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On August 10 2012 01:18 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 00:58 Huragius wrote:On August 10 2012 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:48 Darkthorn wrote:On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are? You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races. Feel free to name the top Zergs that were actually at the MLG Arena. Same with Assembly. Let the guy cry out. He has a lot of zergy emotions caged inside. He could have also add that since DRG's win, there have been 3 zergs out of the 16 players from the last two ro8. (Or 6 out of the 32 players from the last two ro16 if you prefer). Saying that zerg is currently imba at the highest level is plain wrong but i'm not going to go into that debate since blizzard have the same conclusion. Blizzard is going in the right direction. More ravens and less creepspread in the game is a good thing in the current state of the game imo.
Agreed...
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After testing again, I have the following thought:
1. The creep change affects early and mid game as much as late game. It is now much harder in the early game to spread creep.
2. The raven change does give me the feeling of a more mobile raven but it seems like raven is still doing nothing if the zerg is not going mass broodlord/corruptor and if it's super late-game.
3. Infestor, especially, infested terran + chain fungal are still denying raven like crazy.
Therefore, I propose the following changes which I think it will be beneficial to all matchups. This will solve the problem of TvZ and also solve the problem of PvZ. In PvZ, protoss has advantages in the early-to-mid game due to powerful timing attack and all-ins with stalker and immortal. But Zerg has advantages in the late-game due to powerful composition of broodlord/corruptor/infestor. Fungal is strong in this late-game scenario and infested terran is just a game-breaking spell adding to broodlord and fungal. So, I think the following changes to infested terran is good for TvZ and PvZ.
Infestor
----Infested Terran spell cast range reduced to 7, down from 9
----Infested Terran Egg hatch time increased to 10, up from 5
----Infested Terran damage reduced to 6, down from 8. The attack upgrade bonus is not changed.
With these changes to infestor, raven will be more viable and late-game PvZ will not be so gloomy.
However, Protoss has powerful mid-game timing pushes and all-ins, especially the immortal push. Therefore, immortal's range buff should be revert.
Immortal
----Attack range reduced to 5, down from 6.
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What I envision is that when ur zerg neighbour starts to throw down infested terrans, to combat ur vikings (versus his BL/infestor pack) u friggin HSM his infested terrans when they are bunching up. Their movement speed is low, that the HSM will blow up giving some useful AoE dmg.
What dya guys think of that? (Terrans only need reply here...)
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On August 10 2012 01:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:28 m0ck wrote:On August 10 2012 01:02 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:59 Tsubbi wrote:
feels like blizzard is once again 2 months behind with their patching, basically only may was heavily zerg favored in korea right after the patch, since then the matchups is even slightly in favor of terran in korea while protoss silently wins everything
also wcs and wcg korea which are the most recent results are basically a zerg graveyard, really hope they rethink the creep nerf There's more to this game than who wins a given tournament. What's important is whether the matchups are interesting, fair, and reward skill. Creep in its current form makes the matchups boring, is too easy for good Zergs to execute, and can't be controlled by Terran players to any significant degree. This means that less decision making takes place, which is boring. The idea that every game needs to be a 5 base 200/200 ball fighting another 200/200 ball is dumb. If you have the ability to get to that stage of the game, fine, but you should need to react and play dynamically to get there, not just execute the same build every single game (6 Queen TvZ, 3Hatch Gasless Stephano style PvZ). It's not a matter of whether it's balanced. Like Naniwa said, it's too simplistic for a competitive RTS game, which means it's uninspired and boring design. Just because everyone is winning roughly half the time doesn't mean a lot of situations aren't complete coinflips. Hell, even competitive coinflipping would have a roughly 50% win rate for heads and tails. Doesn't mean it would reward skill or be at all interesting. I agree that you have to play reactive and dynamically, but your example of a build that isn't dynamic and reactive is rather stupid. Stephanos opening in ZvP is exactly reactive.The zerg player has to read his opponent and react to what he sees or he dies. Which is why so few are able to pull it off and no one can do it as well as him. To say that it is one build is simpleminded. It's an opening build with many pathways - including mutas. Remember naniwa saying "forge first or die trying"? The problem with Stephano's style is that you could literally tell the Protoss player about it at the 5 minute mark and there would be exactly nothing he can do to take advantage of it.
Exactly. When I offrace as Protoss, you know exactly what the Zerg is doing yet nothing you can do will change the outcome. This makes it so Zergs don't need to worry about early game attacks because basic scouting denies them, and they can go about their merry way.
When I play Protoss or Terran, I do my very best to deny and/or distort information whenever possible. This makes the game more interesting and to me represents part of the strategy of an RTS game. Zerg, however, has no need to do this and with very fast overlords and queens with longer range, early game strategies aren't even a threat.
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On August 10 2012 01:36 larse wrote:
Infestor
----Infested Terran spell cast range reduced to 7, down from 9
----Infested Terran Egg hatch time increased to 10, up from 5
----Infested Terran damage reduced to 6, down from 8. The attack upgrade bonus is not changed.
Lol, is that all?
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On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven
1 - TvT Would be ruined. Tank lines would be broken making the tank a very useless unit
2 - I would reduce the time to be able to research HSM or make the regen rate of the Raven greater.
as @ 100 Energy 250 Damage is just unimaginable.
3 - Just make less upgrades for it, the raven is the same as an infestor.
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On August 10 2012 01:36 SoniC_eu wrote:
What I envision is that when ur zerg neighbour starts to throw down infested terrans, to combat ur vikings (versus his BL/infestor pack) u friggin HSM his infested terrans when they are bunching up. Their movement speed is low, that the HSM will blow up giving some useful AoE dmg.
What dya guys think of that? (Terrans only need reply here...)
I think that If i actually manage to get to the point where I have a good raven count with HSM available there is no way i'm going to trade the hardest to get spell for the easiest.
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On August 10 2012 01:35 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:18 Thurken wrote:On August 10 2012 00:58 Huragius wrote:On August 10 2012 00:54 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2012 00:48 Darkthorn wrote:On August 10 2012 00:43 Yorbon wrote:On August 10 2012 00:41 Darkthorn wrote:
Are we playing the same game? Us and Blizzard? Because last time I checked at the highest level lately there's barely been any zerg representation at tournaments...look at gsl and osl if you talk about highest levels...in osl round of 16 there's ONLY 2 fucking zergs...
I don't mean they should make some "balance" changes, but don't bullshit us with at highest level because there is where zergs actually struggle more than at middletier players etc...so ye GET YOUR DAMN FACTS STRAIGHT BLIZZARD. Am i watching the same game as you are? You probably aren't given in last MLG top 4 were 3 tosses and 1 terran...a terran won assembly and top 4 were 2 terrans 1 toss 1 zerg...there's 2 zergs out of 16 players in OSL round of 16...and now don't tell me that a zerg won NASL because that happened cause of shitty NASL mappool, which favored zerg heavily against the other 2 races. Feel free to name the top Zergs that were actually at the MLG Arena. Same with Assembly. Let the guy cry out. He has a lot of zergy emotions caged inside. He could have also add that since DRG's win, there have been 3 zergs out of the 16 players from the last two ro8. (Or 6 out of the 32 players from the last two ro16 if you prefer). Saying that zerg is currently imba at the highest level is plain wrong but i'm not going to go into that debate since blizzard have the same conclusion. Blizzard is going in the right direction. More ravens and less creepspread in the game is a good thing in the current state of the game imo. Agreed...
This isn't really a strong argument. In my opinion, the best players play Terran. If we have players of MMA, MVP or MKP's caliber switch to Zerg, we would see many more Zergs in the ro8, if not the finals. Zergs are doing extremely well, but imagine if the best players started playing Zerg in tournaments, not just on ladder (Which each of these players does with the exact same MMR on KR server)
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On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that.
A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor.
Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army.
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On August 10 2012 01:39 Cylindrical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven 1 - TvT Would be ruined. Tank lines would be broken making the tank a very useless unit 2 - I would reduce the time to be able to research HSM or make the regen rate of the Raven greater. as @ 100 Energy 250 Damage is just unimaginable. 3 - Just make less upgrades for it, the raven is the same as an infestor.
Really?
1) Because in HoTs, they actually are creating a unit to quote "break up tank lines in TvT". So why not solve it with the Raven?
2) You act as if 250 damage is a certain thing. This is not fungal, or an undodgeable spell if cast correctly. I have trouble even coming up with a handful of units that can't dodge an HSM with a simple right click to the opposite side of the map.
3) Actually, you are wrong here as well. The Raven costs 100/200. The Infestor costs 100/150, so the Raven indeed costs more for much, much less as a spellcaster. The build time for the Raven is also longer, nor does it have an upgrade that increases starting energy, nor can it be built from a standard building (the hatch); a Raven requires a Starport with a tech lab.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Infestor
----Infested Terran spell cast range reduced to 7, down from 9
----Infested Terran Egg hatch time increased to 10, up from 5
----Infested Terran damage reduced to 6, down from 8. The attack upgrade bonus is not changed.
You want make infestor unusable like raven now? Why you want to over-nerf SO MUCH ?
One of these changes will be okay, or all three changes, but with a lot smaller effect (range to 8 from 9, not to 7. Hatch time to 6 instead to 10. Damage reducing to 7 instead to 6.) It should be small nerf, not OVER-naerf, that everyone want to.
Guys, Zergs currently are between OP and UP race, you must understand it. Doing so big nerfs like you want can cause a lot problems and ruin balance
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On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven
Why is everyone asking for a HSM's range increase ? I would rather have a fungal/storm/snipe range decrease, fuck these overpowered casters :D
Hey coward, wanna use your imba spell ? Come closer if you dare !
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On August 10 2012 01:47 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven Why is everyone asking for a HSM's range increase ? I would rather have a fungal/storm/snipe range decrease, fuck these overpowered casters :D Hey coward, wanna use your imba spell ? Come closer if you dare !
This is true. The range for fungal growth and infested Terrans is pretty crazy, especially considering an Infestor has invisibility with the burrow and the ability to cast Infested Terrans while invisible (burrowed)
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No changes needed. TvZ is balanced.
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On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that. A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor. Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army.
I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings...
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I can't believe i'm gonna post on a balance thread, but here's how I feel.
I agree that late game tvz might be hard on the T side, but the raven is kind of strong i think. It's not used enough that we can call that an issue, but seeker missile just completely destroys corrupters with viking support. If a terran mechs and is able to get his side of the map, mass thor / raven / viking beats pretty much anything that zerg has.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'd like to see seeker missile splash on your own unit, so that you can just spam it mindlessly
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On August 10 2012 01:45 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:39 Cylindrical wrote:On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven 1 - TvT Would be ruined. Tank lines would be broken making the tank a very useless unit 2 - I would reduce the time to be able to research HSM or make the regen rate of the Raven greater. as @ 100 Energy 250 Damage is just unimaginable. 3 - Just make less upgrades for it, the raven is the same as an infestor. Really? 1) Because in HoTs, they actually are creating a unit to quote "break up tank lines in TvT". So why not solve it with the Raven? 2) You act as if 250 damage is a certain thing. This is not fungal, or an undodgeable spell if cast correctly. I have trouble even coming up with a handful of units that can't dodge an HSM with a simple right click to the opposite side of the map. 3) Actually, you are wrong here as well. The Raven costs 100/200. The Infestor costs 100/150, so the Raven indeed costs more for much, much less as a spellcaster. The build time for the Raven is also longer, nor does it have an upgrade that increases starting energy, nor can it be built from a standard building (the hatch); a Raven requires a Starport with a tech lab.
1) Very true, but that unit isnt a caster and can still do damage elsewhere.
2) They dont have to cast HSM either, a couple PDDs would help the army out as well.
3) Ah yes, its juhst a fact that the raven costs way too much and time for what it does.
inefficiency at its finest.
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Fungal is a terrible spell to start off with.
Almost everything about it is annoying or boring. It negates opposition micro, it takes medium amounts of damage but is usually mass casted.
An exciting spell would be the exact opposite: allow opponent to defend/react, does heavy damage but is balanced in a way that it's less frequently cast.
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On August 10 2012 01:51 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:42 Plansix wrote:On August 10 2012 01:29 zmansman17 wrote:On August 09 2012 22:19 Noocta wrote:On August 09 2012 22:15 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2012 21:30 ArcadeR wrote:
Like the 20% overall nerf for Creep and the Buff on the Raven...but I honestly don't think the Raven change will do much to increase the usage of Raven/Seeker-Hit and Runs cause High-lvl zergs are used to spread their (Air)-Forces well enough and Fungle will still hit instantly (not as if this is a bad thing). But who I am to judge about this things ^^?
Also I honestly think the Creep shouldn't disappear faster after Tumor/Overlord Kill cause its just a fault to not check for blocks like this and the creep-blob of the Overlord doesn't last "that long" if you check for an ovi with 2-3 marines when you start building the new CC for that Position. The Point is that T build the CC in his base and can already check for the Overlord before it hovers over...so its not that big Deal to snipe the block in Time... omg I have to sleep, horrible grammar >.> PDD is the more valuable ability against late game zerg IMO. It reduces corruptor damage, which allows vikings to do one way damage until the PPD runs out. That add in with detection, it could be used to zone out the zerg. The speed increase is interesting and I want to see how it works with the auto turret. Although the turret does not scale with upgrades, it can still kill drones and probes. Plus, when well placed, they are tanky enough to tie up zerglings for a lot period of time. With this speed boost, it is more likely to get in and out quickly. This could allow terrans to pressure a zerg without eating up 10 supply like they are normally forced to do with drops. Plus the cost of losing a raven is less than a full medivac of marines. PDD is less and less valuable because zergs use more and more Infested terrans against viking to protect Broodlords sadly. Yes it's not like PDD gives Terran any impunity in the air battle. Just one fungal and some well-placed Infested Terrans and Zerg dominates both the air and ground battles. This still doesn't change that. A well spread out group of vikings cannot be caught with one fungle and spreading them out before receiving the slow moving zerg army is critical. Most zergs rely on coorruptors to deal out damage to spread vikings along with fungles. The last few professional games I have seen where the two super late game armies clashed, the battles have been very close when the vikings were properly spread out. A well placed PDD or two could turn the tide in the terrans favor. Also the change will make the raven move the same speed as a medivac. For late game harassment, it could be used with it's turret ability. Since it moves at the same speed, but costs less than a full medivac and take less supply, it could free terrans up to use that supply for other things. It could also increase terrans ability to harrass with drops, taking advantage of the slow moving zerg super army. I'm glad you feel that way but as a rank 1 master terran I still spread vikings like shit. And note that even one bad spread in any one engagement and guess what, you just lost the game. And as a 1520 Protoss and 1450 Zerg, I don't think I'm that bad overall where I just suck at Terran and can't spread vikings...
I am confused, you have a weak point in the match up and need to work on speading your vikings, what is the issue? Why are you asking for Blizzard to make it so you can not spread your vikings and still win games at your skill level? Just think how much better you would do if you spread out your vikings.
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On August 10 2012 01:45 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 01:39 Cylindrical wrote:On August 10 2012 01:34 zmansman17 wrote:
Necessary Changes from Blizzard for the Raven to actually make a difference:
1) Increase Range of HSM to that of fungal, or more than fungal.
2) Reduce energy cost of HSM
3) Reduce the gas cost of the Raven 1 - TvT Would be ruined. Tank lines would be broken making the tank a very useless unit 2 - I would reduce the time to be able to research HSM or make the regen rate of the Raven greater. as @ 100 Energy 250 Damage is just unimaginable. 3 - Just make less upgrades for it, the raven is the same as an infestor. Really? 1) Because in HoTs, they actually are creating a unit to quote "break up tank lines in TvT". So why not solve it with the Raven? 2) You act as if 250 damage is a certain thing. This is not fungal, or an undodgeable spell if cast correctly. I have trouble even coming up with a handful of units that can't dodge an HSM with a simple right click to the opposite side of the map. 3) Actually, you are wrong here as well. The Raven costs 100/200. The Infestor costs 100/150, so the Raven indeed costs more for much, much less as a spellcaster. The build time for the Raven is also longer, nor does it have an upgrade that increases starting energy, nor can it be built from a standard building (the hatch); a Raven requires a Starport with a tech lab.
Hate to nitpick, but yes it does. It's called Corvid Reactor (I didn't even have to look that up :D)
Honestly i'd be happy with the raven if they would just make autoturrets placeable on top of units and have the turrets push the units out of the way (including enemy, like a forcefield). The only caveat would be that it can't push units on hold position.
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EPT
