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On August 10 2012 03:43 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:47 ProfSc wrote:
The real issue, from my perspective, in the TvZ MU, is a) What avilo has already stated regarding raven HSM not being cost-effective, and b) Unit movement.
In TvZ, 2/3 of the generally viable options rely heavily on units that clump up due to pathing. Both marine-tank and pure bio have this problem. Even mech, which moves as a ball, has this problem. If the pathing were more linear/dynamic, then 12 infestors wouldn't be so incredibly cost-efficient. The other issue is how air units stack so much, which is why you need to be much more careful with ravens than with infestors.
On the other hand, since infestors are so big, their clumping isn't nearly as bad, so the two "splash" options that terran has other than the extremely cost-inefficient HSM—tanks and EMP—don't get the money hits that fungal is apt to get. Infestors, being the easiest mid-tier spellcaster to micro due to their size and comparatively quick movement speed, make them one of the cost-efficient units in the entire game.
I'm not sure how blizzard would go about balancing fungal, but if they are reluctant to fix the pathing, they should at least make it so that fungal can't target air units. Either or would be sufficient in terms of balance. Blizzard should make it so that a) Units don't clump as much and therefore make it easier to spread them further or b) Allow terrans to focus on microing the ground army while the vikings engage BLs/corruptors without fear of losing the viking fleet to fungals. Infestors are hardly the easiest to micro. Ghosts and HTs are waaaaaaaay easier. Also I don't know why you're complaining that HSM is cost-inefficient. That's how the game works. As you go up the tech tree units generally get more costly and more efficient (powerful) but less cost-efficient than lower tier units. Compare a marine to a broodlord for example. And as you can get potentially infinite HSMs from a raven it's not actually that cost-inefficient? There's so much random stating of facts in this thread to make it seem like zerg is OP. Overlords can drop creep to block potential expansion? omg so OP! That's like saying "omg terran can turn command centres into planetary fortresses! so op!". The races just work in different ways.
LMAO. Stopped reading at Infestors being harder to use than Ghosts and Temps.
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WHY.... why why why why is the Raven so not cost efficient?
Do commentators ever go WOOOOWWW we might se RAVENS out to play? Nah.. they don't ... because raven's suck compared to all the other stuff terran can build...
Imagine having a few ravens in the unit combo... to mix it up... with HSM being faster but lower dmg.... zerg would have to micro better.. instead of just 1-a with lings banelings, infestor fungal and mutas...
There is a problem in the game, when ravens never gets build... and for a reason, but it's just not worth it. Imagine if infestors lost fungal growth as a spell, nobody would build em.... does this mean zerg can do nothing against T? Nah... just alot weaker..
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On August 10 2012 02:21 Ryps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:21 etofok wrote:
A corrupter still faster than raven, so And a flying factory still faster than an overlord, whats your point ?
a flying factory cannot attack an overlord. comparing apples to oranges bro.
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On August 09 2012 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:
the highest level of tvz? I think we need to separate the stats for taeja vs z and other terrans vs z lol :O
sounds interesting o,o
Pls start streaming some again Kawaii ^_^
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On August 10 2012 02:30 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Its not easy, but I am terrible at blink micro. Yet I don't expect Blizzard to make the game easier when I am forced to try to do so in pvp. And once I get good at it, I am sure there is a whole mass of players I smash right through who don't know how to deal with it. Playing at 300 APM shouldn't be the answer for zerg A-move, because there'll be a skill mismatch of the players all the way up to progamer level if that's the case. No one is asking for Blizzard to make the game easier (except for people who liked the queen change), but rather to make it harder for zergs to A-move.
Agreed here.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:33 bellsNkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 12:08 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 10:08 bellsNkeys wrote:On August 09 2012 08:56 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 07:52 bellsNkeys wrote:On August 09 2012 06:21 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 06:18 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:12 Whitewing wrote:On August 09 2012 06:08 ragz_gt wrote:On August 09 2012 06:03 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
*rolls eyes* Are you seriously arguing that trading 20 marines for 10 ghosts to take out all of your opponents infestors is a bad deal for you, especially since, if you don't take out those infestors, they'll just kill your 20 marines easily anyway. No, I'm saying: Against a infestorless (especially roach based) army, ghost is pretty useless. Zerg can tech switch alot faster than Terran can. If Terran makes too many ghost compare to infestor, Zerg can just max out on roach and GG. Zerg don't have a problem of "making too many infestor", so they can arbitrary shift the infestor/ghost balance. This is compounded because Zerg can make 20 infestors at once, Terran can't make 20 ghost at once. It's like Colosus / Viking balance, except if P have 10 Robo bay built already. Okay, you try a max roach army against a marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition with 10-20 ghosts mixed in and see how that goes for you, especially since you have no roach attack upgrades. Hell, even give the terran supply tied up in some vikings, you'll get rolled hilariously easily. You're just making things up at this point, have you ever actually seen a high level zerg player switch to mass roach in the late game? Not pure roach, just the infestor supply worth of roach (or ultra, BL, or anything not infestor). Have you tried to engage a maxed out zerg army without infestor when you have a dozen ghost? It's literally like 1/3 of your supply just disappeared before engaging. Roaches aren't even a consideration, they're just BAD. And you're just making shit up at this point, I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Until you can figure out that 12 ghosts (24 supply) is not 1/3 of your army supply (if your army is a whopping 72 supply total, you've got other problems besides composition), trying to discuss anything with you is a waste of time. It kind of annoys me that ever since Zerg players found out the infestor was an amazing unit, all of a sudden everything else is bad. And when Terran found out that mass ghost late game TvZ was good it gets nerfed to hell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked Zerg players have won numerous tournaments and GSLs with muta/ling/bling in ZvT and there have been no significant Terran buff nor Zerg nerfs that affect the muta/ling/bling composition. My main issue with ghosts is that they're more situational whereas Z and P can blindly make infestors and sentries/HTs and it will always help them. The good thing is that Blizzard at least tried to give the Raven that role as well, but failed pretty hard at it. Terran players have gotten much better at defeating and defending muta/ling/bling play, and again, that's not an end-game composition, it's a mid-game strategy. If you're stuck in ling/bling/muta while terran is on a late game economy/tech level with good upgrades, you just lose. Infestors are straight up superior against terran in the mid-game for the most part, and are essential late game, because without them in your composition, you just straight up lose to terran end-game. Ghosts are designed to fit into the race. They are a purely support unit designed to negate essential units from other races so that the rest of the superior terran force can crush an enemy missing a required unit. The units fill different roles: Infestors are a lockdown/damage dealing/harass unit, high templar are a damage dealing/ weak caster negator, and ghosts are an excellent caster negater/harass unit. I agree that Terran players have adapted against muta/ling/bling play, but same argument applies that pure marine-tank is a mid-game composition as well. I'd have to disagree that HTs are weak caster negators. Feedback is very powerful but toss would obviously rather use storms. Doesn't make them necessarily weak against casters. And I don't buy that ghosts are just for support and were created purposely to negate other spellcasters. There was nobody saying that until the snipe nerf was applied. It was more of an excuse to make the nerf acceptable, but imo is pure bullshit. ... Um, right, you don't stick with pure marine tank for lategame TvZ, you add in marauders, ravens, vikings and ghosts, and often some thors too. Not sure how that is relevant. Feedback is pretty decent, but it's shorter range than ghost abilities and as a single target spell, will never be as good at shutting down casters as an EMP. The problem that makes them bad at it, is that they are pretty much the slowest unit in the game, which makes controlling against enemy casters pretty damn hard. Doable, but hard. And yeah, just look at what the unit does, ghosts are anti-caster units. Use them that way. Terran wins if the enemy doesn't have casters and you you play well, so make the unit that takes away their casters. It's relevant because you're saying muta/ling/bling is not an end-game composition and I'm saying pure marine-tank isn't either. Both races transition out of that stage so I don't see what exactly the debate is? You make it sound as if that's a good enough excuse to be forced into making infestors. Plus it's not like we never see muta/ling play anymore so it's obviously still viable. I think that's a fair enough argument.
But why are you saying it? I don't remember saying terrans stay on marine/tank or are supposed to, I'm the one saying you should add ghosts in late game. Seems a really silly thing to add. I've got absolutely no idea where you are going with this. Zerg needs infestors late game, terran should add ghosts to negate infestors late game.
Muta/ling play has gone from the standard to being extremely map dependent, and we never see the heavy muta flocks anymore, it's almost always just a brief transition.
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Making HSM 20 % speed increase, or halving energy costs... effectively brings the raven back in the game in all MU's..
Because it forces zerg to stop a-move a infestor,ling, bling army and think for a second 
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In my opinion the patch won´t fix the problems only the impacts. I mean what does it matter if the creep spread is slower, queens can still defend it and hellions are still useless and the creep is like 1 minute later at your base. Furthermore the zerg can still get the eco he wants with the queens and you can´t do anything about it as terran.
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I think the speed of the raven will help in some isolated situations, but i think there are 2 key points for HSM:
The obvious one is the low range that makes FG/ feedbak/ EMP be super efective.
The second problem that i hate even more, is that it takes FOREVER to get a raven with HSM. Tech lab starport+60 sec raven build time+gathering enough energy = useless unit for like 2 min . You'd think you have auto t, but in late game they do like 4 dmg against 3 armour...
It's this super slow transition that i realy hate. Since one or 2 ravens can easily be FG, you need at least 4 or more to have a decent chance of using HSM.
So it's the energy cost that i think is the biggest problem, at least for TvZ. The fact that it needs 100 upgrades to be at it's best (when i say best...it's still meh...) is not helping either.
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Or what about having HSM without upgrade, remove the upgrade, and lower the energy cost....
but also lower the dmg and maybe some of the aoe a bit... how does that sound?
Or as I said, buff the speed of the HSM itself.. and lower energy and dmg...
Also... what's the point of even HAVING the raven as a unit in the Terran Army, if it never gets used properly??
Yea... use more ghosts people say... but what if I don't want to? What about having other options or other strategies?
It's nice to have more than 1 option to deal with a situation... so i Don't see why the raven cannot get some serious buffs
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HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle.
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I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but
With this speed buff in the Raven it isn't about the Raven being able to deal damage to the Zerg army directly but Terran being able to deal with the creep spread of Zerg making the army easier to deal with. Since the Raven now moves at the same speed as the Medivac it can keep up with the rest of the Terran army making the Terran army able to clear creep easier instead of having to wait for the Raven to catch up. So instead of the Terran player having to waste scans on clearing creep, because Raven are detectors, they can use the scans to locate the Zerg army and position themselves favorably allowing for better engagements. So instead of the Raven buff creating a situation where Ravens do massive damage to the Zerg army directly; it creates a situation where the Raven can help the Terran army deal more damage to the Zerg army by setting up favorable engagements
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On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle.
How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me....
Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly...
so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster..
All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now?
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On August 10 2012 04:27 flyingteapot wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but
With this speed buff in the Raven it isn't about the Raven being able to deal damage to the Zerg army directly but Terran being able to deal with the creep spread of Zerg making the army easier to deal with. Since the Raven now moves at the same speed as the Medivac it can keep up with the rest of the Terran army making the Terran army able to clear creep easier instead of having to wait for the Raven to catch up. So instead of the Terran player having to waste scans on clearing creep, because Raven are detectors, they can use the scans to locate the Zerg army and position themselves favorably allowing for better engagements. So instead of the Raven buff creating a situation where Ravens do massive damage to the Zerg army directly; it creates a situation where the Raven can help the Terran army deal more damage to the Zerg army by setting up favorable engagements
You still don't get Ravens this early, lol. The reason Terrans don't use Ravens to keep back creep has nothing to do with them being slow and everything to do with them being expensive, far along on the tech tree, and a production sink.
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On August 10 2012 04:27 flyingteapot wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but
With this speed buff in the Raven it isn't about the Raven being able to deal damage to the Zerg army directly but Terran being able to deal with the creep spread of Zerg making the army easier to deal with. Since the Raven now moves at the same speed as the Medivac it can keep up with the rest of the Terran army making the Terran army able to clear creep easier instead of having to wait for the Raven to catch up. So instead of the Terran player having to waste scans on clearing creep, because Raven are detectors, they can use the scans to locate the Zerg army and position themselves favorably allowing for better engagements. So instead of the Raven buff creating a situation where Ravens do massive damage to the Zerg army directly; it creates a situation where the Raven can help the Terran army deal more damage to the Zerg army by setting up favorable engagements
That was never really a problem since most good terran wont engage on creep at all and you'd have to wait for the creep to reside before pushing foward to clear more.
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On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now?
Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate.
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I feel that the raven speed change isn't enough. Infestors were nerfed from 2.5 to 2.25 and it made virtually no difference, and going the opposite way for the raven shouldn't either. I'd like to see something bolder, such as 2.75 (Banshee and Viking speed) 2.95 (Stalker speed) or 3,375 (Hydralisk on creep, stimmed Marines and Marauders)
This would allow Ravens to catch up to these key units they are supposed to work with or against. In comparison, the only unit affected by the change is Banelings without speed, Queens, Warp Prisms, Medivacs and uprooted Crawlers - five non combat units and a unit without an upgrade that comes into play long before Ravens do, and that they do not affect much.
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On August 10 2012 04:27 flyingteapot wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but
With this speed buff in the Raven it isn't about the Raven being able to deal damage to the Zerg army directly but Terran being able to deal with the creep spread of Zerg making the army easier to deal with. Since the Raven now moves at the same speed as the Medivac it can keep up with the rest of the Terran army making the Terran army able to clear creep easier instead of having to wait for the Raven to catch up. So instead of the Terran player having to waste scans on clearing creep, because Raven are detectors, they can use the scans to locate the Zerg army and position themselves favorably allowing for better engagements. So instead of the Raven buff creating a situation where Ravens do massive damage to the Zerg army directly; it creates a situation where the Raven can help the Terran army deal more damage to the Zerg army by setting up favorable engagements
So the Raven is essentially a tier 3 overlord with massive costs that can also detect hidden?
Yeah... that's nice.
Raven has 3 offensive abilities, i think the game could use some fresh breath of air for using those.. dont u think?
I dont think the raven will be used more just becasue its faster now
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On August 10 2012 04:34 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 04:29 MasterFischer wrote:On August 10 2012 04:26 Rowrin wrote:
HSM is really just a gimmick imo. PDD and auto-turrets are the only useful spells on the raven since there are other, better and more cost effecient options for dealing with proposed scenarios with HSM.
-Yeah you can use them on Corruptor/Broodlord clumps, but you are almost always better off having fewer ravens, more vikings and just using PDD.
-Yeah you can use them on balls of roaches, but it is easier, and cheaper to just add more tanks.
-and you are never going to land a seeker missle on an infestor vs a zerg who isn't retarded, so you are better off getting ghosts.
imo, you cant really buff seekermissle's range without creating issues tvp where a few solid missles could level toss's deathball, and its damage is already the highest aoe splash in the game. Any buff to energy regen also means more PDD in TvP. Any buff to auto turrets and we are going to see a lot of cute early expo 2 port mass raven all ins.
I really dont think the speed buff will do much of anything honestly. Remember when blizzard buffed battlecruiser speeds and everyone was so exited, then still rarely used them, if at all, outside of tvt?
I'm pretty sure as testing goes forward bliz might change either the build time or cost (not both without risking tons or early mass raven all ins), unless they do decide to change seekermissle. How is this different from the infestor or the High templar? tell me.... Infestors can annihilate the entire Terran Army if they are solid and good.... psi storm can eliminate everything if placed correctly... so what's wrong with having HSM being somewhat the same for ravens? It's Terrans tier 3 spellcaster.. All HSM buff will do, is require the other player to have better micro... if ur getting hit by hsm, then you just have to play better... isn't that how the situation is with fungal and psi storm now? Because terran has been doing fine for the most part without having the same whole-army-wiping capabilities. If you were to give terran that, you'd have to redesign most of the rest of terran to compensate.
But Terran HAVENT been doing fine though.. that's the point isnt it? TvZ is atrocious other than at top korea level micro and macro and even there... not many T make it to finals in tourneys etc..
But again my question stands... why have a unit like the raven in the game, if its hardly ever used? Doesnt that go against the unit and game design.. on a more general level ? ,,
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