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A starport w/ tech-lab is 200m 125 gas, then it can make one raven at the time
Which costs 100m 200gas
Upgrades takes 110 seconds to be done
And after this the Raven has 75 mana, when HSM costs 125 (even not 100, and I'm not even speaking about 75, which seems at least fair in comparison to the HT / Infestor)
This changes are pointless, because there's no actual "transition timing" with these costs and time build of production facilities and ravens. Scenario will not change: 30 minutes game on metropolis then transition into ravens. +- 5 minutes. This is not good game design for SC2 overall and boring to watch.
I think, this just pointer finger from Blizzard to players, like "use the raven, raven is cool". Raven still has less speed than an Infestor, which is not a problem, unless we don't see it casting range: 6 against 9+2.
This is not even close. And if you mess up for 1 second at 50 minutes game you can be chain-fungaled and you even can't throw out back HSMs because of range and this is just gg. Don't forget about neural parasite, which has more range than HSM, I can't remember, but at MLG open bracket or smth I've seen game like that: parasite on a raven and HSM em all.
This is just another the Mothership's Vortex in the game, which, again, is not good in terms of game design. Every Protoss complains about this game changing moment like the Vortex. Zerg players too. But the problem is w/o Vortex you can't beat Zerg's army, same story in TvZ, and Blizz gives us 2nd Vortex in the game, but to another race.
Raven right now is bad unit, and it will be even after this patch and obviously will be buffed sometimes. But why simply don't increase supply cost for Brood Lords to 6 like Battlecruiser and Carrier has? Why ultimate army, which can be produced from 5 hatcheries at one moment has so low supply cost? I not speaking about build time or money cost, but this?
How about to just increase size of infestor? They are fastest, all-purpose, high range caster. That's OK. But ghosts and HTs are small units at battlefield and they have to be actually controlled by player, because of splash damage, like colossi, tanks, storms, even fungals. This is good for game design - controlling your units a bit, not just A-click your entire army. This, I think, is good change, and it will be done, maybe earlier, maybe later, but if Blizzard wants to balance game in terms of control involving that's definitely amazing change.
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I'm not a progamer, and maybe I'm wrong. But personally I do not feel that the problem with TvZ is the late game composition of Terran.
My issue is the Zerg uncontested economy. I feel that with the queen range buff, queens dont only hold off hellions; but they also hold off 2 racks, reapers, banshee's, hellions early game. As a Terran, I feel like there is nothing I can do versus a Zerg to hurt him early game.
A few months ago we could do a reaper rush, 2 racks bunker push, reactor hellions and some other early game pressure to keep the Zerg's economy from going out of control. Now we have... 0 Racks expand or 1 racks expand. Ofcourse a 2 rack push may still happen, but it's in very rare occasions that it actually works or do enough damage.
Also I feel that it's even more difficult to deny overlord positions on the map with the sick movement speed of the overlord. Example is on Daybreak where there is NO way for Terran to put early pressure on if he puts his barracks in base. The Zerg will see every move out, and since the map is so long; the Terran can not reach the Zerg base in time.
So... Possible solutions that I would enjoy to see (Brainstorm, not saying all nerfs at the same time):
· Increase build time on Queen (To make some kind of early game pressure more viable for additional seconds)
· Nerf one of the previous buffs, maybe -1 range (+1 instead of +2 from before) or maybe just increase the energy from 25 to 35-40. Not up to 50. And maybe slightly increase the movement speed of the queen instead.
· Revert the overlord buff or nerf it so that if Zerg decide to go super greedy, a terran should be able to suprise the Zerg either with greedy play himself, or with aggresive play. Right now the sueciding Overlord scout half of the base even if you have patroling Marines...
What I'm saying is, I would rather see a nerf to the Zerg than a Buff for the Terran. I feel that it is the Zerg race that is overpowered, not the Terran race that is underpowered.
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Raven was cool with 9 HSM range in beta.
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On August 10 2012 00:03 anotherone wrote:
Raven was cool with 9 HSM range in beta.
Not in TvT, siege tanks lines were so easily broken 
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I think the Raven change is spot-on. The big issue with Ravens is that the Terran army is designed such that retreating is an extremely common, necessary action, but the Raven can't actually do this at all. Losing Medivacs is generally the biggest liability to the Terran army, and with Ravens' 2.25 speed, they're too likely to be killed to be cost effective.
And by the way, if you're using Ravens primarily for HSMs, you're doing it wrong. PDDs and autoturrets impede so many non-terran units from doing their job it's crazy.
As for creep, I think increasing the tumor's cooldown would be a better fit for altering high levels of play more so than lower levels like Blizzard's post suggests it intends to do.
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On August 10 2012 00:01 xertion wrote:
I'm not a progamer, and maybe I'm wrong. But personally I do not feel that the problem with TvZ is the late game composition of Terran.
My issue is the Zerg uncontested economy. I feel that with the queen range buff, queens dont only hold off hellions; but they also hold off 2 racks, reapers, banshee's, hellions early game. As a Terran, I feel like there is nothing I can do versus a Zerg to hurt him early game.
A few months ago we could do a reaper rush, 2 racks bunker push, reactor hellions and some other early game pressure to keep the Zerg's economy from going out of control. Now we have... 0 Racks expand or 1 racks expand. Ofcourse a 2 rack push may still happen, but it's in very rare occasions that it actually works or do enough damage.
Also I feel that it's even more difficult to deny overlord positions on the map with the sick movement speed of the overlord. Example is on Daybreak where there is NO way for Terran to put early pressure on if he puts his barracks in base. The Zerg will see every move out, and since the map is so long; the Terran can not reach the Zerg base in time.
So... Possible solutions that I would enjoy to see (Brainstorm, not saying all nerfs at the same time):
· Increase build time on Queen (To make some kind of early game pressure more viable for additional seconds)
· Nerf one of the previous buffs, maybe -1 range (+1 instead of +2 from before) or maybe just increase the energy from 25 to 35-40. Not up to 50. And maybe slightly increase the movement speed of the queen instead.
· Revert the overlord buff or nerf it so that if Zerg decide to go super greedy, a terran should be able to suprise the Zerg either with greedy play himself, or with aggresive play. Right now the sueciding Overlord scout half of the base even if you have patroling Marines...
What I'm saying is, I would rather see a nerf to the Zerg than a Buff for the Terran. I feel that it is the Zerg race that is overpowered, not the Terran race that is underpowered.
To be fair I still 2 rax zerg, it's 9x harder but terran can still pull it off. But for the most part I agree with what you're saying, if you can't touch a 3 base zerg economy when you try to take your third the game basically ends. A never ending wave of units will deny the terran's third and we just kinda starve to death.
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On August 10 2012 00:01 xertion wrote:
So... Possible solutions that I would enjoy to see (Brainstorm, not saying all nerfs at the same time):
· Increase build time on Queen (To make some kind of early game pressure more viable for additional seconds)
· Nerf one of the previous buffs, maybe -1 range (+1 instead of +2 from before) or maybe just increase the energy from 25 to 35-40. Not up to 50. And maybe slightly increase the movement speed of the queen instead.
· Revert the overlord buff or nerf it so that if Zerg decide to go super greedy, a terran should be able to suprise the Zerg either with greedy play himself, or with aggresive play. Right now the sueciding Overlord scout half of the base even if you have patroling Marines...
i don't think any of those changes are particularly good
changing the build time on queens would totally reset zerg build orders in a way equally as severe as the warp gate nerf, which honestly didn't even solve the problem it was meant to solve (balancing pvp early aggression)
the overlord change is good because no player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark past the very early game
now what i would think would be more interesting, is a reversion of the snipe nerf
how would the now absurd lategame eco of zerg match up against the previously invincible lategame ghost max of the terran? as it currently stands, ghosts have dropped out of tvz entirely. reverting the snipe nerf would do absolutely nothing to tvp and open back up some experimental ghost rushes in tvt that never got fully explored
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On August 10 2012 00:01 xertion wrote:
What I'm saying is, I would rather see a nerf to the Zerg than a Buff for the Terran. I feel that it is the Zerg race that is overpowered, not the Terran race that is underpowered.
especially since the buff is totally useless in 90% of TvZ whereas the queen is the first thing a zerg builds besides drones, in 95%+ of matches.
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I really never had a problem with the queen buff, however the only issue I had with it was the out of control creep spread that came from it. I'm glad they are thinking of changing this slightly, I think its totally fair.
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On August 09 2012 06:07 Kenshi235 wrote:
Creep spread change sounds like it might be significant.
Raven speed means nothing as ravens are still trash and will continue to be trash aside from TvT and making just 1 for detection. 125 energy to HSM and "maybe" hit something with super slow projectile speed for 100 dmg + some splash is god awful.
1 storm/fungal is 10x harder to dodge than HSM and does WAY more dmg b/c of this. Did I mention infestors/HT's can cast their respective abilities 2x and still have energy left over? Did I mention HTs cost 200, infestors 250, and ravens cost 300? Ravens also take longest time to build and require most infastructure* to mass.
Only pros about raven vs other casters is they have most HP, 1 armor, and detection.
You forgot about the biggest buff that any unit can have, PERIOD.
It can fly.
Imagine flying infestors or marines, and ask where your god is now. They are simply different units.
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On August 10 2012 00:10 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:01 xertion wrote:
So... Possible solutions that I would enjoy to see (Brainstorm, not saying all nerfs at the same time):
· Increase build time on Queen (To make some kind of early game pressure more viable for additional seconds)
· Nerf one of the previous buffs, maybe -1 range (+1 instead of +2 from before) or maybe just increase the energy from 25 to 35-40. Not up to 50. And maybe slightly increase the movement speed of the queen instead.
· Revert the overlord buff or nerf it so that if Zerg decide to go super greedy, a terran should be able to suprise the Zerg either with greedy play himself, or with aggresive play. Right now the sueciding Overlord scout half of the base even if you have patroling Marines...
changing the build time on queens would totally reset zerg build orders in a way equally as severe as the warp gate nerf, which honestly didn't even solve the problem it was meant to solve (balancing pvp early aggression) the overlord change is good because no player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark past the very early game
Regarding the comment about "no player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark past the very early game". It's a huge difference between "playing totally in the dark" and to reduce the movement speed of the Overlord.
If we take Daybreak as an example, the Zerg can get to the perfect position without the Terran being able to do anything about it without building a barrack next to the position, lifting it up, clearing it out and then fly back again (Which could be very risky to break the wall like that if Zerg is doing a push).
I would rather see that the Zerg had to sneak it in by maybe going through the choke of the Third on Daybreak, or instead risking the first marine to shoot it down if it just rushes through the map.
Also, I'm not saying that Overlords shouldn't be able to reach the Terran base when the Terran has a marine patrolling the edge. What I'm saying is that I do not feel that they should be able to fly THROUGH the Terran base and scout the whole chabang.
Compare it to a scan. When we scan a Protoss, Terran or a Zerg, it is chance involved. Ofcourse scans are good and I'm not complaining, but I'm just saying that if we scan, we do not see everything, we could even see nothing at all.
If your argument to the insane speed of overlords is "No player should ever be forced to play totally in the dark", well then both Terran and Protoss would need additional buffs in their scouting.
Also remember that a Zergling is probably the best way to scout the front earlygame between the races. If you scout the front and suecide an overlord with semi slow speed compared to now; then you would probably get "a balanced amount" of information.
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Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD.
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You could really boost the thread by putting pro opinions on the original post, so one does not have to read everything.
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On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are?
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I like these changes to the raven, I still there are more problems with the raven then just the speed but its a baby step. This kind of changes TvT in a little way. Cloaked banshees would normally get away easy against a raven viking combo and then uncloak and then go back as soon as the eluded the raven. This helps protect against a 1 1 1 cloak banshee opener in T v T a little bit easier. And now with this speed boost some terrans may not have to expend the energy on the OC for a scan and they can invest that into mules. So i think this change more factors into TvT than any other matchup because when a terran is going across the map in TvZ with his army he isnt going extremely fast. Hes going about at the speed of the Raven's old speed. Obviously there are exceptions like if a Terran is playing Bio. But it also benefits the mech going terran as well. I think this change brings a little bit of a change to the meta game for TvZ but i think theres going to be more of a shift to TvT then anything.
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As a zerg fan and casual player, I think these changes sound reasonable. I think the small buff to Ravens will increase the likelihood of Terran's experimenting with them moreso than Terran's deciding to build them based on the buff alone. It's just the way some of the patches work out - something gets buffed and suddenly everyone thinks it's an amazing unit and they have to incorporate it into their builds. Looking forward to seeing how this works out.
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On August 09 2012 22:33 furo wrote:
the new raven speed is nice if you dont mess up the micro. i flew my first raven into 5 queens -_-.
didnt see any huge changes with the raven, yes they are slightly faster but still so fragil and hard to micro as before. needs a ton of micro / has a high skill cap -> i suck with it.
its not a change that will be good for any terran player, just will make the game more balanced in the very late game at a high level.
compared with 3->5 range for queens (which will improve even the worst player), this change does nothing for diamond terrans vs zerg.
i could not test the creep spreat obv. just saying that its not a buff for most terrans.
All casters are fragile...wtf do you want a raven/infestor/hp with THOR HP AND ARMOR?
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On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are?
You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races.
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I'm going to come off as a total asshat here, but.... I think the community's obsession with balance is rather ridiculous. The thing is, Blizzard knows best. Sometimes they're wrong, but eventually they DO get it right. The best example is when nothing is wrong at all. I mean, we've been watching SC2 players evolve for over 2 years now and we've seen balance whining come and go to and fro. Quite usually, Blizzard does nothing at all and eventually the 'meta' changes. People learn to adapt. Yet, some people decide it's necessary to suggest or even make changes of their own. Honestly, that does't help anyone. Blizzard, afaik, balances the game through win %'s and PRO feedback... and it's working. There isn't anything blatantly over powered like 1-1-1, or 5rax reaper anymore. SC2 has been in a great state for most of 2012 I'd say, because the player who plays better wins.
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EPT
