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Season 8 Map Pool Update - Page 18
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On June 09 2012 00:17 Shiori wrote: If anything, defending 3base Roach is far more turtley than playing standard. I don't really like Entombed because the main is so small and close positions is lame. Maybe Zergs will have to innovate beyond 1 build against Toss, though, which is nice. Yes zergs should try new build like ling baneling play zvp but a third is still needed for that. IDK what you want zergs to do against ffe other than a fast third - it's either a fast third or a gimmicky 2 base all-in build. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:17 SupLilSon wrote: God damn you Blizzard. How in hell is CK still around in the map pool?? At least tweak it so its not 80% PvT...... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510 Try 51% in favor of Terran for korean. Or 55% in favor of toss for international. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:22 knOxStarcraft wrote: Yes zergs should try new build like ling baneling play zvp but a third is still needed for that. IDK what you want zergs to do against ffe other than a fast third - it's either a fast third or a gimmicky 2 base all-in build. I'm fine with them taking fast third; it's more that with this map 3base Roach will be weak cause there's no room for multipronged. I actually don't care if there are rocks there, to be honest. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On June 09 2012 03:49 ohampatu wrote: Ok 1. Play it like taldarim. Put your third base next to the rocks while you slowly kill the rocks, drop your 4th once the rocks are dead. 2. Take a fucking different base that is more vulnerable???? I know, not being able to take bases before making a handful of lings is sooo wrong Please. There are many viable builds I have taldarim vetoed like many other zergs because putting the base beside the rocks puts you at a disadvantage as zerg, so that's out. The alternative third on taldarim isn't too bad so that's ok option I guess. The problem with this shitty new map is that there really isn't a viable alternate third. The only alternate third there is means the zerg is expanding directly into the toss and it would be almost impossible to defend the 2 base all ins you protoss players enjoy so very much. Please. Don't come on here and pretend you have all the answers for zerg players because you very clearly don't. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:23 Shiori wrote: You should care if the rocks are there, they are like your ally against zerg.I'm fine with them taking fast third; it's more that with this map 3base Roach will be weak cause there's no room for multipronged. I actually don't care if there are rocks there, to be honest. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:20 Uncultured wrote: Come on now, you don't think this is a bit presumptuous? To believe that every strategy for a situation has been discovered and only one of them works. Really? If this were true than every game PvT on a map with rocks would have been won with a 2base all in. Protoss would have figured this out, and the racial balance for those maps would have been very in favor of toss. But they aren't. They're still 50/50. Not at all presumptuous given the current state of a game. If you could show me a Zerg who is comfortable stopping a 2-base immortal all-in off of 2 bases, I would happily pipe down and redact my statements. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:22 Uncultured wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510 Try 51% in favor of Terran for korean. Or 55% in favor of toss for international. I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. You can win on that Map if you win before 3 Bases but once 3 Bases are up it becomes impossible to stop a HT/Colossi from beeing build and you will probably lose the match. Its just impossible to attack a Toss on 3 Bases on that Map and even drops are almost shutdown just by mapdesign. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:27 knOxStarcraft wrote: I have taldarim vetoed like many other zergs because putting the base beside the rocks puts you at a disadvantage as zerg, so that's out. The alternative third on taldarim isn't too bad so that's ok option I guess. The problem with this shitty new map is that there really isn't a viable alternate third. The only alternate third there is means the zerg is expanding directly into the toss and it would be almost impossible to defend the 2 base all ins you protoss players enjoy so very much. Please. Don't come on here and pretend you have all the answers for zerg players because you very clearly don't. At least he's trying to think about the issue instead of immediately vetoing, never playing that map or circumstance, and instead whining about "blizzard and their fuckin' rocks". We don't have all the answers. Sometimes maps will have slight advantages and disadvantages for certain races. This is not necesarrily a bad thing. Balance in broodwar was achieved with maps. For all we know 3 fast bases for zerg might be OP. We would never know unless we add limitations to how things work for each race, and see how it plays out. Historically zergs win just as much on maps with rocks at the third as other races do. But if you take, say, Taldarim, which zergs had 75% in before the rocks were added, then maybe you can understand why rocks, from other races perspective aren't really a bad thing. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On June 09 2012 03:44 Diamond wrote: People like you are the reason most community members don't post on TL anymore aside for the occasional one liner. You feel the need to "make a name for yourself" by fighting with notable names. Well I'm not taking the bait, you continue your campaign about whining about Zerg and see where that gets you. On May 28 2012 04:15 IdrA wrote: ya the few minutes its taking him to write out posts venting frustration while still at the tournament are severely damaging his practice regime. shut the fuck up. you're the reason pros dont post on here anymore. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:33 s3rp wrote: I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. You can win on that Map if you win before 3 Bases but once 3 Bases are up it becomes impossible to stop a HT/Colossi from beeing build and you will probably lose the match. Its just impossible to attack a Toss on 3 Bases on that Map and even drops are almost shutdown just by mapdesign. Wrong. Go watch some korean weekly pvts on ck. Fxo terrans have shown tank openers into a standard lategame to be extremely strong. I have seen countless pvts on ck between evenly matched players where the terran winsa legitimate game. You just are not supposed to.play the same style you would on a map like shattered temple.or entombed alley... a concept that seems to go right over many players' heads (especially many foreigners that play the same style on every map) The fact that you say you have never seen a gsl terran win on CK alone betrays your ignorance on this matter. The stats don't lie. 51% TvP in korean tournament matches should give you pause when you make such outlandizh, ridiuculous claims | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:33 s3rp wrote: I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. And? I'm pointing out that the winrate isn't 80% in favor of toss like he said. Statistics aren't everything, no, but it's a better tool for analysis than what you've "never seen in GSL" Or what paltry bit you've looked through before making a determination that all the terran players were "heads and shoulders" above the toss players. | ||
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
Removing Korhal Compound LE, because not used in tournaments, and they really think that ass drool Condemned Ridge will be used in tournaments. I mean its even really positionally imbalaced. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
That said, meta and korhal are 2 maps i veto, so this season i basically gain 1 veto... yey for me i guess. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:35 Uncultured wrote: Did you even read my post? I said taldarim isn't too bad because the alternative third is in an ok position, on this new map it isn't viable at all. I don't need to play the map to determine that I can't expand directly into a protoss who will probably just 2 base all in and kill me.At least he's trying to think about the issue instead of immediately vetoing, never playing that map or circumstance, and instead whining about "blizzard and their fuckin' rocks". We don't have all the answers. Sometimes maps will have slight advantages and disadvantages for certain races. This is not necesarrily a bad thing. Balance in broodwar was achieved with maps. For all we know 3 fast bases for zerg might be OP. We would never know unless we add limitations to how things work for each race, and see how it plays out. Historically zergs win just as much on maps with rocks at the third as other races do. But if you take, say, Taldarim, which zergs had 75% in before the rocks were added, then maybe you can understand why rocks, from other races perspective aren't really a bad thing. And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
If Blizzard made it, you can be damn well certain droves of people will bitch about it. If there are gold bases or rocks this bitching will go up exponentially by the number of rocks and gold mineral patches in the game. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote: Did you even read my post? I said taldarim isn't too bad because the alternative third is in an ok position, on this new map it isn't viable at all. I don't need to play the map to determine that I can't expand directly into a protoss who will probably just 2 base all in and kill me. And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well. I made a similar point. Tal'darim also (kinda) works with rocks at the third because of the larger ramp. 2 base aggression works since the protoss will have more trouble hiding behind a wall-in. This map has rocks and a small easily walled off ramp. Needs a fix | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:41 -orb- wrote: Wrong. Go watch some korean weekly pvts on ck. Fxo terrans have shown tank openers into a standard lategame to be extremely strong. I have seen countless pvts on ck between evenly matched players where the terran winsa legitimate game. You just are not supposed to.play the same style you would on a map like shattered temple.or entombed alley... a concept that seems to go right over many players' heads (especially many foreigners that play the same style on every map) lol Orb the map used to be 80% pvt at some point. Now its not that bad anymore, still bad, but the tank style isnt coming from fxo terrans every single progamer has tried it on ck from the begginning. That being said the map is intersting and its better than what blizzard usually does, and of u try something new mistakes are to be expected... And lol at bashing foreign progamers, very nice of you | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote: And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well. That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:49 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: lol Orb the map used to be 80% pvt at some point. When there was less than 20 games played on it? How things were doesn't mean shit. It's how things are that matters. | ||
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