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On June 09 2012 04:45 Uncultured wrote:
The Blizzard Map Certainty Principle:
If Blizzard made it, you can be damn well certain droves of people will bitch about it. If there are gold bases or rocks this bitching will go up exponentially by the number of rocks and gold mineral patches in the game.
Probably has something to do with the fact that blizzard has never made a quality map in their decade+ of making strategy gamez. Their bad map design is something they are internationally famous for in contrast to their historically excellent game design.
As for rocks and golds, they have been proven over and over and over to cause imbalance and to fail to.achieve blizzards initial intention for them
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On June 09 2012 02:20 mewbert wrote:
zerg is extremely strong right now, stop complaining about a map that might not favor you when your race is doing really well, if this map didnt have rocks on it it would be unplayable
Oh so we as zerg players should just accept that we have to do 2 base all ins against toss? Those rocks with no alternate third make zvp unplayable on that map.
Zerg player's questioning a map's balance issues shouldn't be stopped because zerg is strong atm - Go back to reddit...
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The rocks at the 3rd makes this map an automatic down-vote. Why do they seriously think that it is needed, it's not balanced for Zerg to run a mile away to take a 3rd because your natural gets blocked by a fucking pylon, while they safely take a fast expo back home.
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On June 09 2012 04:50 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:45 Uncultured wrote:
The Blizzard Map Certainty Principle:
If Blizzard made it, you can be damn well certain droves of people will bitch about it. If there are gold bases or rocks this bitching will go up exponentially by the number of rocks and gold mineral patches in the game. Probably has something to do with the fact that blizzard has never made a quality map in their decade+ of making strategy gamez. Their bad map design is something they are internationally famous for in contrast to their historically excellent game design. As for rocks and golds, they have been proven over and over and over to cause imbalance and to fail to.achieve blizzards initial intention for them
All reasons why my proposed principle should be publicized. (pardon my alliteration)
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On June 09 2012 04:53 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:50 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:45 Uncultured wrote:
The Blizzard Map Certainty Principle:
If Blizzard made it, you can be damn well certain droves of people will bitch about it. If there are gold bases or rocks this bitching will go up exponentially by the number of rocks and gold mineral patches in the game. Probably has something to do with the fact that blizzard has never made a quality map in their decade+ of making strategy gamez. Their bad map design is something they are internationally famous for in contrast to their historically excellent game design. As for rocks and golds, they have been proven over and over and over to cause imbalance and to fail to.achieve blizzards initial intention for them All reasons why my proposed principle should be publicized. (pardon my alliteration)
I lol'd. Also, am I just crazy in the fact that the fourth could be taken as a third base depending on spawning positions for the zerg? Maybe I am but... I think it's an option?
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On June 09 2012 04:49 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:
And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well.
That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment.
Zerg does neeeeed a fast third against ffe to play a safe game, that's just the way it is. Zerg can still win by doing crappy and risky 2 base all ins but that isn't the way zerg should be played - the mechanics of the race make it hard to do so.
"explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure" LOL yes exploring shit a bit further, i.e. doing a couple crappy builds and losing a lot, seems like a really good idea to me. No thanks, I think I'll just veto it, it's not like it'll ever be used in any tournament play anyways.
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On June 09 2012 04:49 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:41 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:33 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 04:22 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:17 SupLilSon wrote:
God damn you Blizzard. How in hell is CK still around in the map pool?? At least tweak it so its not 80% PvT...... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510Try 51% in favor of Terran for korean. Or 55% in favor of toss for international. I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. You can win on that Map if you win before 3 Bases but once 3 Bases are up it becomes impossible to stop a HT/Colossi from beeing build and you will probably lose the match. Its just impossible to attack a Toss on 3 Bases on that Map and even drops are almost shutdown just by mapdesign. Wrong. Go watch some korean weekly pvts on ck. Fxo terrans have shown tank openers into a standard lategame to be extremely strong. I have seen countless pvts on ck between evenly matched players where the terran winsa legitimate game. You just are not supposed to.play the same style you would on a map like shattered temple.or entombed alley... a concept that seems to go right over many players' heads (especially many foreigners that play the same style on every map) lol Orb the map used to be 80% pvt at some point. Now its not that bad anymore, still bad, but the tank style isnt coming from fxo terrans every single progamer has tried it on ck from the begginning. That being said the map is intersting and its better than what blizzard usually does, and of u try something new mistakes are to be expected... And lol at bashing foreign progamers, very nice of you
You are baselessly bashing one of the single best spectator maps in starcraft 2s history and you are upset when i bash bad players that play incorrectly? You are the reason I make simple posts like "i want to slap blizzard" because if i write out a long coherent post backed up by factual evidence, someone like you comes along and pulls completely fabricated statistics out of nowhere and argues thing that are straight up wrong.
The map was NEVER at 80% in any matchup. Do your research before you spew such textual diarrhea, or better yet if you have no clue what you are talking about stop trolling and dont post at all
For the record the tank style wasnt used for weeks if not months after ck's release
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On June 09 2012 04:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:49 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:
And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well.
That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment. Zerg does neeeeed a fast third against ffe to play a safe game, that's just the way it is. Zerg can still win by doing crappy and risky 2 base all ins but that isn't the way zerg should be played - the mechanics of the race make it hard to do so. "explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure" LOL yes exploring shit a bit further, i.e. doing a couple crappy builds and losing a lot, seems like a really good idea to me. No thanks, I think I'll just veto it, it's not like it'll ever be used in any tournament play anyways.
Well I think it's pretty clear where you stand then. Also, people said that Entombed would never see tournament play too,
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On June 09 2012 04:56 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:53 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:50 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:45 Uncultured wrote:
The Blizzard Map Certainty Principle:
If Blizzard made it, you can be damn well certain droves of people will bitch about it. If there are gold bases or rocks this bitching will go up exponentially by the number of rocks and gold mineral patches in the game. Probably has something to do with the fact that blizzard has never made a quality map in their decade+ of making strategy gamez. Their bad map design is something they are internationally famous for in contrast to their historically excellent game design. As for rocks and golds, they have been proven over and over and over to cause imbalance and to fail to.achieve blizzards initial intention for them All reasons why my proposed principle should be publicized. (pardon my alliteration) I lol'd. Also, am I just crazy in the fact that the fourth could be taken as a third base depending on spawning positions for the zerg? Maybe I am but... I think it's an option?
I think it would work fine if it was cross positions only. However if you spawn horizontally then it most likely wouldn't work.
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On June 09 2012 05:04 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 09 2012 04:49 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:
And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well.
That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment. Zerg does neeeeed a fast third against ffe to play a safe game, that's just the way it is. Zerg can still win by doing crappy and risky 2 base all ins but that isn't the way zerg should be played - the mechanics of the race make it hard to do so. "explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure" LOL yes exploring shit a bit further, i.e. doing a couple crappy builds and losing a lot, seems like a really good idea to me. No thanks, I think I'll just veto it, it's not like it'll ever be used in any tournament play anyways. Well I think it's pretty clear where you stand then. Also, people said that Entombed would never see tournament play too,
Entombed shouldn't have seen tournament play. It didnt get used in tournaments because it is good, it got used in tournaments because tournament organizers are not progamers and have a tough time discerning what will be a good map for their tournament, so they look to ladder.
Hell, look at korhal. The tournament edition is VASTLY superior to the ladder edition, yet there are tournments that choose to use to use the ladder version despite its huge balance issues
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On June 09 2012 05:04 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 09 2012 04:49 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:
And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well.
That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment. Zerg does neeeeed a fast third against ffe to play a safe game, that's just the way it is. Zerg can still win by doing crappy and risky 2 base all ins but that isn't the way zerg should be played - the mechanics of the race make it hard to do so. "explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure" LOL yes exploring shit a bit further, i.e. doing a couple crappy builds and losing a lot, seems like a really good idea to me. No thanks, I think I'll just veto it, it's not like it'll ever be used in any tournament play anyways. Well I think it's pretty clear where you stand then. Also, people said that Entombed would never see tournament play too,
Entombed cross positions isn't bad at all, and there are no rocks at the third.... If they modify this map I'm sure it'll make it into tournament play but in its current state there is no way.
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On June 09 2012 05:08 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 05:04 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 09 2012 04:49 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:
And yes, fast 3 base from zerg might be OP - FFE might be OP as well? Zerg NEEDS that fast third vs FFE, that is an answer I do have. So when Blizzard puts rocks at the third with no alternative third that's viable i will veto their silly map immediately and I'm sure every other decent zerg will as well.
That could very well be. Difference here between you and me, is I don't know, and say I don't know. You don't know and claim you do know. You claim that "zerg neeeeeds a fast third to beat a toss FFE" like it's some well known, long established fact. I'm just saying let the map be so we can explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure. Don't immediately veto it because it's slightly unfavorable for you at the moment. Zerg does neeeeed a fast third against ffe to play a safe game, that's just the way it is. Zerg can still win by doing crappy and risky 2 base all ins but that isn't the way zerg should be played - the mechanics of the race make it hard to do so. "explore shit a bit further and figure these things out for sure" LOL yes exploring shit a bit further, i.e. doing a couple crappy builds and losing a lot, seems like a really good idea to me. No thanks, I think I'll just veto it, it's not like it'll ever be used in any tournament play anyways. Well I think it's pretty clear where you stand then. Also, people said that Entombed would never see tournament play too, Entombed cross positions isn't bad at all, and there are no rocks at the third.... If they modify this map I'm sure it'll make it into tournament play but in its current state there is no way.
This is a good point, entombed would be pretty bad if some tournaments weren't forcing cross spots.
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I'm quite curious, what is the point to the cliff above the third with rocks? It really seems the only thing that could be used for is for putting tanks to siege mineral lines or using for drops.
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theres no denying the numbers entombed valley in tournament play is not as bad as zergs like to think
International
TvZ: 56-57 (49.6%)
ZvP: 53-51 (51%)
PvT: 81-88 (47.9%)
Korea
TvZ: 14-18 (43.8%)
ZvP: 27-24 (52.9%)
PvT: 34-34 (50%)
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On June 09 2012 04:57 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:49 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 09 2012 04:41 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:33 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 04:22 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:17 SupLilSon wrote:
God damn you Blizzard. How in hell is CK still around in the map pool?? At least tweak it so its not 80% PvT...... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510Try 51% in favor of Terran for korean. Or 55% in favor of toss for international. I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. You can win on that Map if you win before 3 Bases but once 3 Bases are up it becomes impossible to stop a HT/Colossi from beeing build and you will probably lose the match. Its just impossible to attack a Toss on 3 Bases on that Map and even drops are almost shutdown just by mapdesign. Wrong. Go watch some korean weekly pvts on ck. Fxo terrans have shown tank openers into a standard lategame to be extremely strong. I have seen countless pvts on ck between evenly matched players where the terran winsa legitimate game. You just are not supposed to.play the same style you would on a map like shattered temple.or entombed alley... a concept that seems to go right over many players' heads (especially many foreigners that play the same style on every map) lol Orb the map used to be 80% pvt at some point. Now its not that bad anymore, still bad, but the tank style isnt coming from fxo terrans every single progamer has tried it on ck from the begginning. That being said the map is intersting and its better than what blizzard usually does, and of u try something new mistakes are to be expected... And lol at bashing foreign progamers, very nice of you You are baselessly bashing one of the single best spectator maps in starcraft 2s history and you are upset when i bash bad players that play incorrectly? You are the reason I make simple posts like "i want to slap blizzard" because if i write out a long coherent post backed up by factual evidence, someone like you comes along and pulls completely fabricated statistics out of nowhere and argues thing that are straight up wrong. The map was NEVER at 80% in any matchup. Do your research before you spew such textual diarrhea, or better yet if you have no clue what you are talking about stop trolling and dont post at all For the record the tank style wasnt used for weeks if not months after ck's release
Just for the record if you adjust TLPD to individual league the stats become 56-44 for Toss. I wanted to see how the GSL record is to see how the stats look like in really important games but couldn't find a way to adjust. The Map is Toss favored once the later stages are reached and different playstyle than Bio become less effective. Tankstyle for example doesn't sound like something that should work after the midgame unless the Toss funnels everything through chokes for whatever reason.
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I would like if they would make 2v2 maps where you could get more than 4 bases per team w/o needing total mapcontrol.
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On June 09 2012 05:32 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:57 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:49 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 09 2012 04:41 -orb- wrote:On June 09 2012 04:33 s3rp wrote:On June 09 2012 04:22 Uncultured wrote:On June 09 2012 04:17 SupLilSon wrote:
God damn you Blizzard. How in hell is CK still around in the map pool?? At least tweak it so its not 80% PvT...... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/510Try 51% in favor of Terran for korean. Or 55% in favor of toss for international. I've never seen a GSL Terran win on that Map and looking through the matches most of the Terrans that won that been heads and shoulders above their opponent.. You can win on that Map if you win before 3 Bases but once 3 Bases are up it becomes impossible to stop a HT/Colossi from beeing build and you will probably lose the match. Its just impossible to attack a Toss on 3 Bases on that Map and even drops are almost shutdown just by mapdesign. Wrong. Go watch some korean weekly pvts on ck. Fxo terrans have shown tank openers into a standard lategame to be extremely strong. I have seen countless pvts on ck between evenly matched players where the terran winsa legitimate game. You just are not supposed to.play the same style you would on a map like shattered temple.or entombed alley... a concept that seems to go right over many players' heads (especially many foreigners that play the same style on every map) lol Orb the map used to be 80% pvt at some point. Now its not that bad anymore, still bad, but the tank style isnt coming from fxo terrans every single progamer has tried it on ck from the begginning. That being said the map is intersting and its better than what blizzard usually does, and of u try something new mistakes are to be expected... And lol at bashing foreign progamers, very nice of you You are baselessly bashing one of the single best spectator maps in starcraft 2s history and you are upset when i bash bad players that play incorrectly? You are the reason I make simple posts like "i want to slap blizzard" because if i write out a long coherent post backed up by factual evidence, someone like you comes along and pulls completely fabricated statistics out of nowhere and argues thing that are straight up wrong. The map was NEVER at 80% in any matchup. Do your research before you spew such textual diarrhea, or better yet if you have no clue what you are talking about stop trolling and dont post at all For the record the tank style wasnt used for weeks if not months after ck's release Just for the record if you adjust TLPD to individual league the stats become 56-44 for Toss. I wanted to see how the GSL record is to see how the stats look like in really important games but couldn't find a way to adjust. The Map is Toss favored once the later stages are reached and different playstyle than Bio become less effective. Tankstyle for example doesn't sound like something that should work after the midgame unless the Toss funnels everything through chokes for whatever reason.
That is like saying a current map is zvt favored for zerg. It's overall game balance, not map balance.
Can you tell me a map that is currently T favored in the lategame for TvP? It's generally understood right now that lategame TvP is slightly P favored, so I dont understand what point you are trying to make.
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Rocks at third, instant veto, pls try harder blizzard. I think that as a zerg my three vetoes will probably look like everyone else's: Antiga, this new map, and either (Entombed/TDA).
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New 2v2 maps! With defendable expos. I can't wait to see how this turns out!
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On June 09 2012 02:04 TUski wrote:
Rocks on the third and ridges above bases got old when Lost Temple was around. Does blizzard even THINK when they make maps?
Oh wow I didn't even notice the ridges at the third, that is quite simply appalling.
edit: wait, is that a ramp to the highground behind the third, or not? I cannot tell. Maybe if it's a ramp that would make it interesting at the very least.
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EPT
