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On August 10 2012 01:53 crbox wrote:
I can't believe i'm gonna post on a balance thread, but here's how I feel.
I agree that late game tvz might be hard on the T side, but the raven is kind of strong i think. It's not used enough that we can call that an issue, but seeker missile just completely destroys corrupters with viking support. If a terran mechs and is able to get his side of the map, mass thor / raven / viking beats pretty much anything that zerg has.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'd like to see seeker missile splash on your own unit, so that you can just spam it mindlessly
Umm Seeker missile does do splash on your own units........
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On August 10 2012 01:56 niteReloaded wrote:
Fungal is a terrible spell to start off with.
Almost everything about it is annoying or boring. It negates opposition micro, it takes medium amounts of damage but is usually mass casted.
An exciting spell would be the exact opposite: allow opponent to defend/react, does heavy damage but is balanced in a way that it's less frequently cast.
You sound like a Terran...
You proposal is to change Fungal into Psi Storm with KA upgrade. I can think of a multitude of reasons why that would be less exciting.
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Just thought I would add in my two cents here again to reiterate. Blizzard did OK in pin pointing issues or things that could be tweaked to make it not such an advantage for ZvT. But they didn't quite understand the actual core problems with the aspects of ZvT they are trying to balance.
The issue with ravens is not the speed, the issue is getting enough energy to make a HSM pay off, and the issue is fungal growth locking down your ravens in the lategame. The speed makes no difference, a fungal is a fungal, it ensnares the raven in place and the situation is exactly the same as the current patch. Nothing changes.
The second thing is, the creep spread. Yes, it has needed to be nerfed, but the problem is not the distance tumors are being spread, or even necessarily the rate it's spread. The problem is how long it takes creep to recede after killing tumors. It takes way too long to recede for a mechanic that is essentially Terrain on the map.
IMO, progamer Terrans should be advising blizzard, yes, they have the main issues that need solving on the radar, but a range buff/energy tweak to HSM is what is needed to make ravens pay themselves off, not a speed buff that literally changes nothing vs fungal growth which is the core issue.
Same for the creep problem. It's not how fast it's spread outwards, it's the amount of time it takes to recede is way too long.
(also FYI, I was testing the map yesterday with luckyfool him making the standard late game raven/vikings and myself with standard amounts of corruptor/broodlord/infestor, and the battles basically played out the exact same way they do without the raven speed buff. I just locked down the ravens with fungal growths and they are unable to get HSMs off. Speed doesn't matter at all).
So speak up, it's taken 5-6 months for blizzard to acknowledge there is a balance issue finally, let's help them get it right instead needing to wait another 6 months for them to realize the raven speed did nothing to help those late game situations where you want to use the HSM.
And for anyone that's going to try to jump on me for giving feedback, or anyone else, i suggest you read the name of the thread as well as blizzard's iniative : BALANCE TESTING MAP. They want feedback NOW.
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I played the map and I spread creep like crazy like always. It seems the tumors have trouble going up ramps, but when have they not. Not sure if the change will stop the whiners, but hey it's worth a shot. I am pro-change.
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On August 10 2012 02:01 GloPikkle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:56 niteReloaded wrote:
Fungal is a terrible spell to start off with.
Almost everything about it is annoying or boring. It negates opposition micro, it takes medium amounts of damage but is usually mass casted.
An exciting spell would be the exact opposite: allow opponent to defend/react, does heavy damage but is balanced in a way that it's less frequently cast. You sound like a Terran... You proposal is to change Fungal into Psi Storm with KA upgrade. I can think of a multitude of reasons why that would be less exciting.
Why does he "Sound like a Terran"?
What does that even mean. In any case, I think you are getting defensive about a valid criticism. Even as someone who plays Zerg at a high level, I think fungal is boring and more importantly, is bad design. It denies movement, micro, affects both ground and air units, and can be repeatedly auto-cast. It even has a huge area of effect and is easily cast. What about any of that makes a great spell design? The ability to easily cast and re-cast an extremely strong spell? You tell me.
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Seems quite interesting, and to me, a possible alternative to PTR. It however lacks ladder though.
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wonder if any terran has tried the raven as harrass option now, that it's faster...
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On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that. A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor. Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army. I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings... I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings.
You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines and can just be improved. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings.
No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game.
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On August 10 2012 02:07 testthewest wrote:
wonder if any terran has tried the raven as harrass option now, that it's faster...
This may be the only relevant benefit to the current change of the Raven imo
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On August 10 2012 02:10 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that. A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor. Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army. I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings... I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings. You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings. No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game.
I still don't see a problem. You know exactly what you need to work on to beat the zergs when you get to that stage the game and once you get it down, you will have a leg up on zergs that rely on you not splitting your vikings. Then you can take advantage of their crappy infestor control and poor us of corruptors. Plus once you have splitting up your vikings down to it being second nature, you can focus on drops and other harassment, further taxing the zergs who just pray they can a-move over you.
Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.
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On August 10 2012 02:12 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:07 testthewest wrote:
wonder if any terran has tried the raven as harrass option now, that it's faster... This may be the only relevant benefit to the current change of the Raven imo
A corrupter still faster than raven, so
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On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so
And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ?
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On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ?
How to harass Zerg with a Raven... One HSM... Thats it.
One corrupter can kill a raven, a raven cant kill the corrupter.
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On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:12 zmansman17 wrote:On August 10 2012 02:07 testthewest wrote:
wonder if any terran has tried the raven as harrass option now, that it's faster... This may be the only relevant benefit to the current change of the Raven imo A corrupter still faster than raven, so
Your answer doesn't even make sense... If anything, I will have Mutas to hunt down Ravens, not Corruptors that I can't do anything with in that stage of the game.
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On August 10 2012 02:24 Cylindrical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ? How to harass Zerg with a Raven... One HSM... Thats it. One corrupter can kill a raven, a raven cant kill the corrupter.
Because you are going to harass with ONE Raven? No, you are going to harass with few of them at least, and you will make tons of turrets with them, one HSM won't do anything except if he has all of the Drons at one mineral patch...
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On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.
Playing at 300 APM shouldn't be the answer for zerg A-move, because there'll be a skill mismatch of the players all the way up to progamer level if that's the case. No one is asking for Blizzard to make the game easier (except for people who liked the queen change), but rather to make it harder for zergs to A-move.
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Ravens are bad not because they speed. I doubt it will have any impact. Creep change is good but it wont change how boring early tvz is now. Hope I'm wrong.
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On August 10 2012 01:53 crbox wrote:
I can't believe i'm gonna post on a balance thread, but here's how I feel.
I agree that late game tvz might be hard on the T side, but the raven is kind of strong i think. It's not used enough that we can call that an issue, but seeker missile just completely destroys corrupters with viking support. If a terran mechs and is able to get his side of the map, mass thor / raven / viking beats pretty much anything that zerg has.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'd like to see seeker missile splash on your own unit, so that you can just spam it mindlessly
Except zerglings? Or roaches?
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If energy for HSM is the problem maybe make the energy upgrade make ravens start at 100 instead of 75. Then it wouldn't take as long before HSM can be cast and ravens still can't cast more than one in a battle like if HSM cost 100. (Or you could make the raven's max energy 175 and the missle cost 100.)
I dont think it would make turret spam or point defence OP would it? Those aren't used much right now anyways so seeing them more often wouldn't be that bad either.
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On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:10 zmansman17 wrote:On August 10 2012 02:00 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that. A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor. Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army. I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings... I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings. You act as if spreading vikings is the same as an easier task, like spreading marines. The difference is that in the late game you have to worry about many control groups and executing abilities all at once. Not only do you have to spread marines, stim, target fire with your tanks, EMP with your ghosts, cast PDD or HSM, but then also you have to find a way to spread all of these units wherever Zerg engages you. It's actually surprisingly difficult to spread vikings. No other race has to rely on so much micro, wherein one mistake is sufficient to lose the game. I still don't see a problem. You know exactly what you need to work on to beat the zergs when you get to that stage the game and once you get it down, you will have a leg up on zergs that rely on you not splitting your vikings. Then you can take advantage of their crappy infestor control and poor us of corruptors. Plus once you have splitting up your vikings down to it being second nature, you can focus on drops and other harassment, further taxing the zergs who just pray they can a-move over you. Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it.
He just mentioned about 5 different micro tasks that you have to do simultaneously during an engagement, and your counter argument is that using blink is hard?
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EPT
