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On August 06 2012 01:38 Rah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:27 jeeeeohn wrote:On August 05 2012 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 05 2012 14:21 Wegandi wrote:On August 05 2012 14:18 Zzoram wrote:
Where are the articles about American Football addiction and how 4 players die each year from football on average, never mind the thousands of concussions that can lead to permanent brain damage? It's only an addiction when they disagree with your personal behavior. If you play a physical sport like say, football, or baseball for 5+ hours everyday, you're lauded. If you study math or science for 10+ hours a day, you're lauded. God forbid, you were a unique individual with their own likes and desires instead of some tabula rasa for them to mold to their own ends. Never ceases, does it? ? Dumb comparison. Most people can't play physical sports as long for as long as someone can play a video game (and addicts can play all day), and someone who studies actually benefits from it? Wtf? Are we really comparing the productivity of studying math and science to that of playing a video game here? Let me know how that looks on a college application. TL is really out of touch it seems these days.. Thank you for writing this because if I had I'd probably have gotten a warning or temp ban. TL is insane nowadays, which is really just representative of the culture in general wherein wasting time has somehow evolved into productivity. Newsflash: headline: every pro player is addicted to the game and video games are not art and video games are not productive, at all, ever, not now or in the future. You are not a special snowflake for grinding Starcraft 2 into the soft bits of your brain twelve hours a day. Go read a book or something. It's truth that there's no difference between grinding SC2 12 hrs a day and any other game or MMO out there. There's a pro scene but that's a huge amount of time wasted for someone who never ends up being a pro. On the other hand pro SC2 does have a place in the world and the top few players will always be revered by some. For people who don't care about the game though they're more likely to form an opinion similar to CNN. I believe gaming is a bad habit more than it is an addiction. If you could go pro at biting your nails all day it would be comparable.
If anything, this shows you've been infected by some sort of pragmatism rather than that videogaming is 'bad.' I always laugh when people criticize gaming on the grounds of 'productivity' while failing to consider that productivity for productivity's sake is completely arbitrary, and is only something that people have argued for in the post-narrative era we live in. Seriously, productivity is probably the god of this generation (i.e. last 20 years). It's sad, and it's arbitrary, and I wish people would shut up about it.
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On August 06 2012 01:34 DiuLaSing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:33 Dundron2000 wrote:On August 06 2012 01:30 julianto wrote:
They got what they wanted: a lot of article views from a large demographic on the internet. They did this by putting up an article that would surely stir up that community. CNN couldn't give 2 shits about young males 10-25, its not their target audience. but those 10-25 young males will grow up...oh shit
I don't think you don't run a multi-million corporation on the premise that you are building a viewership that will be valuable in a decades time if you already have a core demographic with pressure to perform well within a short- and medium term time span.
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ANYONE UNHAPPY WITH THE ARTICLE AND TWEET/EMAIL THE AUTHOR DIRECTLY.
I won't post his email address, but his twitter is https://twitter.com/jdsutter and he has his email in one of his tweets. \
PLEASE DON'T EMBARRASS ESPORTS
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On August 06 2012 01:29 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:27 jeeeeohn wrote:On August 05 2012 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 05 2012 14:21 Wegandi wrote:On August 05 2012 14:18 Zzoram wrote:
Where are the articles about American Football addiction and how 4 players die each year from football on average, never mind the thousands of concussions that can lead to permanent brain damage? It's only an addiction when they disagree with your personal behavior. If you play a physical sport like say, football, or baseball for 5+ hours everyday, you're lauded. If you study math or science for 10+ hours a day, you're lauded. God forbid, you were a unique individual with their own likes and desires instead of some tabula rasa for them to mold to their own ends. Never ceases, does it? ? Dumb comparison. Most people can't play physical sports as long for as long as someone can play a video game (and addicts can play all day), and someone who studies actually benefits from it? Wtf? Are we really comparing the productivity of studying math and science to that of playing a video game here? Let me know how that looks on a college application. TL is really out of touch it seems these days.. Thank you for writing this because if I had I'd probably have gotten a warning or temp ban. TL is insane nowadays, which is really just representative of the culture in general wherein wasting time has somehow evolved into productivity. Newsflash: headline: every pro player is addicted to the game and video games are not art and video games are not productive, at all, ever, not now or in the future. You are not a special snowflake for grinding Starcraft 2 into the soft bits of your brain twelve hours a day. Go read a book or something. Aw, cute. Prove your shit. 1) What is art? 2) What is "productive"? 3) Do you know every pro player? 4) How do you define addiction? 5) How is making money playing video games wasteful?
1. A media through which the artist has a conversation with the recipient of the art. Usually these conversations cannot be had unless framed by a narrative or portrait or what have you. Video games are made by hundreds of people to be played with, by, and against millions of other people. Art exists in video games--music, models, etc.--but the product itself is not art, and can never be art, just by its very lack of deep, penetrating artistic vision. (Obviously I'm talking about AAA blockbusters. The indie scene might be different.)
2. Productive is advancing yourself in someway, I.E.: learning, creating, reading, writing, pretty much anything that doesn't involve wasting time, which may I remind you is the exact opposite of productivity. Playing a video game obsessively is, in general, not productive, for obvious reasons, chief among them because it's a video game created not to teach or advance an artistic principle but to entertain and waste time. Now, if you're truly devoted to becoming a professional Starcraft player, then fine, great, play it every day all day. However, if you're like 90% of the "I'm going pro" blogs on Team Liquid, then you're probably just wasting time.
3. Common attributes of professional sports players: love of the game, good work ethic, obsession. See: Kobe Bryant, Bobby Fischer, Roger Federer, MKP, Boxer. Even if I don't know every player, I can make an educated guess.
4. Addiction is obsession. I know something about it because my personality is addictive. I obsess over things. I was addicted to WoW, addicted to Starcraft, and I'm perpetually addicted to people. When I work on an artistic hobby I get obsessed. It's thinking about the same thing for days and days.
5. The people who are truly dedicated, the professionals making money, and those who are actually, fully, no-bullshit committed to the game are fine. I speak for myself, and people like me, who've obsessed over this damn game to avoid doing work or anything productive--not to advance ourselves in the game, mind you, but just to waste time--those are the people who shouldn't play video games, and to which the activity is harmful and detrimental.
Those are my opinions, and if you disagree that's fine.
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On August 06 2012 01:42 Dundron2000 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:34 DiuLaSing wrote:On August 06 2012 01:33 Dundron2000 wrote:On August 06 2012 01:30 julianto wrote:
They got what they wanted: a lot of article views from a large demographic on the internet. They did this by putting up an article that would surely stir up that community. CNN couldn't give 2 shits about young males 10-25, its not their target audience. but those 10-25 young males will grow up...oh shit I don't think you don't run a multi-million corporation on the premise that you are building a viewership that will be valuable in a decades time if you already have a core demographic with pressure to perform well within a short- and medium term time span.
True. But that mulit million corporation probably don't really care about the whole e-sport community. The video wasn't try to target this community anyways, it was targeted at parent, probably middle class parents, who kids are "addicted" to internet and gaming.
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On August 06 2012 01:47 DiuLaSing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:42 Dundron2000 wrote:On August 06 2012 01:34 DiuLaSing wrote:On August 06 2012 01:33 Dundron2000 wrote:On August 06 2012 01:30 julianto wrote:
They got what they wanted: a lot of article views from a large demographic on the internet. They did this by putting up an article that would surely stir up that community. CNN couldn't give 2 shits about young males 10-25, its not their target audience. but those 10-25 young males will grow up...oh shit I don't think you don't run a multi-million corporation on the premise that you are building a viewership that will be valuable in a decades time if you already have a core demographic with pressure to perform well within a short- and medium term time span. True. But that mulit million corporation probably don't really care about the whole e-sport community. The video wasn't try to target this community anyways, it was targeted at parent, probably middle class parents, who kids are "addicted" to internet and gaming.
in that we are in agreement
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Good article. Addiction is always a controversial topic to cover, but I think it is still an important and worthwhile topic to discuss. It is really something that I think every gamer needs to be aware of and to be careful of, and I think more coverage of it is a good idea, especially as gaming is becoming more common.
The part of the article that really struck me was the story of marineking screaming in his room after the electricity was cut. Very chilling, that is the kind of behavior you would expect to see from a drug addict who can't get his fix. Not from a game.
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Have you seen the Olympics, hundreds of people, literally addicted to swimming, running, jumping over things with bendy poles! They practice every single day, forsaking friends and family in pursuit of their addiction. Never let your children near a swimming pool or a 100 meter track, otherwise they might become addicted!
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On August 06 2012 01:46 jeeeeohn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:29 Shiori wrote:On August 06 2012 01:27 jeeeeohn wrote:On August 05 2012 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 05 2012 14:21 Wegandi wrote:On August 05 2012 14:18 Zzoram wrote:
Where are the articles about American Football addiction and how 4 players die each year from football on average, never mind the thousands of concussions that can lead to permanent brain damage? It's only an addiction when they disagree with your personal behavior. If you play a physical sport like say, football, or baseball for 5+ hours everyday, you're lauded. If you study math or science for 10+ hours a day, you're lauded. God forbid, you were a unique individual with their own likes and desires instead of some tabula rasa for them to mold to their own ends. Never ceases, does it? ? Dumb comparison. Most people can't play physical sports as long for as long as someone can play a video game (and addicts can play all day), and someone who studies actually benefits from it? Wtf? Are we really comparing the productivity of studying math and science to that of playing a video game here? Let me know how that looks on a college application. TL is really out of touch it seems these days.. Thank you for writing this because if I had I'd probably have gotten a warning or temp ban. TL is insane nowadays, which is really just representative of the culture in general wherein wasting time has somehow evolved into productivity. Newsflash: headline: every pro player is addicted to the game and video games are not art and video games are not productive, at all, ever, not now or in the future. You are not a special snowflake for grinding Starcraft 2 into the soft bits of your brain twelve hours a day. Go read a book or something. Aw, cute. Prove your shit. 1) What is art? 2) What is "productive"? 3) Do you know every pro player? 4) How do you define addiction? 5) How is making money playing video games wasteful? 1. A media through which the artist has a conversation with the recipient of the art. Usually these conversations cannot be had unless framed by a narrative or portrait or what have you. Video games are made by hundreds of people to be played with, by, and against millions of other people. Art exists in video games--music, models, etc.--but the product itself is not art, and can never be art, just by its very lack of deep, penetrating artistic vision. (Obviously I'm talking about AAA blockbusters. The indie scene might be different.)
What? This makes literally no sense. Your second sentence is just asserting that anything other than a narrative/portrait (????) can't be art. Literally nothing you have said here disqualifies video games from having meaningful narratives or stylistic art. What you've essentially said is akin to saying that sentences are artful but novels are not. I understand that people are reluctant to accept video games as art, and personally I don't really consider most things (games, movies, or books) art, but that's a different story than saying a medium is necessarily not artful.
2. Productive is advancing yourself in someway, I.E.: learning, creating, reading, writing, pretty much anything that doesn't involve wasting time, which may I remind you is the exact opposite of productivity. Playing a video game obsessively is, in general, not productive, for obvious reasons, chief among them because it's a video game created not to teach or advance an artistic principle but to entertain and waste time. Now, if you're truly devoted to becoming a professional Starcraft player, then fine, great, play it every day all day. However, if you're like 90% of the "I'm going pro" blogs on Team Liquid, then you're probably just wasting time.
This is moronic as well. I feel like you have a very immature understanding of what artists are. Whether something is a "waste of time" is not exactly something that can be objectively determined for all people. If I were to spend my entire life learning how to paint frescos, I would consider that a waste of time, because I don't like painting, nor am I talented at it. Similarly, I have absolutely no interest in geology, and becoming a renowned geologist would be an utter waste of time from my perspective. But going back to your first sentence, video games satisfy your measure, because they do advance the player in someway, namely, in skill at the game.
3. Common attributes of professional sports players: love of the game, good work ethic, obsession. See: Kobe Bryant, Bobby Fischer, Roger Federer, MKP, Boxer. Even if I don't know every player, I can make an educated guess.
And you think obsession and addiction are the same thing?
4. Addiction is obsession. I know something about it because my personality is addictive. I obsess over things. I was addicted to WoW, addicted to Starcraft, and I'm perpetually addicted to people. When I work on an artistic hobby I get obsessed. It's thinking about the same thing for days and days.
Oh, I guess you do. They aren't. I'm sorry that you think they are, but they aren't, and I'm telling you this as someone who has suffered from addiction as well as OCD. The psychological meaning of addiction is entirely different from intense interest or obsession with a subject. The two might be related, but they're not the same. Obsession can often be positive, whereas addiction occurs when the addictive subject controls the agent; obsession is just really intense interest. Addiction, on the other hand, is not. Gambling addiction, for example, is something which takes over a person's life. They may appear obsessed with gambling, but only because they are addicted to it. Similarly, someone who is obsessed with, say, literature, is probably not addicted to it, because literature does not control their psyche in a direct sense.
5. The people who are truly dedicated, the professionals making money, and those who are actually, fully, no-bullshit committed to the game are fine. I speak for myself, and people like me, who've obsessed over this damn game to avoid doing work or anything productive--not to advance ourselves in the game, mind you, but just to waste time--those are the people who shouldn't play video games, and to which the activity is harmful and detrimental.
Then that has nothing to do with video games. That has to do with escapism, of which video games are simply the most modern means. Escapism is, firstly, not the same thing as addiction, although it can lead to addiction. And escapism generally has less to do with the subject of escape and more to do with dissatisfaction with the rest of life. Rather than blaming Starcraft, or video games, or whatever, for "wasting time," consider that the true culprit is probably that you actually don't really care about whatever work you're avoiding doing.
The essential point you need to understand about addiction vs obsession is that the former is a compulsive thing whereas the latter is internally motivated. When I am obsessed with an author, I don't feel illogical compulsions to read their work; I read them because I am interested and I really want to read their work! When I feel "compelled" to do something, it's a niggling feeling in the back of my mind, connected to anxiety, which won't go away until it is satisfied. You can' have compulsions about things you really, really don't care about! I can't help but do things in sets of three when I'm feeling anxious, even though I'm certainly not obsessed with the number three. When I had a minor gambling addiction, I didn't want to gamble, and I didn't find it very interesting (pretty boring, actually) but I did it because it wouldn't leave me alone unless I did. The difference here is that there's no reason behind an addiction, whereas healthy obsession can arise from genuine interest and can be internally motivated.
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On August 06 2012 01:44 Klipsys wrote:ANYONE UNHAPPY WITH THE ARTICLE AND TWEET/EMAIL THE AUTHOR DIRECTLY. I won't post his email address, but his twitter is https://twitter.com/jdsutter and he has his email in one of his tweets. \ PLEASE DON'T EMBARRASS ESPORTS
You think a whole bunch of nerds tweeting the guy is going to make your case any better?
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What a terrible article, not just the sensationalized content, it reads like it was written by a middle-schooler who's just learned how to use metaphors or a failed fantasy writer.
edit: And please SC2 community if you're going to email the guy give him a real well articulated review with well thought out points, the last thing we need is a bunch of angry nerds venting at this guy because then you're just giving him and anyone else who wants to right a follow-up article extra ammunition.
Personally I'd say the worst thing about the article (apart from my gripes with the quality of the writing itself) is that it draws almost no line between professional video game players, who make a living from it and treat it as a job, and real video game addicts. There are 2 separate narratives in the article and they get switched between almost every other paragraph, which is almost certainly going to mislead anyone of doesn't already know a fair amount about the professional SC2 scene.
Also the descriptions used are just terrible, spindly fingers doesn't conjure up any positive images and what's with the description of Darkforce? He's the only person apart from MKP singled out for a description and its insulting and misleading, of course the guy who maybe fits a negative stereotype is described but nobody else is.
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On August 06 2012 01:34 DiuLaSing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:33 Dundron2000 wrote:On August 06 2012 01:30 julianto wrote:
They got what they wanted: a lot of article views from a large demographic on the internet. They did this by putting up an article that would surely stir up that community. CNN couldn't give 2 shits about young males 10-25, its not their target audience. but those 10-25 young males will grow up...oh shit
And when they grow up most of them will change..you know..grow up. When they are forced to live in a real world, they will reevaluate their opinions.(..oh shit?)
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the funny thing about this article is it was written for us, no one will read it but us. it was designed to be read by us
so its funny lol.... i guess.. people commentating on it being bad or whatever... at least no one will read it other than us lol and we already know most of it is just stupid standard strawman reporting
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"Park Ae-young was cleaning her son's room when she stumbled on his private notebook. She opened it, she told me in an interview, to see if his homework was finished.
But the secret she found was infuriating. It confirmed her worst fears: Her son, MarineKing, wanted to spend his life in an online world as a pro gamer."
This bit angered me the most. What's strange is that MKP probably earns more than this guy and he's not even twenty yet! He's doing what he loves and making serious bank, I know thats a desirable goal for me, and probably a lot of other people, regardless of whether they play video games or not. What a load of trash.
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On August 06 2012 01:56 IRL_Sinister wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:44 Klipsys wrote:ANYONE UNHAPPY WITH THE ARTICLE AND TWEET/EMAIL THE AUTHOR DIRECTLY. I won't post his email address, but his twitter is https://twitter.com/jdsutter and he has his email in one of his tweets. \ PLEASE DON'T EMBARRASS ESPORTS You think a whole bunch of nerds tweeting the guy is going to make your case any better?
I think a group of mature adults writing dissenting opinions and offering more story to a journalist who obviously cares about his work will absolutely make my case better. People are not just going to email him pictures of gay porn and call it a day. True pro gaming fans are going to try and show him why we love our culture so much
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I disagree that progamers are addicts. I don't see how you can still be addicted to something when it's your job and you "work" for 12 hours, 6 days a week. I didn't have a "real" job this summer so I was "free" to play SC2 all summer. Even with all this free time I didn't play a monstrous amount of game since I couldn't take it. I played for around 6 weeks now, with a count of maybe 400 games ? I can't take it anymore, it's too much, too repetitive, I don't feel like playing, it has no appeal. I don't get the feeling "Hey I want to play a game and to this! or "I want to try this out". So I think about the dude who basically has to play SC2 all day, everyday to get paid and I have trouble imagining this guy is still addicted to the game and can't leave without it. In fact, a lot of pro have admitted their frustration with the game, or their annoyance. Most of them say that the way they felt about the game changed when they became pro.
Obviously these are conclusions drawned from my own opinions and experience, and are not backed up by scientific study (before someone quotes me and says "excuse me but have you read X's study on Y matter" )
Now about the article, it's obvious that the author wasn't familiar with the game, or the gaming culture in general. I doubt the author even knew what the point of the game was (except the obvious "destroy the ennemy") . The aliens in a TvT matchup were... peculiar. The author also didn't understand why MKP kept playing games during the tournament, so he just "blamed" on the fact that he couldn't stop playing. The thesis of the article is also very confusing since they describe MKP as the guy that can't stop playing and is obsessed with the game during all of the article, but in the last paragraph is says that pro aren't addict. WTF ?
Last thing, anyone else wonders about the meaning of this MarineKing's dad now calls his son by his screen name, even in private conversation. while pretty much everyone here knows that in the korean scene, aka are pretty much never used and everyone uses people's real name.
I believe this is it for my thoughts.
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On August 06 2012 02:05 kaokentake wrote:
the funny thing about this article is it was written for us, no one will read it but us. it was designed to be read by us
so its funny lol.... i guess.. people commentating on it being bad or whatever... at least no one will read it other than us lol and we already know most of it is just stupid standard strawman reporting
it was not made to be read by us but most of us did read it.
edit: spelling
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grinding 12 hours in mmo is easy, i can go days at time.
grinding 12 hours in sc2 is worse than going to work, or even study for exams
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On August 06 2012 01:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:38 Rah wrote:On August 06 2012 01:27 jeeeeohn wrote:On August 05 2012 14:25 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 05 2012 14:21 Wegandi wrote:On August 05 2012 14:18 Zzoram wrote:
Where are the articles about American Football addiction and how 4 players die each year from football on average, never mind the thousands of concussions that can lead to permanent brain damage? It's only an addiction when they disagree with your personal behavior. If you play a physical sport like say, football, or baseball for 5+ hours everyday, you're lauded. If you study math or science for 10+ hours a day, you're lauded. God forbid, you were a unique individual with their own likes and desires instead of some tabula rasa for them to mold to their own ends. Never ceases, does it? ? Dumb comparison. Most people can't play physical sports as long for as long as someone can play a video game (and addicts can play all day), and someone who studies actually benefits from it? Wtf? Are we really comparing the productivity of studying math and science to that of playing a video game here? Let me know how that looks on a college application. TL is really out of touch it seems these days.. Thank you for writing this because if I had I'd probably have gotten a warning or temp ban. TL is insane nowadays, which is really just representative of the culture in general wherein wasting time has somehow evolved into productivity. Newsflash: headline: every pro player is addicted to the game and video games are not art and video games are not productive, at all, ever, not now or in the future. You are not a special snowflake for grinding Starcraft 2 into the soft bits of your brain twelve hours a day. Go read a book or something. It's truth that there's no difference between grinding SC2 12 hrs a day and any other game or MMO out there. There's a pro scene but that's a huge amount of time wasted for someone who never ends up being a pro. On the other hand pro SC2 does have a place in the world and the top few players will always be revered by some. For people who don't care about the game though they're more likely to form an opinion similar to CNN. I believe gaming is a bad habit more than it is an addiction. If you could go pro at biting your nails all day it would be comparable. If anything, this shows you've been infected by some sort of pragmatism rather than that videogaming is 'bad.' I always laugh when people criticize gaming on the grounds of 'productivity' while failing to consider that productivity for productivity's sake is completely arbitrary, and is only something that people have argued for in the post-narrative era we live in. Seriously, productivity is probably the god of this generation (i.e. last 20 years). It's sad, and it's arbitrary, and I wish people would shut up about it.
I'm just being real here and looking at things without Hotbid's E-Sports glasses over my eyes. Getting so mad about my opinion shows your own bias. The truth is there's a small amount of success going around compared to the time people have invested into this game. Many on this site have given up even and don't even play the game anymore, they just watch events to feel like they're part of a grassroots movement or something. To outsiders it comes across as weird to invest your life and passion into a game that they don't understand. Especially when popular opinion suggests our exposure to them should be limited. So there's nothing surprising about this article to me, but I'm surprised about some of our reactions to it.
I agree with you that you shouldn't fill your life with only productive activities, because then you'd miss out on a lot, but be a little open minded and don't take your hobbies so seriously. You're guilty of the same thing CNN is.
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On August 06 2012 01:56 IRL_Sinister wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 01:44 Klipsys wrote:ANYONE UNHAPPY WITH THE ARTICLE AND TWEET/EMAIL THE AUTHOR DIRECTLY. I won't post his email address, but his twitter is https://twitter.com/jdsutter and he has his email in one of his tweets. \ PLEASE DON'T EMBARRASS ESPORTS You think a whole bunch of nerds tweeting the guy is going to make your case any better?
Especially when the article is pretty clearly presenting the case that Professional gaming is not addiction. Its kind of funny that so many people don't understand this is a positive article because it talks about addiction. The people the article is supposed to be for would have a hard time distinguishing between the two. The article pretty clearly show why Esport isn't addiction, while not just brushing away a very real issue. There's no reason for anyone to be upset about this article.
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EPT
