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Call To Action: Balance Testing TvZ. - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Kraidio
Profile Joined May 2011
China133 Posts
August 09 2012 17:40 GMT
#761
Has anyone tried opening hellion/raven off a 1 rax expand and double gas? I did it one game and it was pretty fun, though I don't really know how effective it was.

The Raven was noticeably quicker, but I don't know how effective 6 hellions + 1 turret is compared to the usual two cloak banshees. I found that I was able to leave the turret shooting at the queens while moving the hellions around which was kind of nifty!

That said, it was only one game and I can't speak to the overall effectiveness.
A man does what he must — in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers, and pressures — and that is the basis of all human morality.
Torra
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway469 Posts
August 09 2012 17:40 GMT
#762
On August 10 2012 02:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:24 Cylindrical wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so

And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ?



How to harass Zerg with a Raven... One HSM... Thats it.
One corrupter can kill a raven, a raven cant kill the corrupter.

Because you are going to harass with ONE Raven? No, you are going to harass with few of them at least, and you will make tons of turrets with them, one HSM won't do anything except if he has all of the Drons at one mineral patch...

A few ravens in the mid game is a big investment, and delays all upgrades and production. IMO that's probably not worth it. I think drops would still be more effective.
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
August 09 2012 17:42 GMT
#763
On August 10 2012 02:40 Torra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:24 Cylindrical wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so

And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ?



How to harass Zerg with a Raven... One HSM... Thats it.
One corrupter can kill a raven, a raven cant kill the corrupter.

Because you are going to harass with ONE Raven? No, you are going to harass with few of them at least, and you will make tons of turrets with them, one HSM won't do anything except if he has all of the Drons at one mineral patch...

A few ravens in the mid game is a big investment, and delays all upgrades and production. IMO that's probably not worth it. I think drops would still be more effective.

Not to mention the fact that they'd most certainly hit after mutas/infestors are out, so it'd be a one way trip for all that gas.
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
August 09 2012 17:43 GMT
#764
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote:

IMO, progamer Terrans should be advising blizzard, yes, they have the main issues that need solving on the radar, but a range buff/energy tweak to HSM is what is needed to make ravens pay themselves off, not a speed buff that literally changes nothing vs fungal growth which is the core issue.
That would be the worst idea ever.
CruelZeratul
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany4588 Posts
August 09 2012 17:47 GMT
#765
It already has been changed to Seeker Missile during beta, why does everyone still refer to it as HSM?
ProfSc
Profile Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
August 09 2012 17:47 GMT
#766
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 09 2012 17:47 GMT
#767
On August 10 2012 02:39 Nimic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:10 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:
On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.>


PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg.

The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines.


PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly.


Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that.


A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor.

Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army.




I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings...


I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings.


You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings.

No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game.


I still don't see a problem. You know exactly what you need to work on to beat the zergs when you get to that stage the game and once you get it down, you will have a leg up on zergs that rely on you not splitting your vikings. Then you can take advantage of their crappy infestor control and poor us of corruptors. Plus once you have splitting up your vikings down to it being second nature, you can focus on drops and other harassment, further taxing the zergs who just pray they can a-move over you.

Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.


He just mentioned about 5 different micro tasks that you have to do simultaneously during an engagement, and your counter argument is that using blink is hard?


Well you don’t need to just blink. You also need to use guardian shield if it is available, warp in more stalkers and get them into the battle, focus down the wounded stalkers, be alert for the rogue zealot warp in and keep up with any other part of your build that you are doing. I am pretty bad at most of those things, but I keep working at it. Very little of this game is about doing one thing.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sevenofnines
Profile Joined May 2010
United States167 Posts
August 09 2012 17:55 GMT
#768
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.


Honestly, the problem with Fungal is the root. They should just change it so that the root component of FG is only 2 seconds while the damage component is still over 4 seconds. That way in a full blown battle FG still has the same damage capability. But if you want to lock down a bunch of retreating units or a clump of air units with the root, it costs much more energy to do so.
ProfSc
Profile Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
August 09 2012 17:56 GMT
#769
On August 10 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:39 Nimic wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:10 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]

PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg.

The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines.


PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly.


Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that.


A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor.

Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army.




I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings...


I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings.


You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings.

No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game.


I still don't see a problem. You know exactly what you need to work on to beat the zergs when you get to that stage the game and once you get it down, you will have a leg up on zergs that rely on you not splitting your vikings. Then you can take advantage of their crappy infestor control and poor us of corruptors. Plus once you have splitting up your vikings down to it being second nature, you can focus on drops and other harassment, further taxing the zergs who just pray they can a-move over you.

Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.


He just mentioned about 5 different micro tasks that you have to do simultaneously during an engagement, and your counter argument is that using blink is hard?


Well you don’t need to just blink. You also need to use guardian shield if it is available, warp in more stalkers and get them into the battle, focus down the wounded stalkers, be alert for the rogue zealot warp in and keep up with any other part of your build that you are doing. I am pretty bad at most of those things, but I keep working at it. Very little of this game is about doing one thing.


So, to take things in balanced view (and I mean this seriously in terms of apm control, etc).

Protoss Micro - Terran Micro
1. Blink (happens throughout engagement) = Splitting (much more important earlier on but you may also need to kite)
2. Guardian Shield (one-time use) = Stim (one-time use unless the battle is prolonged)
3. Rogue zealot warp in (response will be to micro stalkers back) = Infestors/Blings (response will be continual splitting or focus-firing)
4. Focus fire weakened stalkers = Focus firing ultras with marauders/BLs with vikings/Infestors with marauders/ghosts/siege tanks

Verdict: Incommensurate. Your analogy focuses on an early/mid-game PvP engagement, not a late game 200/200 army engage in TvZ. I think you should pick a point in the game that has more things going on for better comparison, unless you're microing a 200/200 blink stalker army in late-game PvP?
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state."
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
August 09 2012 17:57 GMT
#770
Creep spread nerf will be more viable with Overlord creep at Evo Chamber in HotS
ProfSc
Profile Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
August 09 2012 17:58 GMT
#771
On August 10 2012 02:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.


Honestly, the problem with Fungal is the root. They should just change it so that the root component of FG is only 2 seconds while the damage component is still over 4 seconds. That way in a full blown battle FG still has the same damage capability. But if you want to lock down a bunch of retreating units or a clump of air units with the root, it costs much more energy to do so.


Oh I didn't think about that! That makes a lot of sense. If I remember correctly, I think Ketroc, who uses the most ravens at a master level out of any terran that I see on youtube regularly, said that the problem with fungal isn't so much the snare as it is the cancel on the order (as in, you're moving and then you get fungaled half-way, but your units will stop and stay put). I wonder if there's potential to address that.
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state."
Bango
Profile Joined April 2011
United States106 Posts
August 09 2012 18:02 GMT
#772
i like these cahnges... but its going to be annoying getting used to 8 range for creep spread P
ello x]
mythandier
Profile Joined January 2011
United States828 Posts
August 09 2012 18:05 GMT
#773
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote:
The issue with ravens is not the speed, the issue is getting enough energy to make a HSM pay off, and the issue is fungal growth locking down your ravens in the lategame. The speed makes no difference, a fungal is a fungal, it ensnares the raven in place and the situation is exactly the same as the current patch. Nothing changes.

The second thing is, the creep spread. Yes, it has needed to be nerfed, but the problem is not the distance tumors are being spread, or even necessarily the rate it's spread. The problem is how long it takes creep to recede after killing tumors. It takes way too long to recede for a mechanic that is essentially Terrain on the map.


Agree 100% with you. As I said a few pages back -- in the games we've tested in master's (obviously not quite your level) I've had the same experience. Ravens still get locked down with fungal before in range of HSM and I'm forced to toss out a useless PDD or let it die for nothing (since I can't throw down auto turrets because units are in the way and I'd kill my own bio force with HSM).

As for harassing with Raven in the MU, 2 queens still shut it down with 7 range before they can get in to drop turrets with 3 range or shut down by a fungal/infested terran or muta play.

I've noticed a difference in early-mid game creep spread insofar as it is slightly easier to control. As for late game, having expansions delayed ad infintium because creep from tumors/overlords is problematic...not to mention the delay between clearing creep tumors and actually being able to move forward with your position.

And for anyone that's going to try to jump on me for giving feedback, or anyone else, i suggest you read the name of the thread as well as blizzard's iniative : BALANCE TESTING MAP. They want feedback NOW.


Also, this.
NOOBALOPSE
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada802 Posts
August 09 2012 18:13 GMT
#774
On August 10 2012 02:43 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote:

IMO, progamer Terrans should be advising blizzard, yes, they have the main issues that need solving on the radar, but a range buff/energy tweak to HSM is what is needed to make ravens pay themselves off, not a speed buff that literally changes nothing vs fungal growth which is the core issue.
That would be the worst idea ever.

ikr, LOL
What a biased fuck...

User was warned for this post
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 18:15:32
August 09 2012 18:13 GMT
#775
On August 10 2012 02:43 Yorbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:03 avilo wrote:

IMO, progamer Terrans should be advising blizzard, yes, they have the main issues that need solving on the radar, but a range buff/energy tweak to HSM is what is needed to make ravens pay themselves off, not a speed buff that literally changes nothing vs fungal growth which is the core issue.
That would be the worst idea ever.

advising != blizzard implementing everything asked of them.


On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

Show nested quote +
I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.

if they wanted to balance how much the splash would hit, then decreasing the radius would be the way to go.


On August 10 2012 02:47 CruelZeratul wrote:
It already has been changed to Seeker Missile during beta, why does everyone still refer to it as HSM?

Hmm

Raven HSM attack
Raven SM attack

hmm
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
NOOBALOPSE
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada802 Posts
August 09 2012 18:14 GMT
#776
On August 10 2012 02:57 Existor wrote:
Creep spread nerf will be more viable with Overlord creep at Evo Chamber in HotS

Orly!! I didn't hear about that ! O.O
ProfSc
Profile Joined April 2012
United States51 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 18:25:19
August 09 2012 18:22 GMT
#777
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.

if they wanted to balance how much the splash would hit, then decreasing the radius would be the way to go.



I think though, there's a fine-line between game design and punishing players for putting their units in vulnerable positions. Decreasing the fungal radius would obviously affect how much the splash would hit, but then there would be zerg frustration of terran being able to walk up choke points and ramps without any real problems. I do understand your point though, so perhaps the way to go is to fix the snare...

But if you extend unit pathing to the rest of SC2, then is decreasing the radius the answer to storm, vortex, collossi splash damage, etc., etc? The answer to these has traditionally been to "split." Fixing the pathing marginally would make splitting easier (lowering the skill ceiling for terran for better or for worse). As such, I think you can still have powerful spells as long as the units aren't clumped by definition of their pathing.

Edit: Trying to attribute the quote to zhurai, but it wasn't working. Sorry =/
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state."
gh0un
Profile Joined March 2011
601 Posts
August 09 2012 18:22 GMT
#778
Many problems would easily be solved if fungal growth wouldnt lock units down entirely, and im saying this as a zerg player.
From a design perspective, its just a terribly designed spell and the design philosophy behind it boggles my mind.

A spell that completely removes the possibility for the enemy to do anything once he is caught, and its not like landing a fungal is hard or anything.
Why any designer would go from a spell like dark swarm, which was so much more complex and made the game much more dynamic, to a spell like fungal growth, which in a nutshell comes down to "i hit you, i win" or "i missed you, i lose" is beyond my imagination.

Fungal growth is the sole reason why air units just dont work against zerg, including the raven..

Sometimes i really think blizzard just used a dart board when they created this game.
If it wasnt a dart board, then i just cant explain how they came up with so many stupid design ideas.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 09 2012 18:23 GMT
#779
On August 10 2012 02:56 ProfSc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:39 Nimic wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:10 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:
On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:
On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:
[quote]

PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly.


Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that.


A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor.

Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army.




I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings...


I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings.


You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings.

No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game.


I still don't see a problem. You know exactly what you need to work on to beat the zergs when you get to that stage the game and once you get it down, you will have a leg up on zergs that rely on you not splitting your vikings. Then you can take advantage of their crappy infestor control and poor us of corruptors. Plus once you have splitting up your vikings down to it being second nature, you can focus on drops and other harassment, further taxing the zergs who just pray they can a-move over you.

Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.


He just mentioned about 5 different micro tasks that you have to do simultaneously during an engagement, and your counter argument is that using blink is hard?


Well you don’t need to just blink. You also need to use guardian shield if it is available, warp in more stalkers and get them into the battle, focus down the wounded stalkers, be alert for the rogue zealot warp in and keep up with any other part of your build that you are doing. I am pretty bad at most of those things, but I keep working at it. Very little of this game is about doing one thing.


So, to take things in balanced view (and I mean this seriously in terms of apm control, etc).

Protoss Micro - Terran Micro
1. Blink (happens throughout engagement) = Splitting (much more important earlier on but you may also need to kite)
2. Guardian Shield (one-time use) = Stim (one-time use unless the battle is prolonged)
3. Rogue zealot warp in (response will be to micro stalkers back) = Infestors/Blings (response will be continual splitting or focus-firing)
4. Focus fire weakened stalkers = Focus firing ultras with marauders/BLs with vikings/Infestors with marauders/ghosts/siege tanks

Verdict: Incommensurate. Your analogy focuses on an early/mid-game PvP engagement, not a late game 200/200 army engage in TvZ. I think you should pick a point in the game that has more things going on for better comparison, unless you're microing a 200/200 blink stalker army in late-game PvP?


There is no point to picking a different point of the game or attempting to prove the matter, others will simply post that terran micro is harder and is the most difficult. Even if you put a point in the game with either zerg or protoss that required 100% of the player’s focus, the conclusion would be that terran micro is more difficult and requires more skill. This has become “fact” because people have said it over and over, endlessly. There is no ability to prove that other races have their own difficulties and challenges, because any examples of these are discounted.

This was the same way when terran was crushing everyone and considered over powers. It was considered the “easiest” race with the most forgiving macro mechanic, overpower units and difficult to scout builds. Nothing the terran players could say could dissuade the community from these opinions. If you look back in history, you will see how zergs complained that terrans could just “drop seven mules because they forgot to macro” and other such comments. If you look back in time and see how people used to complain about terran and the difficultly of playing them, it looks a lot like how terrans complain about protoss and zerg now.

A year from now, maybe zerg will be the hardest again. Who knows?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Zrana
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom698 Posts
August 09 2012 18:43 GMT
#780
On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.

In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.

On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.

I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals.


Infestors are hardly the easiest to micro. Ghosts and HTs are waaaaaaaay easier.

Also I don't know why you're complaining that HSM is cost-inefficient. That's how the game works. As you go up the tech tree units generally get more costly and more efficient (powerful) but less cost-efficient than lower tier units. Compare a marine to a broodlord for example.
And as you can get potentially infinite HSMs from a raven it's not actually that cost-inefficient?

There's so much random stating of facts in this thread to make it seem like zerg is OP. Overlords can drop creep to block potential expansion? omg so OP! That's like saying "omg terran can turn command centres into planetary fortresses! so op!". The races just work in different ways.
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