old 4gate, etc. etc.) there's really no reason to just erase it on the grounds that it's common. By that logic, Protoss players are going to see a nerf to Immortal/Sentry builds and Zergs are gonna see a nerf to Roach styles.
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On August 10 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote:
Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/
hmm that'll be interesting o..o
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On August 10 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote:
Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/
How would that be much different than the new mines in HotS? The idea is good, but from what Im seeing is that unless you put the HSM on a zergling, its gonna hit anyways, so the change wouldnt have any impact whatsoever in my opinion.
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On August 10 2012 07:57 westgun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:44 mcmartini wrote:
Make HSM always hit. Accelerates after 15 games seconds. This way it encourages more micro from the players and I think the raven will be interesting. Making it possible to just run away from it is boring :/ How would that be much different than the new mines in HotS? The idea is good, but from what Im seeing is that unless you put the HSM on a zergling, its gonna hit anyways, so the change wouldnt have any impact whatsoever in my opinion.
I'm thinking of it for more than just against Zerg not to mention the fact that those mines are stationary and must burrow whereas the raven is a flying spell caster.
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On August 10 2012 07:23 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:15 westgun wrote:
That being said, I feel that better changes have to be made. For example, reverting the snipe nerfs and giving terrans a way to spam it like infested terrans for zergs might be a way to help terrans TvZ lategame. I dont think that this would make the match unbalanced simply because ghosts are so expensive(200/100)! and only have energy for 8 snipes at max. Besides, most ghost wont even have full energy when they engage and once their energy gets depleted, they become a marine with more hp. giving terrans the good snipe back just puts the zerg behind tremendously again. Sure it only happens at the heighest level but I still remember when Nestea's entire BL army was sniped in one second. I think you are more right on the fact that terran's cant keep up with a tech switch. Once their one army dies it takes forever to re-make it while either zerg or toss can almost insta-remax. To that I would add just one other observation -- terran is the only army that has to explicitly spread itself to avoid the powerful aoe weapons of both toss and zerg. In this way they are unlike the other two races AND have to fight the game's pathing ai. yeah but current maps allow zerg to realistically acquire 5 bases and lots of drones
so you snipe an entire brood lord army, that's great, two more to go
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On August 10 2012 05:37 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. This is the point that always gives me a chuckle. Many, many zergs love to say "Why don't Terrans use the Raven. It's so good. If Terrans only knew how to play and use their units." Not sure how else to make the point that Terrans indeed do use the Raven and use the full extent of their army in TvT, the most even MU; and in my opinion, the MU most based on skill and small gains in position and tactics. Terrans DO use the Raven. When will the aforementioned Zergs understand that the Raven just sucks in TvZ or we would indeed use it more often?
This is sadly true, there's a lot of units that seem to be only viable in TvT. TvT is the only matchup where I feel safe or confident using a Reaper Expand. Simlarly BC transitions in TvT are often used to break stalemates. Yet for some reason people think we don't use the full extent of the Terran arsenal. It's just that these units (including the Raven) are very hard to use in other match ups.
On August 10 2012 07:23 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:15 westgun wrote:
Im liking the direction this is going from a balancing standpoint: a buff to terran would've been unthinkable a few months ago. However, I still think that the change to ravens wont have any impact on the game, at least in TvZ, since I dont see ravens being used more than they are now. Even in lategame situations where the terran has a huge gas bank, its generally better to use the minerals that you have on other units such as mmm or tanks rather than get 2-3 starports, 2-3 tech labs, hsm research, energy upgrade and finally the ravens themselves. This is already an investment of 700-1k minerals, depending on how many SP you get.
The creep spread nerf is also rather missing the point in my opinion. The fact that you can kill all the tumors in an area and the creep still stays there for a long amount of time is just wrong. This change doesnt solve the problem of what you can possibly do once creep spread is out of control. It doesnt matter if your 4th base is blocked by 12 minutes of 15 minutes if you cant get it there before 15 minutes without taking too many risks.
Finally, these changes arent doing anything to the underlying problem in TvZ: Terrans lategame. As it is right now, terran has a huge problem keeping up with zergs tech switches, zergs army (bl/infestor or infestor/ling/ultra->bl/infestor/ultra), and zergs expansions. It wont matter if you kill 2 or even 3 expansions if you lose your whole army and he can just camp all of your production facilities a minute later.
That being said, I feel that better changes have to be made. For example, reverting the snipe nerfs and giving terrans a way to spam it like infested terrans for zergs might be a way to help terrans TvZ lategame. I dont think that this would make the match unbalanced simply because ghosts are so expensive(200/100)! and only have energy for 8 snipes at max. Besides, most ghost wont even have full energy when they engage and once their energy gets depleted, they become a marine with more hp. giving terrans the good snipe back just puts the zerg behind tremendously again. Sure it only happens at the heighest level but I still remember when Nestea's entire BL army was sniped in one second. I think you are more right on the fact that terran's cant keep up with a tech switch. Once their one army dies it takes forever to re-make it while either zerg or toss can almost insta-remax. To that I would add just one other observation -- terran is the only army that has to explicitly spread itself to avoid the powerful aoe weapons of both toss and zerg. In this way they are unlike the other two races AND have to fight the game's pathing ai.
People really have to stop quoting that game. When you A-Move a bunch of BroodLords into Viking-Ghosts without support, they deserve to be wrecked. Even pros make misjudgments.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 10 2012 07:44 BanditX wrote:
Terrans do need snipe back. Look at each race's "go-to" end game units.
Zerg- Infestors.
Protoss - Collosus
Terran - ...Marines?
Snipe maybe doesnt need to kill brood lords in 4 hits, but Terran needs something to hold off the Ultralisks while barracks slowly make marauders.
Maybe it's just because I mech in every matchup, but much like in BW tanks absolutely demolish ultras if you have a very good amount and a nice position (use buildings to create chokes and stuff)
I'd also like to point out that as a meching player I've found use for the raven in all my matchups. It's really good for PDD against Corrupters and HSM is useful against viking/broodlord clumps. In TvP I use it exclusively if the opponent has a lot of stalkers as it negates him blinking onto my mech army.
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These are the only types of changes I'd like to see from now on.
Teeny tiny nerfs/buffs is all you need.
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On August 09 2012 09:29 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 09:28 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
They weren't trying to make it easier to spread creep so much as give zerg a better way to fight back against hellions and maybe hellion-related allins. Yes, making roaches was beyond the grasp of zerg players!
I don't think you quite get the point of the patch. The patch, at least from what I recall, was more to change things than to balance things.
At the time, balance was perfect, but the way it was perfect was wrong, at least in Blizzard's eyes. The belief was that Zerg's scouting was weak (which it was) and that Zerg was too susceptible to allins (which it was). Although going solely by the numbers, balance was perfect, it was only by the numbers that balance was perfect. Blizzard did the patch to shake up the metagame, so that when the dust settled again, it would be a better matchup, kind of like what HotS is supposed to be.
We could reach perfect balance in WoL just fine, if we wanted to, but HotS will hopefully allow us to reach perfect balance AND have a better game to boot.
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Im only platinum but here's my view on the state of TvZ. The problem with the matchup right now its that its too hard for Terran to transition, Imagine an army with broodlord tech, the terran will obviously want to pop out as many vikings as he can. But then comes the ''relatively easy'' tech switch to ultras, leaving Terran with 20 vikings of dead supply. I think the ghost reverse would also bring problems back (it feels hard to say this as I am also desperate when it comes to TvZ, but just being honest) cause the ghost is able to counter both the broodlord tech and ultra tech. It just feels like the game is at a state where too many things would have to change in order to be perfectly balanced (not saying it isnt, after all im just a plat scrub), and I doubt the speed buffs for the Raven will change much, cause they still are very expensive, take a long time to build and require 3 upgrades to become fully operational. I dont know.. we'll see
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EPT
