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On August 10 2012 00:48 Darkthorn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are? You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races.
Feel free to name the top Zergs that were actually at the MLG Arena. Same with Assembly.
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feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf
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On August 10 2012 00:49 Gentso wrote:
I'm going to come off as a total asshat here, but.... I think the community's obsession with balance is rather ridiculous. The thing is, Blizzard knows best. Sometimes they're wrong, but eventually they DO get it right. The best example is when nothing is wrong at all. I mean, we've been watching SC2 players evolve for over 2 years now and we've seen balance whining come and go to and fro. Quite usually, Blizzard does nothing at all and eventually the 'meta' changes. People learn to adapt. Yet, some people decide it's necessary to suggest or even make changes of their own. Honestly, that does't help anyone. Blizzard, afaik, balances the game through win %'s and PRO feedback... and it's working. There isn't anything blatantly over powered like 1-1-1, or 5rax reaper anymore. SC2 has been in a great state for most of 2012 I'd say, because the player who plays better wins.
This would be nice if it were true, but really in the history of SC2 this has not been the case. Usually a meta change has only come after a balance change. In the few cases where we've seen a big shift in playstyle without blizzard fixing something first, it's usually been followed by some kind of balance change later on, whether it really needed one or not.
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On August 10 2012 00:37 xertion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:10 Zanno wrote:On August 10 2012 00:01 xertion wrote:
So... Possible solutions that I would enjoy to see (Brainstorm, not saying all nerfs at the same time):
· Increase build time on Queen (To make some kind of early game pressure more viable for additional seconds)
· Nerf one of the previous buffs, maybe -1 range (+1 instead of +2 from before) or maybe just increase the energy from 25 to 35-40. Not up to 50. And maybe slightly increase the movement speed of the queen instead.
· Revert the overlord buff or nerf it so that if Zerg decide to go super greedy, a terran should be able to suprise the Zerg either with greedy play himself, or with aggresive play. Right now the sueciding Overlord scout half of the base even if you have patroling Marines...
changing the build time on queens would totally reset zerg build orders in a way equally as severe as the warp gate nerf, which honestly didn't even solve the problem it was meant to solve (balancing pvp early aggression) the overlord change is good because no player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark past the very early game Regarding the comment about "no player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark past the very early game". It's a huge difference between "playing totally in the dark" and to reduce the movement speed of the Overlord. If we take Daybreak as an example, the Zerg can get to the perfect position without the Terran being able to do anything about it without building a barrack next to the position, lifting it up, clearing it out and then fly back again (Which could be very risky to break the wall like that if Zerg is doing a push). I would rather see that the Zerg had to sneak it in by maybe going through the choke of the Third on Daybreak, or instead risking the first marine to shoot it down if it just rushes through the map. Also, I'm not saying that Overlords shouldn't be able to reach the Terran base when the Terran has a marine patrolling the edge. What I'm saying is that I do not feel that they should be able to fly THROUGH the Terran base and scout the whole chabang. Compare it to a scan. When we scan a Protoss, Terran or a Zerg, it is chance involved. Ofcourse scans are good and I'm not complaining, but I'm just saying that if we scan, we do not see everything, we could even see nothing at all. If your argument to the insane speed of overlords is "No player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark", well then both Terran and Protoss would need additional buffs in their scouting. Also remember that a Zergling is probably the best way to scout the front earlygame between the races. If you scout the front and suecide an overlord with semi slow speed compared to now; then you would probably get "a balanced amount" of information.
I think the biggest thing that needs to change is the areas for overlords to be safely put, such as Daybreak like you mentioned. Also cloud kingdom comes to mind with an overlord spot right next to the ramp by the natural. These spots were great when zerg had trouble scouting and poor early game defense. Now that they have faster overlords and better early game defense with stronger queens, these positions should be removed from maps. This will force zergs to have to sacrifice overlords and have lings running around the map (which means less drones) if they want to be safe. It will also punish zergs much more if they are playing greedy and don't have free overlord scouting posts to see if an attack is coming. Terran/protoss will be able to force units to be made without too much commitment by having marines or zealots moving around the map and clearly watch towers, which in turns slows down the zerg economy and makes the late game a little more fair.
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On August 09 2012 05:15 Cainam wrote:
As a player of all 3 races I think these are great changes. Very interested to see how it plays out
Likewise. Look like good little changes.
That some zerg players are managing to get angry about this is kinda sad, it slows spread a little but doesn't make it any harder to do (other than being a bit more awkward traversing ramps).
I can see creep drop + surplus queens tumouring all but negating the slow down at the pro level.
My gut tells me ravens could maybe still use a little more love. Expense, Build speed and HSM energy cost for the relatively weak splash, maybe... being a bit slow never seemed like their big weakness.
I'm going to have a try at both sides. Not that my creeps spreadings all that impressive anyway!
All of you getting angry, go play the other race for a bit, it'll be good for you I promise (and I don't mean cheesing in the low leagues!!).
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On August 10 2012 00:48 Darkthorn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are? You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races. I think these statistics are retarded. The month before this zerg was considered op. If you can't look any further than results of 3 or 4 tournaments (without regarding gameplay), you have absolutely nothing to say about balance. Me neither, but for other reasons.
I for one totally agree with blizzards direction in this issue. I think (could be wrong) the raven is meant as the sc2 variant of the science vessel, a high gas costing late game unit, to avoid the need of 'gas dump' or how one'd call it. Blizzard identifies the raven is underused, because of complaints about uselessness in battle, so they try to address that issue.
This has nothing to do with tournaments. May i remind you that queen buff was just after gsl was won by drg. I'm glad blizzard operates outside short term tournament results.
And if you're talking about creep, it's already been mentioned that creep spread only has become harder, not slower on open ground.
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On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf
There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting.
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Two minor changes and zergs are going nuts. It would be nice if we could all, zerg, protoss and terran, be on equal ground but i guess some folks here just want their race to be easy to play. Blizzard is NOT going to fix the game, balance is not what they are looking at now guys. They want to make the game playable until HOTS comes out so they can take our money again with an expac(we all love the game and will buy it regardless but lets not hide the true motives). We can sit here and think of how this or that would work but in all honestly, i don't see them really fixing anything the right way but rather put band aids on things so we shut up to a degree and wait out until HOTS. Money plays a big factor as long as the pros don't make an up roar about balance.
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Balance guy @ Blizzard is ............... A MONKEY!
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On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting.
in asymmetrical designed games you can argue all you want about details, and while they are interesting in some cases i prefer the only objective data there is to measure balance which are winrates in the end
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On August 10 2012 01:06 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting. in asymmetrical designed games you can argue all you want about details, and while they are interesting in some cases i prefer the only objective data there is to measure balance which are winrates in the end
Well, you can definitely reduce that argument to absurdity if say, we added a fourth race: the coinflip. Perfect 50% balance, but the matches only last an average of three seconds.
Also I really oughta start reading the entire quoted posts, cheers.
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On August 10 2012 01:06 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting. in asymmetrical designed games you can argue all you want about details, and while they are interesting in some cases i prefer the only objective data there is to measure balance which are winrates in the end They are objective and meaningless. Besides balance, there is need of a gameplan. Otherwise flipping a coin would suffice, as already said. The issue here is this gameplan.
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A patch that look like a change but in real change nothing.
Well played blizzard! You guys should go into politics!
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On August 10 2012 00:58 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:48 Darkthorn wrote:On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are? You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races. Feel free to name the top Zergs that were actually at the MLG Arena. Same with Assembly. Let the guy cry out. He has a lot of zergy emotions caged inside.
He could have also add that since DRG's win, there have been 3 zergs out of the 16 players from the last two ro8. (Or 6 out of the 32 players from the last two ro16 if you prefer). Saying that zerg is currently imba at the highest level is plain wrong but i'm not going to go into that debate since blizzard have the same conclusion.
Blizzard is going in the right direction. More ravens and less creepspread in the game is a good thing in the current state of the game imo.
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On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting.
I agree that you have to play reactive and dynamically, but your example of a build that isn't dynamic and reactive is rather stupid. Stephanos opening in ZvP is exactly reactive.The zerg player has to read his opponent and react to what he sees or he dies. Which is why so few are able to pull it off and no one can do it as well as him. To say that it is one build is simpleminded. It's an opening build with many pathways - including mutas.
Remember naniwa saying "forge first or die trying"?
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On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly.
Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that.
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On August 10 2012 01:00 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:15 Cainam wrote:
As a player of all 3 races I think these are great changes. Very interested to see how it plays out Likewise. Look like good little changes. That some zerg players are managing to get angry about this is kinda sad, it slows spread a little but doesn't make it any harder to do (other than being a bit more awkward traversing ramps). I can see creep drop + surplus queens tumouring all but negating the slow down at the pro level. My gut tells me ravens could maybe still use a little more love. Expense, Build speed and HSM energy cost for the relatively weak splash, maybe... being a bit slow never seemed like their big weakness. I'm going to have a try at both sides. Not that my creeps spreadings all that impressive anyway! All of you getting angry, go play the other race for a bit, it'll be good for you I promise (and I don't mean cheesing in the low leagues!!).
Well if you think about the queen and overlord buffs, those gave Zerg so much, including near perfect early, mid game and late game scouting (by far the best scouting in game). You could move overlords and scout freely, perhaps even w/o sacking them. And then of course queens had longer range, so hellions could no longer deny early creep, so even a bad zerg player could get creep to your base very early in the game. So it only makes sense after giving Zerg the best scouting, superior early game defense with queen range, that the first part of that is reduced. And it's still barely reduced at all.
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On August 10 2012 01:28 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting. I agree that you have to play reactive and dynamically, but your example of a build that isn't dynamic and reactive is rather stupid. Stephanos opening in ZvP is exactly reactive.The zerg player has to read his opponent and react to what he sees or he dies. Which is why so few are able to pull it off and no one can do it as well as him. To say that it is one build is simpleminded. It's an opening build with many pathways - including mutas. Remember naniwa saying "forge first or die trying"?
The problem with Stephano's style is that you could literally tell the Protoss player about it at the 5 minute mark and there would be exactly nothing he can do to take advantage of it.
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Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven
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EPT
