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Kraidio
China133 Posts
The Raven was noticeably quicker, but I don't know how effective 6 hellions + 1 turret is compared to the usual two cloak banshees. I found that I was able to leave the turret shooting at the queens while moving the hellions around which was kind of nifty! That said, it was only one game and I can't speak to the overall effectiveness. | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:27 Ramiz1989 wrote: Because you are going to harass with ONE Raven? No, you are going to harass with few of them at least, and you will make tons of turrets with them, one HSM won't do anything except if he has all of the Drons at one mineral patch... A few ravens in the mid game is a big investment, and delays all upgrades and production. IMO that's probably not worth it. I think drops would still be more effective. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:40 Torra wrote: A few ravens in the mid game is a big investment, and delays all upgrades and production. IMO that's probably not worth it. I think drops would still be more effective. Not to mention the fact that they'd most certainly hit after mutas/infestors are out, so it'd be a one way trip for all that gas. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote: That would be the worst idea ever.IMO, progamer Terrans should be advising blizzard, yes, they have the main issues that need solving on the radar, but a range buff/energy tweak to HSM is what is needed to make ravens pay themselves off, not a speed buff that literally changes nothing vs fungal growth which is the core issue. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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ProfSc
United States51 Posts
In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors. On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game. I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:39 Nimic wrote: He just mentioned about 5 different micro tasks that you have to do simultaneously during an engagement, and your counter argument is that using blink is hard? Well you don’t need to just blink. You also need to use guardian shield if it is available, warp in more stalkers and get them into the battle, focus down the wounded stalkers, be alert for the rogue zealot warp in and keep up with any other part of your build that you are doing. I am pretty bad at most of those things, but I keep working at it. Very little of this game is about doing one thing. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote: The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement. In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors. On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game. I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. Honestly, the problem with Fungal is the root. They should just change it so that the root component of FG is only 2 seconds while the damage component is still over 4 seconds. That way in a full blown battle FG still has the same damage capability. But if you want to lock down a bunch of retreating units or a clump of air units with the root, it costs much more energy to do so. | ||
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ProfSc
United States51 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote: Well you don’t need to just blink. You also need to use guardian shield if it is available, warp in more stalkers and get them into the battle, focus down the wounded stalkers, be alert for the rogue zealot warp in and keep up with any other part of your build that you are doing. I am pretty bad at most of those things, but I keep working at it. Very little of this game is about doing one thing. So, to take things in balanced view (and I mean this seriously in terms of apm control, etc). Protoss Micro - Terran Micro 1. Blink (happens throughout engagement) = Splitting (much more important earlier on but you may also need to kite) 2. Guardian Shield (one-time use) = Stim (one-time use unless the battle is prolonged) 3. Rogue zealot warp in (response will be to micro stalkers back) = Infestors/Blings (response will be continual splitting or focus-firing) 4. Focus fire weakened stalkers = Focus firing ultras with marauders/BLs with vikings/Infestors with marauders/ghosts/siege tanks Verdict: Incommensurate. Your analogy focuses on an early/mid-game PvP engagement, not a late game 200/200 army engage in TvZ. I think you should pick a point in the game that has more things going on for better comparison, unless you're microing a 200/200 blink stalker army in late-game PvP? | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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ProfSc
United States51 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:55 Sevenofnines wrote: Honestly, the problem with Fungal is the root. They should just change it so that the root component of FG is only 2 seconds while the damage component is still over 4 seconds. That way in a full blown battle FG still has the same damage capability. But if you want to lock down a bunch of retreating units or a clump of air units with the root, it costs much more energy to do so. Oh I didn't think about that! That makes a lot of sense. If I remember correctly, I think Ketroc, who uses the most ravens at a master level out of any terran that I see on youtube regularly, said that the problem with fungal isn't so much the snare as it is the cancel on the order (as in, you're moving and then you get fungaled half-way, but your units will stop and stay put). I wonder if there's potential to address that. | ||
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Bango
United States106 Posts
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote: The issue with ravens is not the speed, the issue is getting enough energy to make a HSM pay off, and the issue is fungal growth locking down your ravens in the lategame. The speed makes no difference, a fungal is a fungal, it ensnares the raven in place and the situation is exactly the same as the current patch. Nothing changes. The second thing is, the creep spread. Yes, it has needed to be nerfed, but the problem is not the distance tumors are being spread, or even necessarily the rate it's spread. The problem is how long it takes creep to recede after killing tumors. It takes way too long to recede for a mechanic that is essentially Terrain on the map. Agree 100% with you. As I said a few pages back -- in the games we've tested in master's (obviously not quite your level) I've had the same experience. Ravens still get locked down with fungal before in range of HSM and I'm forced to toss out a useless PDD or let it die for nothing (since I can't throw down auto turrets because units are in the way and I'd kill my own bio force with HSM). As for harassing with Raven in the MU, 2 queens still shut it down with 7 range before they can get in to drop turrets with 3 range or shut down by a fungal/infested terran or muta play. I've noticed a difference in early-mid game creep spread insofar as it is slightly easier to control. As for late game, having expansions delayed ad infintium because creep from tumors/overlords is problematic...not to mention the delay between clearing creep tumors and actually being able to move forward with your position. And for anyone that's going to try to jump on me for giving feedback, or anyone else, i suggest you read the name of the thread as well as blizzard's iniative : BALANCE TESTING MAP. They want feedback NOW. Also, this. | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
ikr, LOL What a biased fuck... User was warned for this post | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
advising != blizzard implementing everything asked of them. On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote: The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement. In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors. On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game. if they wanted to balance how much the splash would hit, then decreasing the radius would be the way to go. On August 10 2012 02:47 CruelZeratul wrote: It already has been changed to Seeker Missile during beta, why does everyone still refer to it as HSM? Hmm Raven HSM attack Raven SM attack hmm | ||
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:57 Existor wrote: Creep spread nerf will be more viable with Overlord creep at Evo Chamber in HotS Orly!! I didn't hear about that ! O.O | ||
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ProfSc
United States51 Posts
if they wanted to balance how much the splash would hit, then decreasing the radius would be the way to go. I think though, there's a fine-line between game design and punishing players for putting their units in vulnerable positions. Decreasing the fungal radius would obviously affect how much the splash would hit, but then there would be zerg frustration of terran being able to walk up choke points and ramps without any real problems. I do understand your point though, so perhaps the way to go is to fix the snare... But if you extend unit pathing to the rest of SC2, then is decreasing the radius the answer to storm, vortex, collossi splash damage, etc., etc? The answer to these has traditionally been to "split." Fixing the pathing marginally would make splitting easier (lowering the skill ceiling for terran for better or for worse). As such, I think you can still have powerful spells as long as the units aren't clumped by definition of their pathing. Edit: Trying to attribute the quote to zhurai, but it wasn't working. Sorry =/ | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
From a design perspective, its just a terribly designed spell and the design philosophy behind it boggles my mind. A spell that completely removes the possibility for the enemy to do anything once he is caught, and its not like landing a fungal is hard or anything. Why any designer would go from a spell like dark swarm, which was so much more complex and made the game much more dynamic, to a spell like fungal growth, which in a nutshell comes down to "i hit you, i win" or "i missed you, i lose" is beyond my imagination. Fungal growth is the sole reason why air units just dont work against zerg, including the raven.. Sometimes i really think blizzard just used a dart board when they created this game. If it wasnt a dart board, then i just cant explain how they came up with so many stupid design ideas. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:56 ProfSc wrote: So, to take things in balanced view (and I mean this seriously in terms of apm control, etc). Protoss Micro - Terran Micro 1. Blink (happens throughout engagement) = Splitting (much more important earlier on but you may also need to kite) 2. Guardian Shield (one-time use) = Stim (one-time use unless the battle is prolonged) 3. Rogue zealot warp in (response will be to micro stalkers back) = Infestors/Blings (response will be continual splitting or focus-firing) 4. Focus fire weakened stalkers = Focus firing ultras with marauders/BLs with vikings/Infestors with marauders/ghosts/siege tanks Verdict: Incommensurate. Your analogy focuses on an early/mid-game PvP engagement, not a late game 200/200 army engage in TvZ. I think you should pick a point in the game that has more things going on for better comparison, unless you're microing a 200/200 blink stalker army in late-game PvP? There is no point to picking a different point of the game or attempting to prove the matter, others will simply post that terran micro is harder and is the most difficult. Even if you put a point in the game with either zerg or protoss that required 100% of the player’s focus, the conclusion would be that terran micro is more difficult and requires more skill. This has become “fact” because people have said it over and over, endlessly. There is no ability to prove that other races have their own difficulties and challenges, because any examples of these are discounted. This was the same way when terran was crushing everyone and considered over powers. It was considered the “easiest” race with the most forgiving macro mechanic, overpower units and difficult to scout builds. Nothing the terran players could say could dissuade the community from these opinions. If you look back in history, you will see how zergs complained that terrans could just “drop seven mules because they forgot to macro” and other such comments. If you look back in time and see how people used to complain about terran and the difficultly of playing them, it looks a lot like how terrans complain about protoss and zerg now. A year from now, maybe zerg will be the hardest again. Who knows? | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote: The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement. In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors. On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game. I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. Infestors are hardly the easiest to micro. Ghosts and HTs are waaaaaaaay easier. Also I don't know why you're complaining that HSM is cost-inefficient. That's how the game works. As you go up the tech tree units generally get more costly and more efficient (powerful) but less cost-efficient than lower tier units. Compare a marine to a broodlord for example. And as you can get potentially infinite HSMs from a raven it's not actually that cost-inefficient? There's so much random stating of facts in this thread to make it seem like zerg is OP. Overlords can drop creep to block potential expansion? omg so OP! That's like saying "omg terran can turn command centres into planetary fortresses! so op!". The races just work in different ways. | ||
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