|
On August 10 2012 04:37 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:27 flyingteapot wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but
With this speed buff in the Raven it isn't about the Raven being able to deal damage to the Zerg army directly but Terran being able to deal with the creep spread of Zerg making the army easier to deal with. Since the Raven now moves at the same speed as the Medivac it can keep up with the rest of the Terran army making the Terran army able to clear creep easier instead of having to wait for the Raven to catch up. So instead of the Terran player having to waste scans on clearing creep, because Raven are detectors, they can use the scans to locate the Zerg army and position themselves favorably allowing for better engagements. So instead of the Raven buff creating a situation where Ravens do massive damage to the Zerg army directly; it creates a situation where the Raven can help the Terran army deal more damage to the Zerg army by setting up favorable engagements
So the Raven is essentially a tier 3 overlord with massive costs that can also detect hidden? Yeah... that's nice. Raven has 3 offensive abilities, i think the game could use some fresh breath of air for using those.. dont u think? I dont think the raven will be used more just becasue its faster now
not to mention the range of the abilities
On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now?
Look at the ranges.
On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle.
I wouldn't even say that autoturrets are too useful in endgame because they don't scale at all
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,,
Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier.
How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea.
|
On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea.
For what it's worth, Stargate tech needs a buff almost as badly as the Raven does.
|
On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea.
Well the raven being used in TvT doesn't really count... seeing as its a mirro match.... so if its gets buffed.. both sides get the equal same... so yea.... Tvt doesnt count.. im talking more about TvP and TvZ...
could u direct me to some top gm or pro replays where ravens are used as standard composition in the mix or used effectively?
|
On August 10 2012 04:55 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. Well the raven being used in TvT doesn't really count... seeing as its a mirro match.... so if its gets buffed.. both sides get the equal same... so yea.... Tvt doesnt count.. im talking more about TvP and TvZ... could u direct me to some top gm or pro replays where ravens are used as standard composition in the mix or used effectively?
only ones would be maps that you can split effectively with PF's.... like metropolis imo that you can safely go to this composition
|
Nice to see the Ravens getting a buff, and the creep change is a good idea too Now get back to fixing patch 1.5 Blizzard!
|
The post quality in this thread has deteriorated to a point where I can't read it anymore T.T
So I will say two things:
1: Good to see blizzard addressing balance in a way that doesn't change the game too dramatically, I really enjoy most of the TvZ matchup right now.
2: Discussion in the raven has turned into either a balance whine about how zerg can 1-a move and win or that ravens are useless still. While the latter is slightly more productive(but still completely meaningless), they add nothing to the discussion.
|
It would be exciting to see ravens being viable in Tvp. Toss will have to split just as Terran dodge storms. Of course, this is not viable at all due to feedback.
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 10 2012 04:55 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. Well the raven being used in TvT doesn't really count... seeing as its a mirro match.... so if its gets buffed.. both sides get the equal same... so yea.... Tvt doesnt count.. im talking more about TvP and TvZ... could u direct me to some top gm or pro replays where ravens are used as standard composition in the mix or used effectively?
Lots of GSL games lately, any large map where it gets to the point where the terran gets the gas income to make continuous ravens out of a few stargates.
|
On August 10 2012 02:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:40 Torra wrote:On August 10 2012 02:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 10 2012 02:24 Cylindrical wrote:On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ? How to harass Zerg with a Raven... One HSM... Thats it. One corrupter can kill a raven, a raven cant kill the corrupter. Because you are going to harass with ONE Raven? No, you are going to harass with few of them at least, and you will make tons of turrets with them, one HSM won't do anything except if he has all of the Drons at one mineral patch... A few ravens in the mid game is a big investment, and delays all upgrades and production. IMO that's probably not worth it. I think drops would still be more effective. Not to mention the fact that they'd most certainly hit after mutas/infestors are out, so it'd be a one way trip for all that gas.
Well, if you arrive first, put down 2 turrets and leave immediately you have a good chance vs infestors. At least a lot better than unloading your Marines and getting 2 fungals.
If he goes mutas you just don't do it, easy. It's not a strategy for every situation.
|
United States7483 Posts
On August 10 2012 04:55 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. Well the raven being used in TvT doesn't really count... seeing as its a mirro match.... so if its gets buffed.. both sides get the equal same... so yea.... Tvt doesnt count.. im talking more about TvP and TvZ... could u direct me to some top gm or pro replays where ravens are used as standard composition in the mix or used effectively?
Sure it counts, it's a matchup where PDD is exceptionally good, and nobody likes to make ghosts in that matchup anymore now that TLO plays zerg. It's like how the mothership only ever shows up in PvZ (and very rarely a late game PvP), it only has function in one matchup right now. There are units with no function in any matchup for the most part, like the carrier.
|
On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier.
How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea.
I think one of the main reasons no one uses void rays vs Terran is that terran has no real tech options to be vulnerable to them, Terran normally go MMM every game. Protoss needs to get their AOE from Collosus or High templar to deal with rines or die.
If terran would have options to go mech vs protoss (remove energy from thor), or maybe air, give BC back +2 damage, the game would open up some. If this made the race match ups harder, buff the other races then, but by God, it is bad game design to not allow multiple tech paths.
Edit: If I was to balance the game, I'd address Zerg's +40 supply mid game vs pros. Make zealots have -8 s build time, and rines -5s build time, and see if T&P can pressure zerg early again like when the game was balanced a few patches back.
|
It's annoying to try to get creep tumors up and down ramps as it is, and while relatively minor, it's still irritating to deal with... I wonder if the shorter range will make that worse or better.
|
Dunno if it's been suggested yet but reducing the damage to 60 and like 40 splash and make the HSM a 75 energy spell would be pretty cool... Just saying..
Edit 1: Maybe too strong against banes but what about nerfing the radius too?
Edit: 2 Would make them useful faster and be a threat without instadying to feedback.. Not solving the fungal problem but I mean if it doesn't oneshot a lot of shit maybe a bit more range might work too.
|
On August 10 2012 05:12 GoodNewsJim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier.
How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. I think one of the main reasons no one uses void rays vs Terran is that terran has no real tech options to be vulnerable to them, Terran normally go MMM every game. Protoss needs to get their AOE from Collosus or High templar to deal with rines or die. If terran would have options to go mech vs protoss (remove energy from thor), or maybe air, give BC back +2 damage, the game would open up some. If this made the race match ups harder, buff the other races then, but by God, it is bad game design to not allow multiple tech paths.
Couldn't agree more.... Starcraft 2, 2 years down the road is STILL lacking from severe gamedesign flaws...
How many CHOICES do each race really have as to teching etc?
Having a unit like the raven being heavily underused and heavily cost inefficient just screams to high heavens of bad design... I think they seriously need to rethink the raven, the abilitoes redesign, or something new entirely... maybe for HOTS.. I dont know.
|
On August 10 2012 04:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:39 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate. But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc.. But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,, Raven is a standard TvT unit, it's used as much as, if not more than, the mothership, and certainly more than the carrier. How often do you see void rays outside of the occasional SG opener in PvZ? Let's not act like it's hardly ever used, it's used quite frequently in late game TvZ now in Korea. BC's are a standard TvT end game unit. They are used as much as, if not more than, Carriers and Voidrays in PvP. (rough guess)
The Reaper/Hellion/Medivac all-in is a build that is used as much as, if not more than, 1-base DT's in PvP or 10pool in ZvZ. ( rough guess)
See what I'm getting at? Virtually anything and everything is viable at some point in some strategy in a mirror matchup, while it may not be viable in non-mirrors.
|
Here's a novel idea...
Remove the HSM ability, and give ravens the old science vessel ability, IRRADIATE !
PROBLEM ZERGS? ;-D
Would effectively make 1-a zerg shit in dey pants, because they now have to micro abit, instead of a-moving their muta, infestor, bling, ling army to kill you ^^
coupled with a raven speed increase... something like irradiate would be WONDERFUL 
|
On August 10 2012 03:43 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.
In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.
On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.
I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. Infestors are hardly the easiest to micro. Ghosts and HTs are waaaaaaaay easier. Also I don't know why you're complaining that HSM is cost-inefficient. That's how the game works. As you go up the tech tree units generally get more costly and more efficient (powerful) but less cost-efficient than lower tier units. Compare a marine to a broodlord for example. And as you can get potentially infinite HSMs from a raven it's not actually that cost-inefficient? There's so much random stating of facts in this thread to make it seem like zerg is OP. Overlords can drop creep to block potential expansion? omg so OP! That's like saying "omg terran can turn command centres into planetary fortresses! so op!". The races just work in different ways.
Actually as someone who plays all 3 races, I must say Infestors are by far the easiest spell caster to micro.
|
On August 10 2012 05:27 MasterFischer wrote:Here's a novel idea... Remove the HSM ability, and give ravens the old science vessel ability, IRRADIATE ! PROBLEM ZERGS? ;-D Would effectively make 1-a zerg shit in dey pants, because they now have to micro abit, instead of a-moving their muta, infestor, bling, ling army to kill you ^^ coupled with a raven speed increase... something like irradiate would be WONDERFUL
I'd love to have irradiate back
|
Auto turrets will beat any unit in the game for supply(all upgrades researched/full energy for raven+opponent), except infestors/infested terrans(and maybe banelings, I forget).
Ravens with HSM beat almost every unit in the game for supply except for the high HP units like ultra/bc/carrier/archon(auto turret will kill them though).
Massing ravens late game is a potential viable strategy if we have the resources.
The problem with ravens is:
a) high cost
b) they are weak unless they have full energy
c) easy to damage our own army if HSM is applied to fast moving melee targets likes zerglings/speedlots
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
