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On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea.
This is the point that always gives me a chuckle.
Many, many zergs love to say "Why don't Terrans use the Raven. It's so good. If Terrans only knew how to play and use their units."
Not sure how else to make the point that Terrans indeed do use the Raven and use the full extent of their army in TvT, the most even MU; and in my opinion, the MU most based on skill and small gains in position and tactics.
Terrans DO use the Raven.
When will the aforementioned Zergs understand that the Raven just sucks in TvZ or we would indeed use it more often?
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
They need to make auto turrets scale with factory upgrades, those things become useless lategame, the only time there is enough ravens for it to be even vaguely useful.
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Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s
The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.
To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread...
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On August 10 2012 05:29 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 03:43 Zrana wrote:On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.
In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.
On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.
I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. Infestors are hardly the easiest to micro. Ghosts and HTs are waaaaaaaay easier. Also I don't know why you're complaining that HSM is cost-inefficient. That's how the game works. As you go up the tech tree units generally get more costly and more efficient (powerful) but less cost-efficient than lower tier units. Compare a marine to a broodlord for example. And as you can get potentially infinite HSMs from a raven it's not actually that cost-inefficient? There's so much random stating of facts in this thread to make it seem like zerg is OP. Overlords can drop creep to block potential expansion? omg so OP! That's like saying "omg terran can turn command centres into planetary fortresses! so op!". The races just work in different ways. Actually as someone who plays all 3 races, I must say Infestors are by far the easiest spell caster to micro.
As another I'll second that, infestors are easier than HT's and much easier than ghosts. Bloody good vs everything too.
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Meh, the speed is not what is limiting the Raven. Nice creep changes though. I remember when halfmap creepspread in less then 12 minutes was impressive, now any master zerg can do it.
Also anyone who argues for the infestor being harder to use over HT/Ghosts is clueless.
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I feel like creep should recede faster as well, maybe 30-45 seconds rather than the full minute?
and how are infestors the hardest? EMP is a projectile and snipe/feedback require selecting specific units.
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Raven speed won't help the tvz matchup at all. People only make ravens once they've won the game and then end up losing. Creep spread decrease is good. The main problem in tvz is zerg can just start making units whenever they want and if you're caught with your pants down, you die.
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On August 10 2012 05:37 MCDayC wrote:
They need to make auto turrets scale with factory upgrades, those things become useless lategame, the only time there is enough ravens for it to be even vaguely useful.
This isn't exactly true. Vs 3-3 units, 1 full energy+upgraded raven/4 autoturrets will beat every unit in the game for supply except for full energy infestors/infested terrans.
Of course, the opponent can always run away from the turrets and make them effectively useless. That can also be said for infested terrans as well.
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On August 10 2012 05:27 MasterFischer wrote:Here's a novel idea... Remove the HSM ability, and give ravens the old science vessel ability, IRRADIATE ! PROBLEM ZERGS? ;-D Would effectively make 1-a zerg shit in dey pants, because they now have to micro abit, instead of a-moving their muta, infestor, bling, ling army to kill you ^^ coupled with a raven speed increase... something like irradiate would be WONDERFUL 
sorta out of topic but
since you mentioned this, why not make the " Spider Mine" on HOTS similar to that.
no ten seconds delay,as soon as it attaches to a unit, it'll start damaging (like electric damage instead of gaseous irradiate) a X amount and around that unit in a X amount of time. tadaaa
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On August 09 2012 08:35 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:32 blawed wrote:On August 09 2012 08:28 Shiori wrote:On August 09 2012 08:23 Ziggitz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:58 starception wrote:On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice! When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs. No, you are wrong. Terran players have just been the better players. This is why you guys aren't being taken seriously. I don't think it's so much that Terran players were better as it was that there were actually just a lot more really top Terran players. Same with now. There are Zergs who do really well (DRG, Symbol, pre-slump Nestea) but the rest of the playing field seems to drop off after the top. It's not so much a balance thing either. I mean, Terran was definitely OP for awhile after release, but there were also a tonne of super good T players that are still pretty damn good today. Zergs really didn't (and still don't) have that depth of talent. Protoss didn't have it until around 6 months ago. Today, I'd say most of the top players are Terran, followed by Toss, followed by Zerg. well first of all that is a very narrow and skeptical way of viewing this topic. You are wrong sir. Where is your evidence to support such an idiotic statement? I can list like 10+ Code S Terrans that I would say are and have pretty much always been mechanically stunning players. I can name about 5 Zergs, a few of whom weren't even good in 2011. Like, think back to when Nestea was the best Zerg player. Who else was there? Seriously. Who else was there? Then DRG came. Then Leenock for a brief moment. Then Symbol for a little. Seriously, that's like a who's who of post-Fruitdealer Zergs.
And on the flip side I could name more "good" foreigner Zergs than foreigner T's. Could that mean... One race is harder to play?
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On August 10 2012 05:50 guN-viCe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 05:37 MCDayC wrote:
They need to make auto turrets scale with factory upgrades, those things become useless lategame, the only time there is enough ravens for it to be even vaguely useful. This isn't exactly true. Vs 3-3 units, 1 full energy+upgraded raven/4 autoturrets will beat every unit in the game for supply except for full energy infestors/infested terrans. Of course, the opponent can always run away from the turrets and make them effectively useless. That can also be said for infested terrans as well.
The auto turret makes up for the amount of damage it does with the length it is on the field for, 180 second or 240 with the upgrade. Unlike infested terrans, you cannot just wait for the turret to die, unless you are willing to wait 3 minutes blizzard time. It also has pretty solid armor and 150 hp for zero supply unit. Throwing on behind a mineral line forces a zerg to send units over to kill it and depending on where it is placed, it could chew through quite a few zerglings, especially if they are on attack move.
Also, during this harass, the raven can just leave and live to fight another day, unlike a medivac which hangs around to pick up the marines. Used in conjunction with a good push on a separate base or a drop, it could be very useful for the terran who takes the time to develop their multi tasking.
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On August 10 2012 05:41 Hypemeup wrote:
Also anyone who argues for the infestor being harder to use over HT/Ghosts is clueless.
the facts to back up this statement.
EMP/STORM are projectile/time delayed spells, so they require proper timing and aim to hit.
FEEDBACK/SHIPE straight up requires you to click on individual units.
FUNGAL GROWTH, however, requires neither of those, it is instant,
not to mention that the radius of FUNGAL GROWTH(2) is greater than both EMP(1.5) and PSI STORM(1.5)
Infestors are also as fast as ghosts(2.25) and way faster than high templars(1.88),
on creep they are way faster then both, 2.92. lol thats faster than banshees!
i LOL so hard every time somebody cries about how infestors are hard to use, because most people know all of these things and still spit out that nonsensical statement.
they are way easier to use, and good against everything.
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On August 10 2012 05:38 Cereb wrote:
Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s
The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.
To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread...
I second this notion. Some people will never be pleased.
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Sounds reasonable. More ravens is a plus for everybody.
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On August 10 2012 05:37 MCDayC wrote:
They need to make auto turrets scale with factory upgrades, those things become useless lategame, the only time there is enough ravens for it to be even vaguely useful.
This is a very good point. The raven is a defensive unit with pdd, auto t, and some so and so anti clumped air with HSM. But by late game, the turrets are worthless, way to low dmg for the energy. It's almost a waste of APM to deploy those things in a big battle lol.
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nvm 
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On August 10 2012 06:30 Ryps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 06:19 urbaNo wrote:On August 10 2012 05:41 Hypemeup wrote:
Also anyone who argues for the infestor being harder to use over HT/Ghosts is clueless. the facts to back up this statement. EMP/STORM are projectile/time delayed spells, so they require proper timing and aim to hit. FEEDBACK/SHIPE straight up requires you to click on individual units. FUNGAL GROWTH, however, requires neither of those, it is instant, not to mention that the radius of FUNGAL GROWTH(2) is greater than both EMP(1.5) and PSI STORM(1.5) Infestors are also as fast as ghosts(2.25) and way faster than high templars(1.88), on creep they are way faster then both, 2.92. lol thats faster than banshees! i LOL so hard every time somebody cries about how infestors are hard to use, because most people know all of these things and still spit out that nonsensical statement. they are way easier to use, and good against everything. There so many thing wrong with your post, I cant believe people will waste their time reading it. If you are going to compare the 3 of them then do it justly. AOE spells : EMP/ Fungal / Storm , how is one harder to use than another ?? Single target spells: Neural, Snipe, Feedback, they are so different its not even fair to compare them. As far as speed goes zerg is the most mobile race and least effective in some cases, and infestors are freaking huge in size so blind people can spot them. Why did I waste my time writing this..
Objectively speaking, he made a better post than you did.
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On August 10 2012 05:58 kckkryptonite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 08:35 Shiori wrote:On August 09 2012 08:32 blawed wrote:On August 09 2012 08:28 Shiori wrote:On August 09 2012 08:23 Ziggitz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:58 starception wrote:On August 09 2012 07:46 jdsowa wrote:On August 09 2012 07:43 gfever wrote:
is there truely a terran buff?? took em a year and half for a terran buff, rejoice! When your race is favored for a year and a half, you don't need buffs. No, you are wrong. Terran players have just been the better players. This is why you guys aren't being taken seriously. I don't think it's so much that Terran players were better as it was that there were actually just a lot more really top Terran players. Same with now. There are Zergs who do really well (DRG, Symbol, pre-slump Nestea) but the rest of the playing field seems to drop off after the top. It's not so much a balance thing either. I mean, Terran was definitely OP for awhile after release, but there were also a tonne of super good T players that are still pretty damn good today. Zergs really didn't (and still don't) have that depth of talent. Protoss didn't have it until around 6 months ago. Today, I'd say most of the top players are Terran, followed by Toss, followed by Zerg. well first of all that is a very narrow and skeptical way of viewing this topic. You are wrong sir. Where is your evidence to support such an idiotic statement? I can list like 10+ Code S Terrans that I would say are and have pretty much always been mechanically stunning players. I can name about 5 Zergs, a few of whom weren't even good in 2011. Like, think back to when Nestea was the best Zerg player. Who else was there? Seriously. Who else was there? Then DRG came. Then Leenock for a brief moment. Then Symbol for a little. Seriously, that's like a who's who of post-Fruitdealer Zergs. And on the flip side I could name more "good" foreigner Zergs than foreigner T's. Could that mean... One race is harder to play?
It actually further supports his argument, since foreigners aren't as good as koreans but the zerg race allows them to still shine through. If you take a look at the EU GM top16 atm, it's 2 terrans - one of them being forgg. On the other hand there are many "good" up and coming players everyone seems so excited about. JohnnyRecco, Illusion, BabyKnight, Slivko.. the list goes on if you take other top GM players into account. What do they all have in common? They don't play terran. There is no up and coming terran player. There never has been, all the terrans we see have been around for 12months+. I don't think it's a coincidence, the truth of the matter is that many players, especially the up and coming ones, get carried by their race.
I suggest you take a look at this to get an idea of what I'm talking about:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
don't be afraid to go back a few pages.
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On August 10 2012 06:21 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 05:38 Cereb wrote:
Omg I tried reading 10 pages of this thread but some people are just soo whiny it's driving me crazy :s
The changes are great! Really smart thinking by Blizzard and the game is almost perfectly balanced. Just chill the eff out.
To be fair though, it seems to be the same dudes who cry balance all over this otherwise nice thread... I second this notion. Some people will never be pleased.
so basically you guys.... are whining that people are whining?
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EPT
