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On August 12 2012 02:01 AdrianHealey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 23:04 plogamer wrote:On August 11 2012 22:56 AdrianHealey wrote:On August 11 2012 22:50 Qikz wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units  Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. It shouldn't be as bad when it comes down to HoTS due to the way hydras are getting a huge movement buff. Also spores and corrupters are pretty damned good at anti air. You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. Imagine how it feels when Terrans do drastic techswitches where your corruptors are useless? Oh wait, that never happens. I know how it feels when Protoss does tech switches and you have 10/15 corruptors flying around, being utterly useless.
That doesn't happen either. BL/Infestor/Corruptor is good against any Protoss composition. By the time you have 15 Corruptors, you should be at Greater Spire tech anyway. This isn't 2011. There is no Colossi/Void Ray deathball against Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. It's always fast third into 3 Colossus push which is held by Spines to delay until Broods, and from then you pretty much never have too many Corruptors/BLs/Infestors.
What exactly are 15 Corruptors doing in your army to begin with unless you're already going BLs? What is the Protoss going to switch into?
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On August 12 2012 02:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:01 AdrianHealey wrote:On August 11 2012 23:04 plogamer wrote:On August 11 2012 22:56 AdrianHealey wrote:On August 11 2012 22:50 Qikz wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. It shouldn't be as bad when it comes down to HoTS due to the way hydras are getting a huge movement buff. Also spores and corrupters are pretty damned good at anti air. You know how it feels when you make a bunch of vikings and the zerg techswitches to ultra's? How useless those vikings feel? Imagine that you can not land them. Imagine how it feels when Terrans do drastic techswitches where your corruptors are useless? Oh wait, that never happens. I know how it feels when Protoss does tech switches and you have 10/15 corruptors flying around, being utterly useless. That doesn't happen either. BL/Infestor/Corruptor is good against any Protoss composition. By the time you have 15 Corruptors, you should be at Greater Spire tech anyway. This isn't 2011. There is no Colossi/Void Ray deathball against Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. It's always fast third into 3 Colossus push which is held by Spines to delay until Broods, and from then you pretty much never have too many Corruptors/BLs/Infestors. What exactly are 15 Corruptors doing in your army to begin with unless you're already going BLs? What is the Protoss going to switch into?
Protoss vs. BLs is like Zerg vs. Colossus Deathball but Corruptors don't exist.
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Why do they test it on antiga though, that map is terrible.
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what if tumor took physical space so the way you spread it matters?
edit: wait no, that's retarded.
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On August 12 2012 04:31 Rk0 wrote:
Why do they test it on antiga though, that map is terrible.
Because it has proved so far to be the map where zerg's creep spread can really get out of control.
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Raven buff is fine I guess, they're a super strong unit vs zerg in lategame but they take ages to build and collect energy, if terran had a buff to make this lategame transition come a bit quicker and smoother it'd be a much better buff I think.
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On August 11 2012 07:27 4Servy wrote:
Raven vs lategame zerg is like buying a masserati for a suicide bomber.
Interesting analogy.
However, there's no guarantee it will even serve its purpose as a "suicide bomber".
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On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far.
How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified.
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On August 11 2012 23:17 SaYProPlz wrote:
I'm pretty sure many people should think that Protoss anti-air is weaker than Zerg. Just because Zerg has less anti-air doesn't mean it's less viable.
Z:
Queen - Transfuse good, decent ROF (rate of fire)
Hydralisk - High ROF
Muta - Massed is hard to deal with, fast
Corruptor - combined with muta is very hard to beat, durable
Fungal Growth - Kind of the reason why Zerg AA is very strong - chain fungals etc.
Infested Terran - see terran section
P:
Sentry - Lol.
Stalker - Low ROF, horrible upgrade scale
Storm - Magic box may help
Archon - Low range
Phoenix - Too ineffective against armor.
Void Ray - Expensive, slow
Carrier - Derp.
Mothership - Herp.
T: Marines, 'nuff said.
IDK what others think, this is what I see.
It's nice to see that you simplify Terran to the Marine unit. I'm sure all the best players in the world need only make Marines to win, and I guess the same applies for everyone else as well.
I welcome you to play Terran. I play all races at Rank 1-3 Master, and Terran is By Far the Hardest.
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On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified.
By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa
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On August 11 2012 23:29 sCCrooked wrote:
Some of these suggestions are beyond overpowered. Why don't we just skip all this BS and say what everyone is REALLY thinking... that the infestor is a pretty badly-designed unit that discourages micro (ff too) and Blizz should've just kept the freaking defiler which was very powerful and very key, but not OP or un-breakable by any means.
I'd rather have plague with a bigger AoE and super-strong Damage-over-Time than fungal personally (also plague lasts a helluva lot longer).
I agree here.
At the end of the day, the Infestor is just a poorly designed unit. Give Zerg more options to work with (Which HOTS might do), and eliminate this unit that denies any micro, can be repeatedly cast and has a huge AoE.
I would rather just see the Defiler remade in sc2. I don't understand why they feel the need to create separate units, which have elements of their predecessors, but are re-made into inferior versions.
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On August 11 2012 01:26 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 01:21 TheDwf wrote:On August 11 2012 01:15 Aurrora wrote:
I don't go for my fast 3 base. I stick on 2 base for much longer. I only make 2 defensive queens, I make a spine, and I make a zergling wall at the top of my ramp so they can't run by into my main. I get my gas earlier but with 2 geysers instead of 3. And it is the threat of helion run by that is making me make the precautions. There's no reason to invest in a third base if the terran is going for banshee, which is very common after reactor helion. Or mass helion can cancel the third also. So i take my third hatchery in my base. 1. Macro build ≠ zero defence. Because you had to make a Spine and some Zerglings did not mean this was not a macro build. 2. Thanks to Blizzard being absolutely clueless, you can now go third without any Zerglings or Spines anyway. Hellions no longer force units or a Spine. Lol what level do you play at? You do know we are talking about reactor helion expand right? Do you not understand how fast helions melt drones? The reason I can't go for a third base and instead do what I said in the above post is because the helions come out MUCH faster. The reason I can take a third base while being on 6 queens (4 for defense) is because your helions come MUCH later when doing a 1 rax expand into reactor helion and I just spent 600 minerals into defense. If you trade helions for drones, you're in a really good spot. You may have lost 400 minerals of your army, but I now just lost 400 minerals of drones. That is huge, it hurts me much more than it hurts you because I have to remake those drones while you have a much better economoy than zerg. That is why I can't go for a fast 3rd base and stay only on queens and slow lings (not enough queens are out fast enough and slow lings don't do much against helions).
400 minerals = 400 minerals yes, but trading helions for drones is not efficient for Terran. If you scout that terran took his natural and lost his initial 4-6 helions early in the game, you know there is no possible followup for another 3-4 minutes so you're free to drone and don't have to make a single ling or spine for quite some time. 4-6 helions to Terran is much more important than 8-12 drones to Zerg at that point in the game. There's a reason every high level Terran player advises that not losing the early helions is priority.
So in short, you're wrong. You losing drones does not hurt you more than it hurts Terran losing early helions unless you skimp on defense completely and lose 20+ drones to 4 helions.
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On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa
I love how, in 2 years, blizzard did nothing to make hydras an option in any match-up. Just don't understand the reason behind killing the unit.
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On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa
Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out response...
You do realize that this game is not simple enough to even list off AA units and what they counter, which you barely did.
A counter to carriers may be just a shit ton of zerglings, which run passed and eliminate the Protoss player. You can't just make a simple enumerable list of units, although even if you did do that, I think the Zerg has Excellent AA. I think the idea of AA requires a more holistic understanding of the game conceptually.
Considering queens, the transfuse ability, the best late game scouting (vastly spread creep, changelings, overseers), Zerg can really just produce whichever unit is needed to counter the opposing player. And all of these counters are produced from the same building (no added infrastructure is needed aside from 1 of the tech buildings). For these reasons, Zerg, in my opinion, has Excellent AA.
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On August 12 2012 05:51 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa I love how, in 2 years, blizzard did nothing to make hydras an option in any match-up. Just don't understand the reason behind killing the unit.
Blizzard are incompetent. I thought this was known. If not, the queen buff should be hint enough.
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On August 12 2012 05:52 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out response... You do realize that this game is not simple enough to even list off AA units and what they counter, which you barely did. A counter to carriers may be just a shit ton of zerglings, which run passed and eliminate the Protoss player. You can't just make a simple enumerable list of units, although even if you did do that, I think the Zerg has Excellent AA. I think the idea of AA requires a more holistic understanding of the game conceptually. Considering queens, the transfuse ability, the best late game scouting (vastly spread creep, changelings, overseers), Zerg can really just produce whichever unit is needed to counter the opposing player. And all of these counters are produced from the same building (no added infrastructure is needed aside from 1 of the tech buildings). For these reasons, Zerg, in my opinion, has Excellent AA.
Mutas cost 100/100 and have less DPS than a marine
Corruptors cost 150/100 have equal DPS of a marine, and if they're attacking massive they do the same DPS of a marine with stim
Queens cost 150 mins and are countered by ghosts (emp + snipe are huge) and tanks are good. Same with HSM.
Hydras: lol
Spores: Barely mobile, cheap + amazing AA though
Infestors: The only reason that we can survive against lategame air.
Just my thoughts!
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watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy
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On August 12 2012 09:21 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
watch teaja closely, terrans lategame strength is .. mules = unlimited macro. no zerg nerf required, just adjust your strategy. its not like teaja has insane micro, his main strength is macro+strategy
Oh shut up. None of the games Taeja has played against Zerg have been anywhere near standard. Most of them have been the Zerg failing at metagaming him or Baneling Busting. If you try to 4CC on ladder you're going to get smashed.
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On August 12 2012 09:16 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:52 zmansman17 wrote:On August 12 2012 05:46 Msr wrote:On August 12 2012 05:44 zmansman17 wrote:On August 11 2012 22:46 Assirra wrote:On August 11 2012 21:17 parkin wrote:On August 11 2012 21:12 Mahavishnu wrote:
How can an air unit with be frozen in the air? Anyways.. Eaxctly, fungal shouldnt apply to air units Yea, lets nerf the anti air of the race that already got the weakest of all by far. How does Zerg have the weakest anti-air. I'd like to see this statement justified. By far the worst aa, the hydra isn't even a unit. Corrupters are decent, just other races have better aa Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out response... You do realize that this game is not simple enough to even list off AA units and what they counter, which you barely did. A counter to carriers may be just a shit ton of zerglings, which run passed and eliminate the Protoss player. You can't just make a simple enumerable list of units, although even if you did do that, I think the Zerg has Excellent AA. I think the idea of AA requires a more holistic understanding of the game conceptually. Considering queens, the transfuse ability, the best late game scouting (vastly spread creep, changelings, overseers), Zerg can really just produce whichever unit is needed to counter the opposing player. And all of these counters are produced from the same building (no added infrastructure is needed aside from 1 of the tech buildings). For these reasons, Zerg, in my opinion, has Excellent AA. Mutas cost 100/100 and have less DPS than a marine Corruptors cost 150/100 have equal DPS of a marine, and if they're attacking massive they do the same DPS of a marine with stim Queens cost 150 mins and are countered by ghosts (emp + snipe are huge) and tanks are good. Same with HSM. Hydras: lol Spores: Barely mobile, cheap + amazing AA though Infestors: The only reason that we can survive against lategame air. Just my thoughts!
You need to think of these units in the context of the game. Sure mutas cost more than a marine and have less dps. They are still good AA because they are fast. Their dps doesnt matter at all, just that they snipe a few medivacs, harass mineral lines, and pick off stray marines without taking damage. That makes mutas more scary than marines.
Corruptors do cost a lot, but they have armor (-2 damage per armor against vikings!), lots of HP, and still have good dps, on top of that they can be morphed to BLs in the late game, so you never really "overproduce" them.
Queens are strong defensive AA with transfuse. Ghosts don't really counter them well when you think of the situation where queens are fighting. They sit behind infestors and BLs and transfuse the corruptors. The ghosts do not get close enough to emp or snipe.
Spores are not barely mobile. They are mobile and used defensively. They stop any banshee harass and can frequently take out medivacs if the terran doesnt realize it is there when units are dropped.
Infestors are not the only reason you survive to lategame. They are just the free ticket there. Other units can be used for AA, just the infestor is better in every regard. Infestors are not only your best AA, they are also one of your best anti-ground units as well. On top of that, they are really strong harassing units as well. You can't just talk about the bad points of your units and say they are bad. The corruptor is the best example of this again. Corruptors only need to fight vikings, and with a natural armor point, they tear through vikings. DPS of it might look bad if you take that in a vacuum, but corruptors are good.
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EPT
