|
On May 17 2012 11:21 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:11 delo wrote:
Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there. Honestly, do you really believe if PPV events did awful, MLG would come out and say so? Absolutely not. Hell, they restructured the pay model as soon as the first one was over. MLG is trying to take steps to make PPV events profitable, and their investors expect the same. When an investor gives you money, they want you to spend it. They didn't give it to a company just to let it sit in the bank accumulating negligible interest. What is a better way to turn PPV events more profitable than charging people to watch the new up and coming SC2 players? These are drastic steps they're taking, and I believe it's because they were doing bad with their previous arenas. Unfortunately, I think this type of monopolization will turn their PPV events very profitable.
One does not simply continue with the planned direction if the events arent profitable. Arena 1 had less players which meant less people getting flown in which of course meant they didnt need as much to make a profit and they couldnt justify selling it for the same as the winter arena.
Businesses dont just keep doing stuff in order to make a point. If it hoenstly werent profitable then you would, at best, see one arena of SC2 per season and not two. However everything that has been said and everything that other people were able to see shows that they were profitable which isnt hard when you consider how much cheaper it is to run an arena.
|
On May 17 2012 10:47 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote:
While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!"
Since as investors they are privy to the books and since he clearly got more money then they saw something they liked in the model.
|
On May 17 2012 11:21 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:11 delo wrote:
Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there. Honestly, do you really believe if PPV events did awful, MLG would come out and say so? Absolutely not. Hell, they restructured the pay model as soon as the first one was over. MLG is trying to take steps to make PPV events profitable, and their investors expect the same. When an investor gives you money, they want you to spend it. They didn't give it to a company just to let it sit in the bank accumulating negligible interest. What is a better way to turn PPV events more profitable than charging people to watch the new up and coming SC2 players? These are drastic steps they're taking, and I believe it's because they were doing bad with their previous arenas. Unfortunately, I think this type of monopolization will turn their PPV events very profitable.
MLG said their pay model for the winter arena was a starting point a priori, so the fact that they changed it afterward doesn't necessarily mean that you can count it as evidence that PPV went badly. Also, it's not as if the investors just cut MLG a check for $10 million and said "we like your plan, go spend it" - it almost certainly had a lot of strings, including things like "hey I noticed your PPV thing is 'doing awful', you need to kill that right now so we can figure out something else", or cutting up the investment into chunks based on progress towards profitability, or a gajillion other things that happen when you're working with cash of that scale. And if you believe exclusivity will bring them PPV profitability that they haven't had up till this point, then what motivation is there to do the arena event this weekend when the arena track record was apparently so bad? It's not a significant departure from the setup of the winter arena and it has no exclusivity of anything by virtue of their agreement with KeSPA. It's just another 32 player PPV arena. And with the VC stake in MLG, had the first arena gone poorly, this one would have never happened. Remember, this isn't round 1 funding - it's 4 or 5.
|
On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote:
While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events.
Yes it was said that the PPV events were a success. Rest of the interview will be posted sometime today/tomorrow.
|
gom does not give a sh1t to MLG anymore, so does MLG to gOM.
|
On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena.
Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know.
|
On May 17 2012 11:47 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 10:47 Sub40APM wrote:On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote:
While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!" Since as investors they are privy to the books and since he clearly got more money then they saw something they liked in the model.
Investors aren't privy to books, but as VCs I presume they would be, as they do exert significant influence.
Exclusivity IMO is very good. It will mean increased profits for MLG which can lead to more assurance over its survival. We don't need Jaedong playing at every single tournament.
From a non-financial perspective it also means KeSPA can align their PL schedule around MLGs (or vice versa) - with no agreements it would be difficult for ANY KeSPA player to go to foreign tournaments except during the offseason because of their rigorous schedules.
|
What this means is that outside of Korea, we're the official partner for KeSPA. We're the tournament KeSPA players are allowed to play at the moment, by letter of the agreement. Our plan is to work with some of the partners that we have to bring those players there as well. I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them.
fucking. sigh.
In other words, kespa are still keeping their players on a leash. Want to see flash at a homestory cup? Not going to happen unless the organisers can somehow wing it with the kespa organisers.
And then repeat this process for every single tournament that isn't already involved in the negotiations. I'm thinking of events like Iron Squid, ESWC, ASUS ROG, Assembly, Lone Star Clash, ESV Weekly, Playhem dailies, MSI Pro Cup's, NASL, TT eSports events, Totalbiscuit's showmatches and so on.
This constant locking down of players, restricting their capacity to compete in events infuriates me. This shit happened in cricket and Britain's High Court smashed it down for restricting movement of trade (under the logic that gaming was the players' professional occupation).
Really wish someone would tell KeSPA to fuck off with their iron grip. More competition > less competition. Self-serving arseholes.
|
On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777Show nested quote +IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know.
Lots of big names have to play Up & Down's now, wonder who won't be showing up. Will try to find out more this weekend at MLG.
|
On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777Show nested quote +IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know.
Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill.
|
On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill.
This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round.
|
On May 18 2012 04:24 MDMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill. This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round.
Yes, and I'm saying that if money is trumping competitiveness, it's bad.
|
MLG is killing esports while maximizing monetary profit. Fuck them and their monopoly.
|
On May 18 2012 04:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 04:24 MDMA_ wrote:On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote:
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill. This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round. Yes, and I'm saying that if money is trumping competitiveness, it's bad.
i agree with you, but right now there is all this money to be had in "e-sports" and everyone wants a piece. There isnt a structure or many permanent leagues for the players to choose from as there are in other sports. If money is trumping competition right now, thats not necessarily a bad thing because that just means we will see more tournaments, more players and just more opportunities in general. You want this kinda of scenario in a "new' sport so to speak. But if this was the NBA for example and there are players that would rather sign $10 million/year contracts in greece than with an NBA team, that would be a SERIOUS problem of money trumping competitiveness. Ina way right now, this is just expanding e-sport horizons. Eventually we want e-sports to become like a mainstream sport, and when that time comes i highly doubt we will see money trump competition.
|
On May 17 2012 09:19 Alexstrasas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote:
Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me. Show nested quote +I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. I honestly don’t understand why people at this point in time think this is OK. Imagine what joke soccer would be if there was no Fifa, no leagues and no championships and instead teams would just randomly fly around and participate in various random tournaments. There is actually a small chance that SC2 drops the shitty "e-sports" tag and actually becomes a sport like BW was in Korea, but for that you need a head and a body, an organized appearance that will pass to outsiders the image that this is actually a legit thing and not just kids flying around participating in miscellaneous events sharing the stage with LoLs and CoDs. Also from a spectator point of view, i honestly don’t understand how you can like the current model. Using the soccer analogy again, we have national leagues which crown the national champion then we have the European leagues that crown the European champion, then separately you have various cups, including euro cup and world cup. What do you have in SC2 ? Weekend tournaments and the "champion of the month"GSL. How is this exciting to anyone?
Stop comparing SC2 to an actual sport. It isn't. If anything it is more like Poker and you don't see poker with a governing body deciding which pro plays where and who owns what, do you?
|
On May 18 2012 04:33 TORTOISE wrote:
MLG is killing esports while maximizing monetary profit. Fuck them and their monopoly.
Its in MLG's interest for e-sports to appeal to as many people as possible and for there to be as much going on as the market can handle. Killing e-sports would be a great way to lose years of hard work on Sundance's part.
|
You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
|
MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events.
|
On May 18 2012 05:29 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:19 Alexstrasas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote:
Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. I honestly don’t understand why people at this point in time think this is OK. Imagine what joke soccer would be if there was no Fifa, no leagues and no championships and instead teams would just randomly fly around and participate in various random tournaments. There is actually a small chance that SC2 drops the shitty "e-sports" tag and actually becomes a sport like BW was in Korea, but for that you need a head and a body, an organized appearance that will pass to outsiders the image that this is actually a legit thing and not just kids flying around participating in miscellaneous events sharing the stage with LoLs and CoDs. Also from a spectator point of view, i honestly don’t understand how you can like the current model. Using the soccer analogy again, we have national leagues which crown the national champion then we have the European leagues that crown the European champion, then separately you have various cups, including euro cup and world cup. What do you have in SC2 ? Weekend tournaments and the "champion of the month"GSL. How is this exciting to anyone? Stop comparing SC2 to an actual sport. It isn't. If anything it is more like Poker and you don't see poker with a governing body deciding which pro plays where and who owns what, do you?
How are the two even remotely comparable? A big chunk of the money generated in Poker comes from within itself one way or the other, it has little dependency on external views, aside from some very specific cases tied with the recent increase in popularity.
If all spectators literally stopped watching it, the pro players themselves would still continue playing and cashing in, poker has over 200 years, and it didn’t need ESPN to get there.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2012 05:50 Proseat wrote:
You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.
As I see it, after Blizzard realized that Kespa was actually considering getting into LoL, they decided to just let them do their thing.
I don’t think people posting here realize that if the SC2 scene continues with the casual "no commitment" model, it will be engulfed, in the long run, by more casual games.
|
On May 18 2012 05:50 Proseat wrote:
You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
uh... Blizzard helped this MLGXKespa deal happened. You can say it's thx to Blizzard for this happening.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
