|
EDIT: Sorry for the delay - I have posted the full interview which includes more details on OGN, IEG, and additional thoughts on GSL and involvement from Blizzard. Here ya go: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14794798
I have interviewed MLG's Sundance DiGiovanni on the MLG-KeSPA partnership, including details on the exclusivity portion. I hope to be able to provide any details that weren't included in the Adam/Lee interview. Details include Sundance wanting to work with DreamHack and IEM on KeSPA players, words on the former partnership with GomTV, and the possibility of seeing Flash vs NesTea in Raleigh.
Additionally, the interview was so long, that nearly half of it had to be cut for release. Tomorrow, I will be releasing the full un-edited version of the interview here only on TL, which is about twice as long as what's presented.
GS: So one of the biggest questions here regarding the new partnership is the announced exclusivity between yourselves and KeSPA and what this means going forward. What actions are we to see from this?
SD: What this means is that outside of Korea, we're the official partner for KeSPA. We're the tournament KeSPA players are allowed to play at the moment, by letter of the agreement. Our plan is to work with some of the partners that we have to bring those players there as well. I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them. Those are the two groups that I've been in contact with and have been thinking about. It could go deeper, but the point of this is that KeSPA takes this very seriously and they want to align with like-minded people.
In terms of the exclusivity part of it, I don't say this to come off as disrespectful but in their eyes they are the only ones over there. It's Korea and it's KeSPA. That's it. I'm not gonna lie and tell you I was running in there hoping I was going to do a non-exclusive deal because what sense does that make? You saw what that got me last time. It got me Naniwa not getting what he had earned, and I'm not going to do that again. From an operator standpoint, you could grab anyone from the other organizations and they all would have said they'd sign an exclusive deal too.
GS: You mentioned over-saturation as something to look out for. Do you believe there's too much eSports or StarCraft content right now?
SD: There are some things we can learn from KeSPA and there are some things we learned from GSL. There's a structure and system for this that can work really well. The problem right now is that we've got all these different events, no tie-in with each other, no continuation, different rosters of players for each. There are challenges we have to get through. It's no secret for a long time we've been trying to figure out the fixed location thing and we're doing it here in New York City for now. The plan is to have a global organization that runs a unified league with meaningful matches happening in multiple locations. So if I could have matches that are happening in South Korea, matches that are happening North America, Europe, South America, that at the end of the day, week, month, they relate somehow, that's going to be great for everyone. Some people now go, "Oh, this event's player pool isn't as great as the last one, I'm just going to tune in on Sunday." You kind of have to borrow from traditional sports a little more I think to get to the right place, in terms of a scale and growth perspective. For the full interview, read it here: http://www.gamespot.com/features/mlg-ceo-on-korean-crossover-deal-6376981/
|
He's got some solid points there. I agree with his second answer a lot, needs to be more unity among SC2 content providers. This has been shown already, but there needs to be more of a network to it, a "continuation" from tournament to tournament as he said.
Look forward to hearing more from him, looks to me that KeSPA and MLG want to do this right.
|
So is this going to affect whether or not Tastosis or Wolfdor can cast at MLG events?
|
On May 17 2012 06:52 Warblade! wrote: So is this going to affect whether or not Tastosis or Wolfdor can cast at MLG events? No. Unless GOM schedules Code S stuff during MLG that is.
|
On May 17 2012 06:57 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 06:52 Warblade! wrote: So is this going to affect whether or not Tastosis or Wolfdor can cast at MLG events? No. Unless GOM schedules Code S stuff during MLG that is. In the interview Sundance says GOM has scheduled their upcoming Up&Down games during Anaheim, so anything might be possible.
|
so glad Gamespot got rid of their god-awful black background.
|
hmm, not sure I remember but did Blizzard and Kespa come to some sort of agreement about the use of players in Blizzard-run events? I assume they did, especially since it would be bizarre if Blizzard had to go through MLG as well to see current BW players in their tournaments.
While I applaud Sundance's dedication to creating a more coherent, stable structure for SC2, I simply don't see that as very feasible for now. Apparently, it sounds as if he would like some sort of global league where the results in one place influence the results in the other. The only problem here is that while this might work in major sports where bottom feeders can play each other and some people (their fans) will be interested, the reality is that the vast majority of people would much rather see their favorites playing each other early and often. This is going to be even more likely when the BW players switch and there will be a strong push to have these players in as many overseas events as possible. I just don't see a market for people paying to see two newbies on monday just because that's what's on the tournament schedule MLG/Kespa determined. I don't think the viewership is there just yet.
|
In terms of the exclusivity part of it, I don't say this to come off as disrespectful but in their eyes they are the only ones over there. It's Korea and it's KeSPA. That's it.
Inb4 "good old kespa".
|
Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good.
|
|
Hey, I'm pumped we have people that want to make e-Sports something worth being into, something that is bigger than just a single tournament or league win. I can understand a little bit of doubt but Sundance really does make some awesome points, he always reminds me a couple times a year that he's actually pretty smart. At the end of the day, I take this kind of thing for what it's worth. I don't see some massive global e-Sports league taking shape, but certainly to a lesser extent some kind of tied in championship which links all the major tournaments/leagues together would be very legitimatizing to the competition of SC2.
|
opterown
Australia54650 Posts
On May 17 2012 07:12 Slasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 06:57 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 17 2012 06:52 Warblade! wrote: So is this going to affect whether or not Tastosis or Wolfdor can cast at MLG events? No. Unless GOM schedules Code S stuff during MLG that is. In the interview Sundance says GOM has scheduled their upcoming Up&Down games during Anaheim, so anything might be possible.
Really? I thought UnD were next week o.O may 21->
|
On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good.
What?
It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit.
I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money.
Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par.
So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me.
|
Rights to players participating? Wtf let any player play where ever he wants. Fucking disgusting.
|
This whole partnership is giving me a bad feeling. Good for MLG, but this doesn't seem like a good idea for SC2 as a whole.
|
Wow, anyone watching LO3 right now?
|
Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
In general I am really uncomfortable with Sundance/Kespa having so much power. I really want the BW pros playing SC2 but at the same time I'm so happy with the current scene. I really don't get why Kespa would even need to make such a big commitment to MLG... aren't they big enough to act on their own without needing to trust in such a young, inexperienced CEO?
|
I like that Sundance was so candid about the Naniwa situation.
|
|
While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and is apparently a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically.
|
On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically.
This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates.
I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me.
I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments.
I honestly don’t understand why people at this point in time think this is OK.
Imagine what joke soccer would be if there was no Fifa, no leagues and no championships and instead teams would just randomly fly around and participate in various random tournaments.
There is actually a small chance that SC2 drops the shitty "e-sports" tag and actually becomes a sport like BW was in Korea, but for that you need a head and a body, an organized appearance that will pass to outsiders the image that this is actually a legit thing and not just kids flying around participating in miscellaneous events sharing the stage with LoLs and CoDs.
Also from a spectator point of view, i honestly don’t understand how you can like the current model. Using the soccer analogy again, we have national leagues which crown the national champion then we have the European leagues that crown the European champion, then separately you have various cups, including euro cup and world cup. What do you have in SC2 ? Weekend tournaments and the "champion of the month"GSL. How is this exciting to anyone?
|
Dont make shitty comparisons. Soccer is a team sport. Sc2 is more like Tennis and every tennis pro can do what ever the fuck he wants.
|
Kespa players playing in in Kespa leagues and partnered leagues, Makes sense. Who really assumed Kespa is gonna let their players play outside in other leagues without a partnership? ppl this is Kespa we're talking about.
|
The under handed jabs Sundance directs towards GOM / IPL (directly and indirectly) is a little unprofessional and a little immature if you ask me...
|
On May 17 2012 09:25 Jarree wrote: Dont make shitty comparisons. Soccer is a team sport. Sc2 is more like Tennis and every tennis pro can do what ever the fuck he wants.
Funny how my comparison actualy worked in BW despite being a 1 player game too, teams in BW were actualy a big part of the fun, while in SC2 teams are only needed for plane tickets.
Tennis and also golf have a peculiar way of operating their busyness, trying to reproduce this model for anything other than tennis and golf and expect it to be successfull is utopian.
|
On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them.
Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events.
|
On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me.
Look at the PGA tour. Four huge tournaments that everyone cares about, plenty of smaller competitions for the tour players to earn money. Everything that you imagine going away with this can still exist. Same with NASCAR and Tennis.
|
On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:
Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events.
Be careful of taking everything at face value. No way he would come out and say they were a failure, so I wouldn't have expected to hear anything else. When you factor in flying 32 players out, covering their rooms, etc, I really have a hard time believing it was very profitable.
|
On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically.
On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates.
I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them.
I can only assume with how confidently you two assert these facts that you sat in on the KeSPa-MLG negotiations and know for a fact that MLG was the one who pushed exclusivity on KeSPa and not the other way around, along with that you are also in the know about other potential bidders for KeSPa and that they would have taken a moral stand against exclusivity for the sake of the community. Otherwise it'd be just rubbish speculation...
|
|
Exclustivity isn't the answer. MLG already learned this lesson, anyone remember their Halo players at ESWC? Why are they trying again?
|
On May 17 2012 10:05 patzernuk wrote: I can only assume with how confidently you two assert these facts that you sat in on the KeSPa-MLG negotiations and know for a fact that MLG was the one who pushed exclusivity on KeSPa and not the other way around, along with that you are also in the know about other potential bidders for KeSPa and that they would have taken a moral stand against exclusivity for the sake of the community. Otherwise it'd be just rubbish speculation...
Whether it was MLG or KESPA that pushed it, there is no difference. If two kids robbed a bank, would you give a shit who's idea it was? Absolutely not. You would want them both to be punished. This is no different. The fact that these two parties came to a mutual agreement on controlling what players can do is what's awful.
|
Cool, thanks for posting. Will check it out, should be interesting.
|
On May 17 2012 10:01 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:
Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. Be careful of taking everything at face value. No way he would come out and say they were a failure, so I wouldn't have expected to hear anything else. When you factor in flying 32 players out, covering their rooms, etc, I really have a hard time believing it was very profitable.
The fact that they are having 2 arenas per season is proof enough that they are making money off of them. If the concept was a failiure they wouldnt continue it just to prove a point and with the limited amount of investment that something like an Arena requires its not hard to turn a profit off of them.
|
On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!"
|
On May 17 2012 10:47 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!"
Agreed
MLG is gonna disappear from the SC2 scene eventually if what they're trying to do doesn't work. Trying to legitimize this hobby is too ambitious and too costly in my opinion. Leagues should just focus on hosting amazing tournaments rather then trying to make playing SC2 a sport.
|
On May 17 2012 10:01 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:
Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. Be careful of taking everything at face value. No way he would come out and say they were a failure, so I wouldn't have expected to hear anything else. When you factor in flying 32 players out, covering their rooms, etc, I really have a hard time believing it was very profitable. Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there.
|
On May 17 2012 11:11 delo wrote:
Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there.
Honestly, do you really believe if PPV events did awful, MLG would come out and say so? Absolutely not. Hell, they restructured the pay model as soon as the first one was over. MLG is trying to take steps to make PPV events profitable, and their investors expect the same. When an investor gives you money, they want you to spend it. They didn't give it to a company just to let it sit in the bank accumulating negligible interest. What is a better way to turn PPV events more profitable than charging people to watch the new up and coming SC2 players? These are drastic steps they're taking, and I believe it's because they were doing bad with their previous arenas. Unfortunately, I think this type of monopolization will turn their PPV events very profitable.
|
gom had it coming to them. why revoke a seed over that incident.
|
On May 17 2012 11:21 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:11 delo wrote:
Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there. Honestly, do you really believe if PPV events did awful, MLG would come out and say so? Absolutely not. Hell, they restructured the pay model as soon as the first one was over. MLG is trying to take steps to make PPV events profitable, and their investors expect the same. When an investor gives you money, they want you to spend it. They didn't give it to a company just to let it sit in the bank accumulating negligible interest. What is a better way to turn PPV events more profitable than charging people to watch the new up and coming SC2 players? These are drastic steps they're taking, and I believe it's because they were doing bad with their previous arenas. Unfortunately, I think this type of monopolization will turn their PPV events very profitable.
One does not simply continue with the planned direction if the events arent profitable. Arena 1 had less players which meant less people getting flown in which of course meant they didnt need as much to make a profit and they couldnt justify selling it for the same as the winter arena.
Businesses dont just keep doing stuff in order to make a point. If it hoenstly werent profitable then you would, at best, see one arena of SC2 per season and not two. However everything that has been said and everything that other people were able to see shows that they were profitable which isnt hard when you consider how much cheaper it is to run an arena.
|
On May 17 2012 10:47 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!"
Since as investors they are privy to the books and since he clearly got more money then they saw something they liked in the model.
|
On May 17 2012 11:21 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 11:11 delo wrote:
Well then I doubt any amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. You seem set on believing what you want to believe, despite statements from various MLG folks to the contrary + continued arena events which could have easily been hacked off had they not done well. Add in the recent VC round and the sudden abandonment of the Columbus, OH studio project discussed at the end of last year, coupled with the equally sudden announcement of a PPV arena in the NYC offices, and it's logical to conclude that the VC's told MLG it was time to get profitable now or else. And if it wasn't doing well, you can bet the VC's would have looked at the arena balance sheets and ordered MLG to stop them asap, because when you're on your 4th or 5th round of funding, they have that leverage because their equity stake is too big to ignore.
It might also be part of the reason the MLG/KeSPA agreement is exclusive, that if MLG wants to realize its vision of having a global league, the VCs insist its league partnerships must have exclusivity in order to monetize the space and be sustainable. So endgame (after future partnerships are brokered) is basically KeSPA + MLG + DH + ESL = global SC2 league partnership, including collaboration on scheduling, cross-tournament group seeds, PL finals in NA (MLG) and EU (DH) and elsewhere around the world (ESL), etc. Consolidation through collaboration, basically. Not one league, but a collective acting as one in key areas (probably not all). I'm not sure how I feel about this just yet as I enjoy, for the most part, the current SC2 model we have, but I can see the business logic that could be at work, given the somewhat limited information out there. Honestly, do you really believe if PPV events did awful, MLG would come out and say so? Absolutely not. Hell, they restructured the pay model as soon as the first one was over. MLG is trying to take steps to make PPV events profitable, and their investors expect the same. When an investor gives you money, they want you to spend it. They didn't give it to a company just to let it sit in the bank accumulating negligible interest. What is a better way to turn PPV events more profitable than charging people to watch the new up and coming SC2 players? These are drastic steps they're taking, and I believe it's because they were doing bad with their previous arenas. Unfortunately, I think this type of monopolization will turn their PPV events very profitable. MLG said their pay model for the winter arena was a starting point a priori, so the fact that they changed it afterward doesn't necessarily mean that you can count it as evidence that PPV went badly. Also, it's not as if the investors just cut MLG a check for $10 million and said "we like your plan, go spend it" - it almost certainly had a lot of strings, including things like "hey I noticed your PPV thing is 'doing awful', you need to kill that right now so we can figure out something else", or cutting up the investment into chunks based on progress towards profitability, or a gajillion other things that happen when you're working with cash of that scale. And if you believe exclusivity will bring them PPV profitability that they haven't had up till this point, then what motivation is there to do the arena event this weekend when the arena track record was apparently so bad? It's not a significant departure from the setup of the winter arena and it has no exclusivity of anything by virtue of their agreement with KeSPA. It's just another 32 player PPV arena. And with the VC stake in MLG, had the first arena gone poorly, this one would have never happened. Remember, this isn't round 1 funding - it's 4 or 5.
|
On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. Yes it was said that the PPV events were a success. Rest of the interview will be posted sometime today/tomorrow.
|
gom does not give a sh1t to MLG anymore, so does MLG to gOM.
|
On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena.
Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know.
|
On May 17 2012 11:47 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 10:47 Sub40APM wrote:On May 17 2012 09:47 Adreme wrote:On May 17 2012 09:16 Orracle wrote:On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and apparently is a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically. This is insanely fucking stupid to limit what events a player can play at. I still think there are bitter feelings over IPL after they announced dirt cheap viewing rates. I'm assuming MLG's PPV got terrible results. There's really no incentive for people to pay when it's essentially the exact same players that we watch weekly on GSL. You limit these new KESPA players to exclusive events and suddenly people are going to have to tune into their PPV to watch them. Then you would assuming wrong. Its already been said that the PPVs were a success and Sundance even said they make more off the PPV then they do the championship events. what else is he going to say "Yes I burned another 10% of our cash assets, but never worry fearless VC investors, I just need another 4 rounds of investments and youll definitely break even!" Since as investors they are privy to the books and since he clearly got more money then they saw something they liked in the model.
Investors aren't privy to books, but as VCs I presume they would be, as they do exert significant influence.
Exclusivity IMO is very good. It will mean increased profits for MLG which can lead to more assurance over its survival. We don't need Jaedong playing at every single tournament.
From a non-financial perspective it also means KeSPA can align their PL schedule around MLGs (or vice versa) - with no agreements it would be difficult for ANY KeSPA player to go to foreign tournaments except during the offseason because of their rigorous schedules.
|
What this means is that outside of Korea, we're the official partner for KeSPA. We're the tournament KeSPA players are allowed to play at the moment, by letter of the agreement. Our plan is to work with some of the partners that we have to bring those players there as well. I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them.
fucking. sigh.
In other words, kespa are still keeping their players on a leash. Want to see flash at a homestory cup? Not going to happen unless the organisers can somehow wing it with the kespa organisers.
And then repeat this process for every single tournament that isn't already involved in the negotiations. I'm thinking of events like Iron Squid, ESWC, ASUS ROG, Assembly, Lone Star Clash, ESV Weekly, Playhem dailies, MSI Pro Cup's, NASL, TT eSports events, Totalbiscuit's showmatches and so on.
This constant locking down of players, restricting their capacity to compete in events infuriates me. This shit happened in cricket and Britain's High Court smashed it down for restricting movement of trade (under the logic that gaming was the players' professional occupation).
Really wish someone would tell KeSPA to fuck off with their iron grip. More competition > less competition. Self-serving arseholes.
|
On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777Show nested quote +IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Lots of big names have to play Up & Down's now, wonder who won't be showing up. Will try to find out more this weekend at MLG.
|
On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777Show nested quote +IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill.
|
On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill.
This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round.
|
On May 18 2012 04:24 MDMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill. This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round. Yes, and I'm saying that if money is trumping competitiveness, it's bad.
|
MLG is killing esports while maximizing monetary profit. Fuck them and their monopoly.
|
On May 18 2012 04:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 04:24 MDMA_ wrote:On May 18 2012 03:25 Shiori wrote:On May 18 2012 01:12 StarVe wrote:On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars? https://twitter.com/#!/FXOBoSs/status/200514874122571777IF leenock loses his next GSL match, he will be forfeiting his up down matches to play in MLG Arena. Could've easily happened. Maybe in some more cases, I don't know. Discouraging. I really hope money doesn't cause GSL (which is 20x the tourney Arena will ever be) to go downhill. This is the kinda logic, that hurts e-sports more than helping it grow. I realize its bad form our standpoints and viewpoints (btw i agree with your point) about him missing out on by far the greatest (skill wise) tournament just to win a couple thousand $. But for him that couple of $$ is just worth it so much more and on top of that, where do u think FXO and Leenock build their brand more in the es-ports world? Korea or going to an MLG where thousands of fans attend, watch online, many many interviews with each player etc. Until GSL can bring that same level of hype, excitement, exposure etc that an MLg will bring, sponsors will always be more willing to send players to play these big "foreign" tournaments as opposed to Code A/up+down. Granted, being GSL Code S champion would prob bring way more publicity and exposure for a player/team but up/down compared to MLG, you can clearly see how $$ makes the world (and e-sportS) go round. Yes, and I'm saying that if money is trumping competitiveness, it's bad.
i agree with you, but right now there is all this money to be had in "e-sports" and everyone wants a piece. There isnt a structure or many permanent leagues for the players to choose from as there are in other sports. If money is trumping competition right now, thats not necessarily a bad thing because that just means we will see more tournaments, more players and just more opportunities in general. You want this kinda of scenario in a "new' sport so to speak. But if this was the NBA for example and there are players that would rather sign $10 million/year contracts in greece than with an NBA team, that would be a SERIOUS problem of money trumping competitiveness. Ina way right now, this is just expanding e-sport horizons. Eventually we want e-sports to become like a mainstream sport, and when that time comes i highly doubt we will see money trump competition.
|
On May 17 2012 09:19 Alexstrasas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me. Show nested quote +I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. I honestly don’t understand why people at this point in time think this is OK. Imagine what joke soccer would be if there was no Fifa, no leagues and no championships and instead teams would just randomly fly around and participate in various random tournaments. There is actually a small chance that SC2 drops the shitty "e-sports" tag and actually becomes a sport like BW was in Korea, but for that you need a head and a body, an organized appearance that will pass to outsiders the image that this is actually a legit thing and not just kids flying around participating in miscellaneous events sharing the stage with LoLs and CoDs. Also from a spectator point of view, i honestly don’t understand how you can like the current model. Using the soccer analogy again, we have national leagues which crown the national champion then we have the European leagues that crown the European champion, then separately you have various cups, including euro cup and world cup. What do you have in SC2 ? Weekend tournaments and the "champion of the month"GSL. How is this exciting to anyone? Stop comparing SC2 to an actual sport. It isn't. If anything it is more like Poker and you don't see poker with a governing body deciding which pro plays where and who owns what, do you?
|
On May 18 2012 04:33 TORTOISE wrote: MLG is killing esports while maximizing monetary profit. Fuck them and their monopoly.
Its in MLG's interest for e-sports to appeal to as many people as possible and for there to be as much going on as the market can handle. Killing e-sports would be a great way to lose years of hard work on Sundance's part.
|
You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
|
MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events.
|
On May 18 2012 05:29 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:19 Alexstrasas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. I honestly don’t understand why people at this point in time think this is OK. Imagine what joke soccer would be if there was no Fifa, no leagues and no championships and instead teams would just randomly fly around and participate in various random tournaments. There is actually a small chance that SC2 drops the shitty "e-sports" tag and actually becomes a sport like BW was in Korea, but for that you need a head and a body, an organized appearance that will pass to outsiders the image that this is actually a legit thing and not just kids flying around participating in miscellaneous events sharing the stage with LoLs and CoDs. Also from a spectator point of view, i honestly don’t understand how you can like the current model. Using the soccer analogy again, we have national leagues which crown the national champion then we have the European leagues that crown the European champion, then separately you have various cups, including euro cup and world cup. What do you have in SC2 ? Weekend tournaments and the "champion of the month"GSL. How is this exciting to anyone? Stop comparing SC2 to an actual sport. It isn't. If anything it is more like Poker and you don't see poker with a governing body deciding which pro plays where and who owns what, do you?
How are the two even remotely comparable? A big chunk of the money generated in Poker comes from within itself one way or the other, it has little dependency on external views, aside from some very specific cases tied with the recent increase in popularity. If all spectators literally stopped watching it, the pro players themselves would still continue playing and cashing in, poker has over 200 years, and it didn’t need ESPN to get there.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2012 05:50 Proseat wrote: You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.
As I see it, after Blizzard realized that Kespa was actually considering getting into LoL, they decided to just let them do their thing. I don’t think people posting here realize that if the SC2 scene continues with the casual "no commitment" model, it will be engulfed, in the long run, by more casual games.
|
On May 18 2012 05:50 Proseat wrote: You'd think KeSPA had learned their lesson when that big announcement ("united Starcraft II eSports vision" lol) together with Blizzard, OGN, and GOM was released. Yet they keep up this snotty superior attitude. And instead of MLG working to help a more relaxed stance on the way, they poured oil into the fire and encouraged KeSPA in their ways by snapping at the first chance of becoming KeSPA's lapdogs and be able to act as a proxy-KeSPA outside Korea. eSports vision my ass.
Now why does Blizzard keep silent about this.You'd think they'd welcome a flourishing global SC2 tournament scene where each and every player freely decides for themselves which tournaments they want to take part in. What we basically have on a global stage now is a cartel that limits the then former BW players even globally. What's next? GOM league players boycotting KeSPA/MLG events in retaliation?
uh... Blizzard helped this MLGXKespa deal happened. You can say it's thx to Blizzard for this happening.
|
On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events.
The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players.
|
I think sun-dance is heading E-Sports in the right direction, if we can get the best players constantly showing up and actually create story-lines it will be good for ESPORTS in general (my opinion).
|
On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players.
Exactly... and ppl expected Kespa players to attend foreign tournaments if there was no partnership...
|
|
Anaheim is in June isn't it? Nestea plays on May 21st and U&D's finish the 25th. On that subject I'm a bit confused by Sundance's jab at GSL saying they made some behind the scene announcement that U&D are the same as Anaheim when clearly they aren't even close.
|
Thanks for going straight to the top, Slasher. Having said that though,#^(% Slasher.
As far as all of the pretty pictures Sundance is painting, I would like to believe it. I understand what he's said, what his vision of eSports in the future looks like (he did a very interesting speech at MLG Orlando last year) but I guess I won't REALLY "get it" until I start seeing MLG start making meaningful movement in that direction. It's one thing to say you want to move towards something like the youth soccer (football) association in the US which is set up to provide meaningful games across multiple skill levels from around age 6 through college, and other to consistently go after large partnerships with GOM or KeSPA. I'm just not seeing any real movement towards ensuring there is a "farm" system in which people are introduced to ESPORTS and "grow" into both players and consumers.
Of course, Sundance could really prove me wrong and say, bail out CSL from their current predicament so that there is unquestionable proof he could point at and say he really is interested in developing a farm style system in the US. Then again, a lot of pros are in college already and not part of the CSL.
I dunno. Sundance is a great speaker (when he tries) and pretty genuine, but I would like to see a little bit more of building the foundations he talks about rather than going straight for the penthouse deals.
|
|
this is such bullshit. They're angry over the Naniwa incident so that means they want to create a foreign monopoly on KeSPA players? This is going to be so bad for the development of eSports. MLG is essentially saying, "go through us or your tournament will be worthless." Such a dis on IPL and GOM. Creating a more unified international system of esports isn't supposed to be about creating factions and segregating players. I can't believe it. This is horrible.
|
On May 19 2012 11:51 markrevival wrote: this is such bullshit. They're angry over the Naniwa incident so that means they want to create a foreign monopoly on KeSPA players? This is going to be so bad for the development of eSports. MLG is essentially saying, "go through us or your tournament will be worthless." Such a dis on IPL and GOM. Creating a more unified international system of esports isn't supposed to be about creating factions and segregating players. I can't believe it. This is horrible.
I'd suggest re-reading the interview, particularly this part:
"I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them. Those are the two groups that I've been in contact with and have been thinking about. It could go deeper, but the point of this is that KeSPA takes this very seriously and they want to align with like-minded people."
It's quite clear that this exclusivity doesn't represent a desire to "create a monopoly". In fact, by the sound of things it seems KeSPA were the ones who wanted exclusivity for now.
|
On May 19 2012 12:45 Laxx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 11:51 markrevival wrote: this is such bullshit. They're angry over the Naniwa incident so that means they want to create a foreign monopoly on KeSPA players? This is going to be so bad for the development of eSports. MLG is essentially saying, "go through us or your tournament will be worthless." Such a dis on IPL and GOM. Creating a more unified international system of esports isn't supposed to be about creating factions and segregating players. I can't believe it. This is horrible.
I'd suggest re-reading the interview, particularly this part: Show nested quote +"I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them. Those are the two groups that I've been in contact with and have been thinking about. It could go deeper, but the point of this is that KeSPA takes this very seriously and they want to align with like-minded people." It's quite clear that this exclusivity doesn't represent a desire to "create a monopoly". In fact, by the sound of things it seems KeSPA were the ones who wanted exclusivity for now. No, that's exactly what I was referring to. IEM, Dreamhack, and whoever else wants to have a shot at forming a formidable tournament in the future when KeSPA players become crucial they have to go through MLG. What's worse is that they single out IPL and GSL as people they don't want to work with, but those are the best tournaments right now. So yeah, it is about business competition. This isn't about growing eSports, its about making sure IPL doesn't undercut them any more than they already are by offering better and free esports scene.
|
On May 17 2012 09:07 m0ck wrote: While GOM deserves to get beat up over the Naniwa-MLG-incident, for Kespa and MLG to be able to limit players from participating in tournaments serves no-one but the organizers. This is a really unhealthy and unnecessary development and is apparently a reflection of the corporate warfare between IPL and MLG (and of course, the power of Kespa). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
For the sake of the freedom of the players, for the sake of a lively, dynamic scene of differing tournament organizers, for the sake of diversifying power and control, this development should be looked upon very critically.
This is exactly how I feel...
I'm glad he talked about over saturation. There's too much content right now. Even at an MLG event its nonstop games for 3 days then nothing. Fewer, more meaningful games with more prize money is the way to go.
|
On May 19 2012 12:45 Laxx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 11:51 markrevival wrote: this is such bullshit. They're angry over the Naniwa incident so that means they want to create a foreign monopoly on KeSPA players? This is going to be so bad for the development of eSports. MLG is essentially saying, "go through us or your tournament will be worthless." Such a dis on IPL and GOM. Creating a more unified international system of esports isn't supposed to be about creating factions and segregating players. I can't believe it. This is horrible.
I'd suggest re-reading the interview, particularly this part: Show nested quote +"I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] Intel Extreme Masters (IEM) about working with them. Those are the two groups that I've been in contact with and have been thinking about. It could go deeper, but the point of this is that KeSPA takes this very seriously and they want to align with like-minded people." It's quite clear that this exclusivity doesn't represent a desire to "create a monopoly". In fact, by the sound of things it seems KeSPA were the ones who wanted exclusivity for now.
What about NASL, IPL, or any other league besides those that plays nice with MLG?
|
Hahahaha.
They're still using the Naniwa incident as a scapegoat for their own bullshit?
NEWSFLASH MLG: He got his seed into Code S.
Do they really think we're all this dumb? That we can't see through that spin?
|
I see this more as competition than anything else. MLG/DH/IEM/Kespa etc will have their thing, and then IPL/Gom will have their thing. I'd much rather see this move towards one central organization so there is less over-saturation. I literally didn't watch the MLG arena/ipl FC because Code S was so damn good last night.
|
On May 20 2012 17:22 BigKahunaBurger wrote: Hahahaha.
They're still using the Naniwa incident as a scapegoat for their own bullshit?
NEWSFLASH MLG: He got his seed into Code S.
Do they really think we're all this dumb? That we can't see through that spin?
maybe just you
|
On May 20 2012 17:33 Havik_ wrote: I see this more as competition than anything else. MLG/DH/IEM/Kespa etc will have their thing, and then IPL/Gom will have their thing. I'd much rather see this move towards one central organization so there is less over-saturation. I literally didn't watch the MLG arena/ipl FC because Code S was so damn good last night.
wait there was an arena going on?
|
Too much unjustified power in the hands of what has become the most greedy tournament in "the rest of the world". Let every player play in what ever tournament he wants to, I can't believe they are making this into such a totalitarian rule. This is really bad news for e-sports, but I guess it couldn't last forever. Lets hope GOM and IPL continue giving us loads of great and cheap content! No more MLG for me.
|
On May 20 2012 18:26 drew-chan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 17:33 Havik_ wrote: I see this more as competition than anything else. MLG/DH/IEM/Kespa etc will have their thing, and then IPL/Gom will have their thing. I'd much rather see this move towards one central organization so there is less over-saturation. I literally didn't watch the MLG arena/ipl FC because Code S was so damn good last night. wait there was an arena going on?
That sign that's on top right of TL, unless you have bad vision.
|
I like the way GOMTV operates, less of a controlling system, more of an inviting one.
If a player is on a team (signed a contract etc) it should be up to the player and/or team (depending on whats written in the contract) to decide what tournaments the player shall participate in.
Exclusivity is lolworthy, heading more to the direction of Wrestling (WWE etc) than actual sports.
If anything just feels like restrictions will hurt KeSPA players development and give them less opportunities to showcase themselves (when they might be ready).
Be interesting to see what happens with future tournaments on OGN regarding who can participate in those.
|
Second question is very head-on! Great stuff and really keen on asking the right questions.
|
On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players.
You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM.
|
On May 21 2012 00:08 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players. You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM.
Kespa has all those and more and they are on the OGN tv network. Plus BW star players are more popular then Korean SC2 players Also I don't see what MLG can lose. They host an open tournament and now they get more exclusive star power, because of Kespa.
EDIT: Oh and Kespa or OGN are doing LoL the most popular game in korea atm.
|
On May 18 2012 22:39 xBillehx wrote:Anaheim is in June isn't it? Nestea plays on May 21st and U&D's finish the 25th. On that subject I'm a bit confused by Sundance's jab at GSL saying they made some behind the scene announcement that U&D are the same as Anaheim when clearly they aren't even close.
I think that it implies that GSL originally planned to do the U&D on the week of the 4th (after the opening round of the GSTL), but because of players wanting to go to Anaheim, they moved U&D to this week.
|
On May 21 2012 00:15 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 00:08 s4life wrote:On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players. You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM. Kespa has all those and more and they are on the OGN tv network. Plus BW star players are more popular then Korean SC2 players Also I don't see what MLG can lose. They host an open tournament and now they get more exclusive star power, because of Kespa. EDIT: Oh and Kespa or OGN are doing LoL the most popular game in korea atm.
I don't see how any of what you said contradicts what I stated. GOM can absolutely require its players to be sort of exclusive, since MLG started with that shit. OGN and LOL are very popular in Korea, but the best SC2 players are in the GSL, at least for the foreseeable future, and that's what really boils down to when organizing tournaments. This could create two blocks of players/tournaments.. a total disaster for esports.
|
On May 21 2012 00:24 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 00:15 zaii wrote:On May 21 2012 00:08 s4life wrote:On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players. You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM. Kespa has all those and more and they are on the OGN tv network. Plus BW star players are more popular then Korean SC2 players Also I don't see what MLG can lose. They host an open tournament and now they get more exclusive star power, because of Kespa. EDIT: Oh and Kespa or OGN are doing LoL the most popular game in korea atm. I don't see how any of what you said contradicts what I stated. GOM can absolutely require its players to be sort of exclusive, since MLG started with that shit. OGN and LOL are very popular in Korea, but the best SC2 players are in the GSL, at least for the foreseeable future, and that's what really boils down to when organizing tournaments. This could create two blocks of players/tournaments.. a total disaster for esports.
Gom can't require their players to be exclusive to them Since they don't have the massive corporation backing that Kespa has to pay for the teams, The best SC2 players are the korean players and they are all over the place playing for a lot of leagues, They are not exclusive to Gom. Oh and outside players will be able to play in Kespa through MLG.
|
Regarding the exclusivity thing - I don't understand why it's supposed to be such a given that they would strike a deal like that. He talks as if it is the most natural thing in the world. In fact this is a very unique situation wherein an organisation has complete control over several teams and MLG went ahead and effectively split the scene right in half. Does anyone really expect it to turn out any other way?
MLG keeps asserting that kespa has a history of not letting their players compete in foreign events which is strange, considering there literally were no other events than WCG/blizzcup and CS 1.6 teams that are part of kespa have competed all across the world. I guess I'm supposed to think that MLG is single-handedly bringing kespa players out into an international scene? Yeah, I don't really buy that. When there are events with prize pools that are large enough to justify the travel, and there are no conflicting pro league / individual league matches happening, I doubt kespa would be hesitant to let their players attend, MLG or no MLG.
"Over-saturation," by which he means other events doing a surprisingly good job of competing with their PPV style events. Imo, if they're so concerned with making money they should be happy that there are a lot of events happening all across the world and thereby expanding the fan base. Starcraft 2 is simply nowhere near large enough that this should be a matter of concern. His reasoning seems really short-sighted to me.
|
Wish Gamespot articles were able to be read from GameFAQs... Can't stand the look of GSpot. Though GameFAQs has pretty much completely split from there, though.
Thanks for the interview, though! Nice info :D
|
Kespa has to remain relevant somehow, and I think much of this discussion has more to do with OGN/Kespa than MLG.
I still think Sundance is a complete douchebag. His answers always seem canned, and he takes forever to say anything of substance. I really can't stand the 9,000 disclaimers and caveats he spits out. I want to grab him and shake him until he snaps out of his trance. What the fuck. =(
|
its rather cute to sugar coat blunt cutthroat bussiness with naniwa/gsl problem.
|
Man I would really hate for GOM to just be left behind like that after all they've done...
|
On May 18 2012 04:33 TORTOISE wrote: MLG is killing esports while maximizing monetary profit. Fuck them and their monopoly. Agreed. I can't see how people are supporting MLG here. They're just trying to make a buck by making moves behind the scene to restrict competition and lock down players. Their master plan will be to control Korea through Kespa and outside of Korea through their 'partnerships'. Time to boycott MLG!
|
Mlg lags again(eu), really pro company. Time after time promises HD streams but still lag at 480p.
Really pro production, really LOL
|
On May 21 2012 01:47 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Man I would really hate for GOM to just be left behind like that after all they've done...
You meaning securing that SC2 exclusivity back then?
|
Sundance always finds a way to shit on GOM in every interview I'd seen of him. Talk about professionalism.
|
Kespa said they wanted to work with GOM, but what does that involve beyond PR? Restricting players from participating in tournaments forces them to choose between one of two leagues and with Kespa's better sponsorship that's going to push GSL players to Kespa. Once they get the players, Kespa is then able to collective do whatever the f*ck they want and you're not going to be able to stop them. Kespa is very adept at boycotting whoever they don't see eye to eye with.
It begins.
|
1. Monopolies are bad ... unless they are run as a kinda non-profit organization, a government-run water supply for example. MLG has to make a profit, so their desires and the benefit of the consumer will clash eventually. I had thought Koreans were smart, but the reemergence of KeSPA with the same old stupid stuff is bad. They should have noticed by now that Starcraft 2 is MUCH more of a global eSport than BW ever was and that a monopoly with all its rules for the players is a bad thing.
2. I dont think "eSport" is a viable job! The reason is simple ... in Starcraft terms: There is no logical transition after the eSport phase since you basically didnt learn any profession during the most receptive time of your life to learn. Sure there may be a few jobs on the "outskirts" of eSports (casting, PR, organizations), but since those jobs can be filled for much longer than an eSport career I dont think there will be many vacancies there. Thus I am not going to shed a tear if the big monetized Starcraft 2 tournaments disappear and only the weekly 100$ tournaments remain ... broadcasted by a few enthusiasts in their spare time.
|
Do not like the sounds of this.
I hope western teams don't work too closely with MLG. Sounds like MLG-Kespa is looking to keep them under lockdown too.
|
On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
In general I am really uncomfortable with Sundance/Kespa having so much power. I really want the BW pros playing SC2 but at the same time I'm so happy with the current scene. I really don't get why Kespa would even need to make such a big commitment to MLG... aren't they big enough to act on their own without needing to trust in such a young, inexperienced CEO? In things like this, a monopoly isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, would your rather have the NHL, or 5-10 different small leagues all over North America? The competition becomes more meaningful in a unified way.
|
On May 21 2012 03:11 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
In general I am really uncomfortable with Sundance/Kespa having so much power. I really want the BW pros playing SC2 but at the same time I'm so happy with the current scene. I really don't get why Kespa would even need to make such a big commitment to MLG... aren't they big enough to act on their own without needing to trust in such a young, inexperienced CEO? In things like this, a monopoly isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, would your rather have the NHL, or 5-10 different small leagues all over North America? The competition becomes more meaningful in a unified way. It's not good. It deprives players of choice. The organisation in power will become complacent and soon everyone else except them will lose leverage and are forced to play nice with them. Don't like their league as a player? Where else are you gonna play? Wrote an article that doesn't put MLG / Kespa in a fucking awesome light? Don't expect anymore interviews or press passes. Same thing for casters and every other potential newcomer trying to break into the industry.
|
On May 21 2012 03:11 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
In general I am really uncomfortable with Sundance/Kespa having so much power. I really want the BW pros playing SC2 but at the same time I'm so happy with the current scene. I really don't get why Kespa would even need to make such a big commitment to MLG... aren't they big enough to act on their own without needing to trust in such a young, inexperienced CEO? In things like this, a monopoly isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, would your rather have the NHL, or 5-10 different small leagues all over North America? The competition becomes more meaningful in a unified way.
The former.
What you guys don't understand is that an unified league with Kespa at the head -> they control when and what players participate in -> you don't get all these small leagues, player streams, showmatches, etc. Kespa keeps their players on a tight leash and I don't see that changing with this press release.
It's going to result in less content. Kespa and MLG are going to run their leagues with a ton of commercials - ala pro-league, individual leagues, etc. - and that's it. That's what you're going to get and you won't be able to stop them.
I for one enjoy eSports because it is not physical sports where leagues control everything and players have no freedom to participate in community events.
Esports in SC 2 has been very bottom up. Kespa, however, wants to make it top down.
|
[QUOTE]On May 21 2012 03:11 mprs wrote: [QUOTE]On May 17 2012 08:46 densha wrote: Did Sundance just say that GSL is losing Up and Down players to MLG? Would any Korean team really let their players miss out on a chance at Code S just for a few thousand dollars?
In general I am really uncomfortable with Sundance/Kespa having so much power. I really want the BW pros playing SC2 but at the same time I'm so happy with the current scene. I really don't get why Kespa would even need to make such a big commitment to MLG... aren't they big enough to act on their own without needing to trust in such a young, inexperienced CEO?[/QUOTE] Suppose there were two equal-sized, equal-skilled hockey leagues in the same area/country. What would you prefer: only one of them be seeded into international events/have syndicated broadcast/be considered "legitimate" or have both of them merge under joint-management. I think we all know that inevitably KeSPA will be the head of all leagues in Korea, but GOM deserves say and representation.
|
You saw what that got me last time. It got me Naniwa not getting what he had earned, and I'm not going to do that again.
I wonder how Kespa would have reacted to Naniwa's probe rush
Probably the same way if not an even harsher penalty.
|
I honestly can't believe Sundance has the gall to criticize GOM about the Code S seed thing when the GSL partnership was pretty much the whole reason that MLG had the success that it did last year. After the epic fail of MLG Dallas, GSL brought in the talent that guaranteed exciting games. Let's face it, there are only a few foreigners that can compete with even a marginal Code A player.
The business of SC2 is still in it's infancy. Month after month we see tournaments like Lonestar Clash and Iron Squid try new, creative things that advance the scene far more than another PPV that only a few thousand people watch. If tournament organizers have to kiss the ring of somebody who's shown himself to be rather capricious and grudge-prone to get access to a large chunk of the player-base, then I truly fear that we'll see far fewer people willing take chances on something new.
|
On May 21 2012 07:52 Naftali wrote: I honestly can't believe Sundance has the gall to criticize GOM about the Code S seed thing when the GSL partnership was pretty much the whole reason that MLG had the success that it did last year. After the epic fail of MLG Dallas, GSL brought in the talent that guaranteed exciting games. Let's face it, there are only a few foreigners that can compete with even a marginal Code A player.
The business of SC2 is still in it's infancy. Month after month we see tournaments like Lonestar Clash and Iron Squid try new, creative things that advance the scene far more than another PPV that only a few thousand people watch. If tournament organizers have to kiss the ring of somebody who's shown himself to be rather capricious and grudge-prone to get access to a large chunk of the player-base, then I truly fear that we'll see far fewer people willing take chances on something new. The 'gall'? Seriously? MLG cut a deal in which the LXP granted a code S seed to the top placing finisher at MLG events who didn't already have one - Naniwa earned that seed and GOM decided to not honor that deal after the probe rush incident. GOM is /not/ - and should not be - above criticism. The fact that MLG benefited from having the LXP because of Korean players coming over does not mean that SD shouldn't be able to make a fairly tame comment about the impoetus for exclusivity with KeSPA.
|
Will not work anyway.
Only a question of time, until kespa players see that kespa and mlg and who else gets money for them playing somewhere else. They will find a not kesp team and make more for them self. This is not possible if the monopole is established already (kespa bw) but its way to late for them to control the sc2 market now...
See it from the eyes of the other tournaments. Would you pay kespa and mlg, you direct concurrent, for players? If you do so now, they get more power and want more money every time.
|
"we've got Anaheim coming up here in a couple weeks and they made this behind-the-scenes announcement that Up & Down matches would be at the same time"
That statement is not true. Up & Down matches May 21st-25th, MLG Anaheim June 8th-10th. Sundance should apologise for that incorrect accusation.
What happened to part 2 of the interview btw?
|
On May 21 2012 09:06 Aetherial wrote: "we've got Anaheim coming up here in a couple weeks and they made this behind-the-scenes announcement that Up & Down matches would be at the same time"
That statement is not true, Up & Down matches May 21 to May 25, MLG Anaheim June 8th-10th. Sundance should apologise for that.
What happened to part 2 of the interview btw?
For all we know, GOM could have originally planned to go from the Code S Finals to the first round of new GSTL season, and then to the Up & Down matches...which would have placed U&D on June 4th-8th, conflicting with Anaheim. There is not enough publicly available info on the situation to confirm or disprove Sundance's statement. All we have is the actual U&D schedule, which AFAIK didn't come out until last week, and the GSTL schedule that was announced a couple of weeks ago. It's quite possible that the "behind the scenes" stuff SD is claiming happened before that.
|
On May 21 2012 08:30 delo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 07:52 Naftali wrote: I honestly can't believe Sundance has the gall to criticize GOM about the Code S seed thing when the GSL partnership was pretty much the whole reason that MLG had the success that it did last year. After the epic fail of MLG Dallas, GSL brought in the talent that guaranteed exciting games. Let's face it, there are only a few foreigners that can compete with even a marginal Code A player.
The business of SC2 is still in it's infancy. Month after month we see tournaments like Lonestar Clash and Iron Squid try new, creative things that advance the scene far more than another PPV that only a few thousand people watch. If tournament organizers have to kiss the ring of somebody who's shown himself to be rather capricious and grudge-prone to get access to a large chunk of the player-base, then I truly fear that we'll see far fewer people willing take chances on something new. The 'gall'? Seriously? MLG cut a deal in which the LXP granted a code S seed to the top placing finisher at MLG events who didn't already have one - Naniwa earned that seed and GOM decided to not honor that deal after the probe rush incident. GOM is /not/ - and should not be - above criticism. The fact that MLG benefited from having the LXP because of Korean players coming over does not mean that SD shouldn't be able to make a fairly tame comment about the impoetus for exclusivity with KeSPA.
did you even read the original agreement between mlg and gom? it stated that it was for the year for gsl events technically the official year for the gsl was over by that time so the original agreement had already been fufilled.
|
On May 21 2012 09:19 jobber123rd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 09:06 Aetherial wrote: "we've got Anaheim coming up here in a couple weeks and they made this behind-the-scenes announcement that Up & Down matches would be at the same time"
That statement is not true, Up & Down matches May 21 to May 25, MLG Anaheim June 8th-10th. Sundance should apologise for that.
What happened to part 2 of the interview btw? For all we know, GOM could have originally planned to go from the Code S Finals to the first round of new GSTL season, and then to the Up & Down matches...which would have placed U&D on June 4th-8th, conflicting with Anaheim. There is not enough publicly available info on the situation to confirm or disprove Sundance's statement. All we have is the actual U&D schedule, which AFAIK didn't come out until last week, and the GSTL schedule that was announced a couple of weeks ago. It's quite possible that the "behind the scenes" stuff SD is claiming happened before that.
Right could, and there could be a flying spaghetti monster in the sky named Bob. Sundance is a CEO, he needs to talk using facts... which means evidence based. The evidence I see, and that is available to the public, shows his statement to be incorrect. If he makes a public statement like this, he needs to present the facts to the public. The real world, e.g. courts, are based in the world of facts and not rumours.
|
On May 21 2012 09:27 karis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 08:30 delo wrote:On May 21 2012 07:52 Naftali wrote: I honestly can't believe Sundance has the gall to criticize GOM about the Code S seed thing when the GSL partnership was pretty much the whole reason that MLG had the success that it did last year. After the epic fail of MLG Dallas, GSL brought in the talent that guaranteed exciting games. Let's face it, there are only a few foreigners that can compete with even a marginal Code A player.
The business of SC2 is still in it's infancy. Month after month we see tournaments like Lonestar Clash and Iron Squid try new, creative things that advance the scene far more than another PPV that only a few thousand people watch. If tournament organizers have to kiss the ring of somebody who's shown himself to be rather capricious and grudge-prone to get access to a large chunk of the player-base, then I truly fear that we'll see far fewer people willing take chances on something new. The 'gall'? Seriously? MLG cut a deal in which the LXP granted a code S seed to the top placing finisher at MLG events who didn't already have one - Naniwa earned that seed and GOM decided to not honor that deal after the probe rush incident. GOM is /not/ - and should not be - above criticism. The fact that MLG benefited from having the LXP because of Korean players coming over does not mean that SD shouldn't be able to make a fairly tame comment about the impoetus for exclusivity with KeSPA. did you even read the original agreement between mlg and gom? it stated that it was for the year for gsl events technically the official year for the gsl was over by that time so the original agreement had already been fufilled. This agreement?
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. I can't seem to find the part you're talking about and that's probably because it isn't there. You might be thinking of GOM's '2012 format change' justification /after/ the probe rush debacle, but that definitely wasn't in the original press release.
|
this is not good. look at BW, only worked for Koreans, everyone else got excluded. now look at SC2, foreigners (and koreans who dont live in Korea) are winning stuff occasionally and beating koreans constantly, the way SC2 was heading is the correct way of making an eSport GOOD
|
Sundance can say what he wants about his desire to create a global international scene, but the fact he rejects gom and ipl is very stupid in my opinion, and the reasons he says are really weird (Naniwa finally had his seed and just because gom had an arrangement with IPL, it means MLG should be rival with GOM, lol ?) I'm very supportive of Gom for everything they have done for SC2 in Korea, and for me it is by far the best league. It is too bad that MLG does want exclusivity bullshit and criticize gom.
In fact, i take the decision to never buy a MLG pass in reaction of this (and to watch free restreams of arena lol), and to buy GSL passes to support the best tournament in the world
Edit : I'm really surprised that this news is old for 4 days, and there is only 6 pages of discussion, because this is huge , and the consequences for the developement of sc2 scene are very important. Maybe it's the title, not enough provocative. A "Kespa-MLG exclusivity" would have drawn a lot more of attention for sure
|
I really don't like the thought of an organization telling teams that they're not allowed to compete outside of their events... I really hope this MLG-KeSPA exclusivity doesn't lead to this, I really, really hope not, because by the way everyone talks of KeSPA, they sound like they're incredibly totalitarian and I'd like to see my favorite players go to many different events, and not just the same two or three that are sanctioned by MLG-KeSPA.
|
United States4991 Posts
It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that.
|
On May 21 2012 10:15 SkullZ9 wrote: Sundance can say what he wants about his desire to create a global international scene, but the fact he rejects gom and ipl is very stupid in my opinion, and the reasons he says are really weird (Naniwa finally had his seed and just because gom had an arrangement with IPL, it means MLG should be rival with GOM, lol ?) I'm very supportive of Gom for everything they have done for SC2 in Korea, and for me it is by far the best league. It is too bad that MLG does want exclusivity bullshit and criticize gom.
In fact, i take the decision to never buy a MLG pass in reaction of this (and to watch free restreams of arena lol), and to buy GSL passes to support the best tournament in the world
Edit : I'm really surprised that this news is old for 4 days, and there is only 6 pages of discussion, because this is huge , and the consequences for the developement of sc2 scene are very important. Maybe it's the title, not enough provocative. A "Kespa-MLG exclusivity" would have drawn a lot more of attention for sure we already knew about the MLG Kespa exclusive deal before this Slasher interview came out...
|
On May 21 2012 10:15 SkullZ9 wrote: Sundance can say what he wants about his desire to create a global international scene, but the fact he rejects gom and ipl is very stupid in my opinion, and the reasons he says are really weird (Naniwa finally had his seed and just because gom had an arrangement with IPL, it means MLG should be rival with GOM, lol ?) I'm very supportive of Gom for everything they have done for SC2 in Korea, and for me it is by far the best league. It is too bad that MLG does want exclusivity bullshit and criticize gom.
In fact, i take the decision to never buy a MLG pass in reaction of this (and to watch free restreams of arena lol), and to buy GSL passes to support the best tournament in the world
Edit : I'm really surprised that this news is old for 4 days, and there is only 6 pages of discussion, because this is huge , and the consequences for the developement of sc2 scene are very important. Maybe it's the title, not enough provocative. A "Kespa-MLG exclusivity" would have drawn a lot more of attention for sure
Everyone knew about it already and some probably accepted that it wont really be that big a deal.
|
I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him.
Definitely support MLG
|
On May 21 2012 02:20 Azarkon wrote: Kespa said they wanted to work with GOM, but what does that involve beyond PR? Restricting players from participating in tournaments forces them to choose between one of two leagues and with Kespa's better sponsorship that's going to push GSL players to Kespa. Once they get the players, Kespa is then able to collective do whatever the f*ck they want and you're not going to be able to stop them. Kespa is very adept at boycotting whoever they don't see eye to eye with.
It begins.
I disagree. It's hard to tell at the moment.
Worse case scenerio, Blizzard comes to the rescue!
GOMTV will probably be what MBCGame was.
Then they'll host a Super Starleague where best teams from GOMTV team leagues and the best teams from Proleague will compete.
The winner gets to go to Disneyland.
On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that.
I was someone who disagreed with GOM's decision, HOWEVER, after they gave Naniwa a seed eventually (this season), all is good now IMO.
Of course the problem comes with MLG and GOM relationship: The MLG exchange program was an incentive for players to compete at MLG (rather than any other tournament). The prize was you could win a Code S Spot.
However GOMTV failed to honor that (though I don't blame GOM honestly since the Korean backlash to Naniwa probe rushing was huge. They "almost" had to do it, at least in terms of PR with Koreans).
MLG shouldn't blame GOM because of that.
In a way, it was no one's fault... except the people who complained about it in the first place.... (maybe).
|
On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong...
|
United States4991 Posts
On May 21 2012 11:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong... KeSPA got its bad rep because they slavishly followed the rules with no room for adjustment. GOM went ahead and changed the rules in order to get their way. Would KeSPA have done the same? I don't know, but I'm not sure that they would've, given how they refused to change the rules for mass outcry over completely dumb disqualifications.
|
I feel like over the next year or so more and more people will come to dislike MLG.
|
On May 21 2012 11:15 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 11:00 Assirra wrote:On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong... KeSPA got its bad rep because they slavishly followed the rules with no room for adjustment. GOM went ahead and changed the rules in order to get their way. Would KeSPA have done the same? I don't know, but I'm not sure that they would've, given how they refused to change the rules for mass outcry over completely dumb disqualifications. And basically throwing a match is by the rules? Might as well make a rule that players are forbidden to shit in the booth before someone does it and you try to defend it.
|
United States4991 Posts
On May 21 2012 11:51 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 11:15 Insane wrote:On May 21 2012 11:00 Assirra wrote:On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong... KeSPA got its bad rep because they slavishly followed the rules with no room for adjustment. GOM went ahead and changed the rules in order to get their way. Would KeSPA have done the same? I don't know, but I'm not sure that they would've, given how they refused to change the rules for mass outcry over completely dumb disqualifications. And basically throwing a match is by the rules? Might as well make a rule that players are forbidden to shit in the booth before someone does it and you try to defend it. If you can't see the difference between probe rushing and shitting in the booth then I don't know what to tell you. There's no rule against not putting effort into a match, and KeSPA wasn't known for making up idiotic rulings on the spot; they were known for making idiotic rulings ahead of time and then sticking with them regardless of how much sense it would make to change the rules. Perhaps you lack experience with KeSPA, seeing as how you joined in 2010..?
|
Still waiting on my summit Sundance.
Make it happen.
|
On May 21 2012 10:12 delo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 09:27 karis wrote:On May 21 2012 08:30 delo wrote:On May 21 2012 07:52 Naftali wrote: I honestly can't believe Sundance has the gall to criticize GOM about the Code S seed thing when the GSL partnership was pretty much the whole reason that MLG had the success that it did last year. After the epic fail of MLG Dallas, GSL brought in the talent that guaranteed exciting games. Let's face it, there are only a few foreigners that can compete with even a marginal Code A player.
The business of SC2 is still in it's infancy. Month after month we see tournaments like Lonestar Clash and Iron Squid try new, creative things that advance the scene far more than another PPV that only a few thousand people watch. If tournament organizers have to kiss the ring of somebody who's shown himself to be rather capricious and grudge-prone to get access to a large chunk of the player-base, then I truly fear that we'll see far fewer people willing take chances on something new. The 'gall'? Seriously? MLG cut a deal in which the LXP granted a code S seed to the top placing finisher at MLG events who didn't already have one - Naniwa earned that seed and GOM decided to not honor that deal after the probe rush incident. GOM is /not/ - and should not be - above criticism. The fact that MLG benefited from having the LXP because of Korean players coming over does not mean that SD shouldn't be able to make a fairly tame comment about the impoetus for exclusivity with KeSPA. did you even read the original agreement between mlg and gom? it stated that it was for the year for gsl events technically the official year for the gsl was over by that time so the original agreement had already been fufilled. This agreement? Show nested quote +At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. I can't seem to find the part you're talking about and that's probably because it isn't there. You might be thinking of GOM's '2012 format change' justification /after/ the probe rush debacle, but that definitely wasn't in the original press release.
sorry. I was actually referring to the mlg announcement which only stated that it was for the gsl 2011 season which was over by the time the mlg championships were. I was unaware that the gom announcement actually said something different.
|
On May 21 2012 11:32 avc wrote: I feel like over the next year or so more and more people will come to dislike MLG.
Standard for MLG The past decade it seemed like everyone in the esports world hated/shitted on MLG, because they hosted consoles games and not PC, and yet PC leagues died out left and right while MLG survived.
|
On May 17 2012 08:26 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 08:07 Primadog wrote: Only sundance can make a monopoly look so good. What? It is a load of crap - the same corporationism and desire to total domination and monopol bullshit. I like decentralized structure of SC2 - that there are a lot of clans, communities and small tournaments. It is easy to arrange and do a tournament. In fact players can be very independent and still earn a solid amount of money. Of course it is not a good situation for big molochs like Kespa or MLG. Tournaments and players outside their structures make them earn less money. For example why should I pay for MLG Arena if there is probably a few more tournaments with probably evenly fun and dramatic matches - even if participants are not exactly on par. So yes, the current decentralized state of SC2 is the best state for me. What's best for large companies right now is what's best for the scene.
When sc2 is something profitable, only then can we be picky and choosy with the way that it's run. Before that point, the only thing that matters is getting it to that point.
|
On May 21 2012 11:51 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 11:15 Insane wrote:On May 21 2012 11:00 Assirra wrote:On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong... KeSPA got its bad rep because they slavishly followed the rules with no room for adjustment. GOM went ahead and changed the rules in order to get their way. Would KeSPA have done the same? I don't know, but I'm not sure that they would've, given how they refused to change the rules for mass outcry over completely dumb disqualifications. And basically throwing a match is by the rules? Might as well make a rule that players are forbidden to shit in the booth before someone does it and you try to defend it. well Kespa wouldnt even use a shit system that would allow 2 have matches that dont even matter anymore. so u can go balblbalbal would they have done it. cause it will never happen.
|
I think its good to have two large organizations in the Starcraft scene. Hopefully one day we will have the same synergy as the NFC, AFC in the NFL.
|
On May 21 2012 13:13 StreetWise wrote: I think its good to have two large organizations in the Starcraft scene. Hopefully one day we will have the same synergy as the NFC, AFC in the NFL.
I like the way you are thinking. I don't often realize that the NFL is a pair of conferences.
|
Slasher wheres the second part of the interview?
|
the NFL has been essentially 1 org for a long time. same salary minimums and caps/ etc
nothing wrong with one unified main org however thats for team games
starcraft 2 is more like MMA than basketball/soccer/football . In this scenario in real life we have a UFC monopoly with smaller orgs, and people like the system yes, however is it truly the best it could be?
not really imo. the ufc got lucky , did the right thing, and now they get to be the monopoly and reap the rewards and get all the money being the main org entitles. Thats all MLG is trying to do, they are trying to get that money and be the main org just like UFC
cant blame them. its the goal of a company, period. they would be retarded to not have that goal.
but is the monopoly style really the most entertaining? i dunno. Many would say "look at kespa 2004-2008 and SC2 in 2011 and ask yourself which is more entertaining. obviously SC2 because we got to have more leagues, and the entire world participating instead of just korea"
however i will defend broodwar/kespa here and say no. Thats not true at all. Anyone could have been like idra and got on a korean progame team, they just werent skilled enough.
and the REASON there wasnt worldwide competition is because THERE SIMPLY WAS NOT THE VIEWER DEMAND for the esport product. Starcraft 2 sparked viewer demand for the esport product because it was easier on the eyes to watch and globally more people were just interested in playing it and competing because it was a new game. But the system itself compared between KESPA (monopoly) and 2011 sc2 (free market) isnt a good comparison because kespa did what it could with the global demand that existed at the time. Sc2 would have been exatly like kespa (only korea, nothing else) if put in the same situation it had nothing to do with the monopoly style really, anyone could host their BW tournaments it just had zero viewers
so its either up to us as fans to demand and work to create something different, or free market principles will take over and likely MLG will be the UFC of starcraft 2 (or any 1vs1 esport)
actually scratch that, i forgot about fighter games like street fighter. MLG doesnt control that, no one does really
there are currently massive IPL like street fighter tournaments and events without any "ufc" type of monopoly and honestly yeah, i can really look at the current street fighter scene and say the current system i think thats definitely more entertaining than one main UFC-like org controlling it all
so well see i guess we as fans need to try to prevent that UFC-like org from coming alive. but alas, it is the nature of the beast and free market principles. i dont think we can stop it
|
In what textbook is a monopoly the sole possible endgame in a free market?
|
sundance is a dana white wannabe
|
On May 21 2012 17:46 baby elephant wrote: sundance is a dana white wannabe
haha, I was thinking exactly the same!
|
i like how he will try to include Dreamhack and IEM, so some BW pros for europe as well =)
ed: and ESL ofc
|
On May 21 2012 17:35 Primadog wrote: In what textbook is a monopoly the sole possible endgame in a free market?
i guess its just my own assumptions but its happened every time it can in human history.
humans seek to have the power so in every system where wealth is generated such as a free market (or socialism where the state gets all the wealth) eventually there will rise one entity that dominates the others and is top dog and gets to have a monopoly. take the UFC and MMA for example, microsoft/apple and operating systems (i consider microsoft and apple to be a single entity now. so its a single monopoly), NFL and football, NBA and basketball. its just inevitable that this will happen in a free market because eventually one entity grows more power than the others and dominates the others
the difference is in socialism the state decides who gets to have the monopoly and that monopoly usually fails and collapses, and in a free market system the most ruthless and intelligent company gets to have the monopoly which usually turns a profit
|
On May 21 2012 18:03 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:35 Primadog wrote: In what textbook is a monopoly the sole possible endgame in a free market? i guess its just my own assumptions but its happened every time it can in human history. humans seek to have the power so in every system where wealth is generated such as a free market (or socialism where the state gets all the wealth) eventually there will rise one entity that dominates the others and is top dog and gets to have a monopoly. take the UFC and MMA for example, microsoft/apple and operating systems (i consider microsoft and apple to be a single entity now. so its a single monopoly), NFL and football, NBA and basketball. its just inevitable that this will happen in a free market because eventually one entity grows more power than the others and dominates the others the difference is in socialism the state decides who gets to have the monopoly and that monopoly usually fails and collapses, and in a free market system the most ruthless and intelligent company gets to have the monopoly which usually turns a profit Holy moly... Depends on the market itself if a monopoly, a duopoly or other x-poly will arise. You will never have many Entities offering big airliners (you in fact have mostly 2, Boeing and Airbus), but you will have many entities offering food, or fastfood. As a rule of thumb, the more (longterm) cost intense the market, the less entities will try to compete.
But well, I personally dont see much positive in Kespa transferring into SC2. They are adding more of a restriction to SC2 imo and it will hurt SC2 (with its amazing tournament structure).
|
On May 21 2012 11:57 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 11:51 Assirra wrote:On May 21 2012 11:15 Insane wrote:On May 21 2012 11:00 Assirra wrote:On May 21 2012 10:40 Insane wrote:It's good to see Sundance come out in support of Naniwa and call GOM on that bullshit . I don't know if KeSPA will work out the greatest or not, but I'm willing to see them give it a shot for SC2, considering what GOM pulled with that. If you think Kespa wouldn't have done the same you are quite frankly crazy. Hell it probably be way worse. Remember, this is the same organisation that disqualified a player for typing ppp wrong... KeSPA got its bad rep because they slavishly followed the rules with no room for adjustment. GOM went ahead and changed the rules in order to get their way. Would KeSPA have done the same? I don't know, but I'm not sure that they would've, given how they refused to change the rules for mass outcry over completely dumb disqualifications. And basically throwing a match is by the rules? Might as well make a rule that players are forbidden to shit in the booth before someone does it and you try to defend it. If you can't see the difference between probe rushing and shitting in the booth then I don't know what to tell you. There's no rule against not putting effort into a match, and KeSPA wasn't known for making up idiotic rulings on the spot; they were known for making idiotic rulings ahead of time and then sticking with them regardless of how much sense it would make to change the rules. Perhaps you lack experience with KeSPA, seeing as how you joined in 2010..? is this still in discussion?
in a tournament the willingness to win of the participants is precondition to the whole model either written or not
|
On May 21 2012 17:55 Naphal wrote: i like how he will try to include Dreamhack and IEM, so some BW pros for europe as well =)
ed: and ESL ofc
always had the impression that ESL is a part of IEM in some form.
|
On May 21 2012 21:21 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:55 Naphal wrote: i like how he will try to include Dreamhack and IEM, so some BW pros for europe as well =)
ed: and ESL ofc always had the impression that ESL is a part of IEM in some form.
It's vice versa. IEM is a tournament series hosted by the ESL. http://www.esl-world.net/masters/
|
On May 21 2012 18:03 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 17:35 Primadog wrote: In what textbook is a monopoly the sole possible endgame in a free market? i guess its just my own assumptions but its happened every time it can in human history. humans seek to have the power so in every system where wealth is generated such as a free market (or socialism where the state gets all the wealth) eventually there will rise one entity that dominates the others and is top dog and gets to have a monopoly. take the UFC and MMA for example, microsoft/apple and operating systems (i consider microsoft and apple to be a single entity now. so its a single monopoly), NFL and football, NBA and basketball. its just inevitable that this will happen in a free market because eventually one entity grows more power than the others and dominates the others the difference is in socialism the state decides who gets to have the monopoly and that monopoly usually fails and collapses, and in a free market system the most ruthless and intelligent company gets to have the monopoly which usually turns a profit
And yet, merely having a monopoly is entirely different from anti-competitive practices. And the way North American sports associations work doesn't necessarily have to be a role model for everything else. Let's take the actual most popular game of the world, football. FIFA's members are national associations, most of which are team federations. It is a bottom up representation of team interests by concept.
Few people are denying MLG's right to act in their own interests, but those interests are just that, their own. And those are not necessarily always the best interests of the industry. It really is tiring how they play the "sake of the industry" card each move they make.
|
I have been super busy this weekend at MLG and with Proleague/GSL, but I will make sure the rest of the interview gets posted sometime today here.
|
Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama").
* Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect.
Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996
I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is).
|
Alright, here is the FULL interview, which has to be split up into multiple parts, and will include many of the same answers as before:
Gamespot: Sundance you just got back from Korea after announcing the new partnership with KeSPA, what are your initial thoughts?
MLG CEO Sundance DiGiovanni: It was good, we've been accomplishing a lot on these trips. Obviously the KeSPA part of it was a pretty big part, we're working on some more things which we're pretty excited about, but the KeSPA partnership was the big one. They came to us and said they wanted to talk about a relationship, and content distribution in and out of South Korea, that was obviously a big one because we think they represent the best talent in the world for one of the games we run, and the goal is to have the best players compete. The details of it, there's only a little bit released so far, it's pretty deep and a long-term view relationship. I'm excited to get it started, excited for them to come to Anaheim, excited to push more of it out to the public in the form of real, tangible results.
What made you go to KeSPA to make this all happen?
SD: There's been a lot of growth within the [competitive gaming] scene, not just MLG but all the organizations I think are seeing growth. Maybe some at a greater rate than others, but there's only in terms of opportunistic thinking and being able to expand when you're talking about a global presence. There's two or three things that are left right so this is one, China is one, but this one is really relevant because a lot of the history around one of our most popular games (StarCraft 2) is locked up in South Korea with KeSPA. There's legendary players, there's a history there, but there's a certain way of doing things, that we think has been lacking to a degree. People like yourself saying 'yeah it's just a matter of time before they come over, things are going to change' and there's truth to that. So that barrier is now taken care of.
We're excited, Blizzard has been really supportive of this and they were eager to see it happen. It's crazy to think that the last time we were over there we were meeting with GSL and now it's shifted to KeSPA, but we're very happy and I think one of the things we're also going to try do is to try and focus on winning some of the people who were the foreign players in the western community, and the fans of all this, to understand a little more of the history of KeSPA, because I think that it's misunderstood to a degree. I mean they are a very serious organization in the way they operate, and that's gotten misinterpreted at times. There's other times when they've done things that have obviously not been as well received by the community as they may have liked, but that's shifted now, because it's global now. They own a very important part of this but we bring a very important part as well. It's a dynamic partnership in that regard. We're going to work on softening their image to the western fans.
Can you explain the difference between the partnership between KeSPA, OGN, and IEG?
SD: KeSPA is the governing body around the activity within South Korea. OGN is a broadcaster so when you think of OGN, think of a Viacom who has a bunch of different channels, or a Time Warner who has a bunch of different outlets. OGN is a company who has a MTV-like KPop channel, they have soap operas, news, and they have gaming. They're a broadcaster that also operates and runs tournaments. They have the broadcast deal with KeSPA to be the official broadcaster right now - as of today - then those rights, the KeSPA rights are owned by another group, called IEG, who's also our partner in this. So IEG is essentially like - think of it like when FOX bids for Major League Baseball, the NFL, they bid on these things and have the rights to broadcast matches. It's a bigger scale in Korea as the value in those distribution rights is greater than it is in the US because you're dealing with broadcast television and the advertising dollars that are associated with that. Yeah it has taken a bit of a hit as of late because they haven't had the latest game, but Brood War is still incredibly popular in South Korea.
What Blizzard is working towards, and what we're working towards, is trying to convert those masses slowly. First what you're going to see is this blended OGN BW/SC2 event which is going to be interesting, then you're going to see some team stuff, then you're going to see some exhibition stuff around Heart of The Swarm with us, and then you'l see a gradual transition to full-time adoption. I think there may still be some Brood War activity in the future to be honest with you. As this happens some of those pieces are going to end up being broadcasted by OGN, some are going to be broadcast by potentially another group, and we're going to be helping with the distribution and monetization of that content on a global scale.
IEG is a broadcaster too, so they have two sports channels within Korea, they do a lot of Basketball. The owner was a former team owner and board member within KeSPA, and a strong ally of ours. He got Artosis started in the business, brought IdrA over to train and play in a Korean house - this guy's been around and he's got a very strong position within South Korea on a media, entertainment, gaming point of view.
OGN is not exclusive terms though, correct?
SD: The OGN component - something else is going on there and we're in negotiations with them, and we're talking to them, as are other people. We get a lot of good intel on people making trips to Korea and try and set stuff up but we're really uniquely positioned in this regard because the way we handled ourselves and the way we run our business, and the long-term view that we take.
We talked about the differences between KeSPA and OGN. Is OGN allowed to talk to a DreamHack, IEM, and make a deal with those leagues while you have exclusivity with KeSPA?
SD: They are allowed to talk about deals the question that comes back to is are they allowed to do a deal around StarCraft. There's a rights issue there with StarCraft. If you want to do something with OGN around StarCraft, there's procedures to be followed. For a game like League of Legends, it's a whole other story.
So one of the biggest questions here regarding the new partnership is the announced exclusivity between yourselves and KeSPA and what this means going forward. What actions are we to see from this?
SD: What this means is that outside of Korea, we're the official partner for KeSPA. We're the tournament KeSPA players are allowed to play at the moment, by letter of the agreement. Our plan is to work with some of the partners that we have to bring those players there as well. I'm going to try my best to arrange something with DreamHack as we have a strong relationship with them. We're going to talk to the [Electronic Sports League's] IEM about working with them. Those are the two groups that I've been in contact with and have been thinking about. It could go deeper, but the point of this is that KeSPA takes this very seriously and they want to align with like-minded people.
They've made their choice and they've given us a bit of a directive in terms of how they want to handle it inside of Korea and we're gonna let them do that. We're happy to partner with them, we're happy to have broadcast outlet capabilities within South Korea for MLG content as well. We're going to go and run with it out here, with (GameSpot owner) CBS Interactive being a partner on the distribution side, we think we can do some pretty big things. The online commentary and everything else popped up of course around exclusivity, but without exclusivity there's no leverage. The point of leverage is that we need to be able to monetize this. If we get over-saturation with this next level, that's not going to be good for anybody. What we're doing is we're creating a partnership not for what exists today, but for what is going to exist next year, the year after that, and the year after that.
What I can say very confidently is that KeSPA shares this view, OGN shares this view, IEG shares this view, and those are the people we're working with over there. We did some work with GSL for some time, and that didn't end the way I would have liked it to, but that's in the past. They chose the direction they wanted to go in so we've moved on. Not saying we'll never work with them again but it's yet to be seen how those players in the SC2 association (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324843) are going to migrate over now. KeSPA is the big organization there, the ones with the sponsor dollars, the revenue, and the broadcast deal. In the current scene over there, I think some teams are struggling which will be interesting to see how they react. We want to be a bridge for the existing teams and players to be able to get out from underneath that KeSPA ban that was put in place when those players went to play in GSL for StarCraft 2. A way for them to get access to both our tournaments , and those in South Korea, it'll just take some time.
There is some concern since this was announced that StarCraft 2 esports or competitive gaming as a whole will be hurt by limiting the Brood War stars access outside of South Korea. Do you think this is an issue at all?
SD: No one's saying that they have to go to us, but KeSPA runs their organization the way they run it. If they're not going to send their players to a certain league, that's their perogative. What I can do is take a partner and sit in front of KeSPA and I can say "Have you met my friends from DreamHack? They run a fantastic event in the Winter, the Summer, in the Spring, look at these great locations, TV, look at the arena, I think we should do something with them". I can do that, but I can't force them to because they have a different relationship with the teams and players than we're used to in the west. Now over time will that soften? Most likely to a degree, but right now I wouldn't count on it. Right now we have to work with what's available to us. I can't accelerate the process, it doesn't happen over night. If the community has a better option and solution to this that's going to keep KeSPA happy, the players earning the level of income they need to earn, and the scene from over-saturating itself, I'm happy to hear it but I don't think you're going to find something that's better than this. The rest of the year is about getting our feet wet, and next year is about going off on a global scale.
Are DreamHack and IEM events you expect to approach, and is it going to be next year or possibly come this year?
SD: Plan on heading to DreamHack Winter with a bunch of our new Korean friends from KeSPA. I don't see why not, I reached out to [DreamHack CEO] Robert Ohlén already, will be trying to talk to him sometime this week. IEM there's deeper stuff we're talking about with them, just trying to line things up time wise. In terms of a timeline, I don't see why we would need to wait till next year to at least kick things off. Are the [Brood War pros] going to compete in tournaments this year? I doubt it - but can they make appearances and play show matches? I don't see why not. I have to check with Blizzard, I have to check with KeSPA, and make sure everything works with everyone. I'm also not going to walk a bunch of players in and have someone incur a bunch of costs and unreasonable demands so I have to make sure we do something that makes sense, Being a tournament operator I know that every time we add something new to the event there's logistics and there's cost. There's only a certain amount of hours in a day, I don't want this to get lopsided. The other thing that really important is that, these players, I want them to go out and have this experience that the GSL players had when they came to the states last year to our events. The hype crowds, the high energy. They've got their Korean version of that but the international version is a bit different.
I'm only one organization, I'm not representing all the leagues, or the teams. I'm trying to set something up that works for my company first because that's where I work, for the players and community that we serve, because if I don't take care of my company I can't serve either of those. Then comes the teams that are trying to put money in the players pockets and make sure that they're able to play the games the way they want to. Then I've got my publishing partners who are also at the top of the list. We've created this partnership with KeSPA for flow in both directions and where we both have the opportunity to grow. if everyone bears with me, they'll see what that turns into in terms of the DreamHacks and the IEM's of the world as well.
You mentioned over-saturation as something to look out for. Do you believe there's too much esports or StarCraft content right now?
SD: There's some things we can learn from KeSPA and there's some things we learned from GSL. There's a structure and system for this that can work really well. The problem right now is that we've got all these different events, no tie-in with each other, no continuation, different rosters of players for each, there's challenges we have to get through. It's no secret for a long time we've been trying to figure out the fixed location thing and we're doing it here in New York City for now. The plan is to have a global organization that runs a unified league with meaningful matches happening in multiple locations. So if I could have matches that are happening in South Korea, matches that are happening North America, Europe, South America, that at the end of the day, week, month, they relate somehow, that's going to be great for everyone. Some people now go 'oh this event's player pool isn't as great as the last one, I'm just going to tune in on Sunday' - you kind of have to borrow from traditional sports a little more I think to get to the right place, in terms of a scale and growth perspective.
Earlier you talked about the players not playing in the official tournaments, along with the showmatches in Anaheim, is this based upon their own decisions due to lack of practice time, or is there something more?
SD: These guys are in spring training right now while everyone else is in the regular season. They're not going to be caught up in a lot of ways and although some of them have been playing the game for a while, I think what we want to do is make sure they're eased into it. We had talked about them playing in the open in Anaheim, and what we decided was that, lets not rush it, we have two more events this year, lets see how things go. Let them go through the first season in Korea and see what happens with that and how comfortable they are. Try and set them up with some of the folks who are out there as current GSL Code A/Code S-level players, and see how they feel. The players are ready to go. The teams are making sure not to rush with their guys out, they want to do this properly, take their time, so it's going to be a bit more ceremonious than what the community wants in terms of the timing and such but we're half-way through the year. I think we'll start to see stuff shake free by the next event, but I can't promise anything because the players and teams need to think they're ready.
If the Brood War players want to sign up to play in Anaheim, could they?
SD: Absolutely. We'll have some spots open for them if they'd like to. I guess we haven't announced who's coming yet..
Will any of these names be showing up in Anaheim?
SD: Yeah.
Of the ones I mentioned?
SD: Yeah. The plan is have KeSPA fully represented in Anaheim, with each team represented. That's as much as I can give you.
Now going the other way in this partnership, with the potential of seeing foreign teams and players that compete in MLG head over to the Korean KeSPA events. What will that entail, will we be seeing foreign players head to KeSPA by the next season?
SD: I can't put a timeline on it, but yes eventually you will. No details at the moment, but you will see foreigners playing in KeSPA's flavor of StarCraft in Korea.
One of the other things we haven't talked about is now I have to talk to some of the western teams. I have to say 'hey you know I have an opportunity here, how do you want to come together on it'. This week I hope to have the chance to get to talk to some of the guys from each of the teams and try to come up with something stable, that works, we'll plug you into it. If we can't, I'll make the introduction but you're on your own. I can broker a lot of this stuff but only if there's stability. If you rewind and look at the history of this in Brood War, when they started bringing the foreign players over, a lot of the guys we're familiar with today like IdrA and Tyler, were over there training with KeSPA players, and they got their name out and established themselves through that process.
I think there's a good opportunity to do that again. One of the big challenges is the KeSPA house structure is different than the current house structure for a lot of the other Korean teams. Not saying the StarCraft 2 teams don't take it as seriously, but there's limited financial resources for some of the SC2 teams. My hope is for training environments in North America, and South Korea, with players and coaches going both ways, and where this isn't an 'exchange program', but there's actually league play where you've got everyone playing in all international areas.
KeSPA released their own version of the press release, which did not specify either the exclusivity, or the multi-year dealings of the partnership. Is this only an editing discrepancy, and why was it written this way?
SD: In terms of the exclusivity part of it, I don't say this to come off as disrespectful but in their eyes they are the only ones over there. It's Korea and it's KeSPA, that's it. I'm not gonna lie and tell you I was running in there hoping I was going to do a non-exclusive deal because what sense does that make, you saw what that got me last time. It got me Naniwa not getting what he had earned, and I'm not going to do that again. From an operator standpoint, you could grab anyone from the other organizations and they all would have said they'd sign an exclusive deal too.
In terms of multi-year, well, it's June, we just started this thing, of course it's multi-year. From the North American compared to the Korean stand point of it, we have a memorandum of understanding. The business terms, not all of them are in the press release, snippets are. Some are customized for what the Eastern audience wants to see and wants to read, and others are for ours. There's certain things in there for us that are going to help go and do things like sell against the content, get people excited about distributing, get people excited about having these players come over.
The partnership is the same on both sides, the way the difference in press releases is the semantics, what was chosen to be pushed where. Press releases in the states - barely anybody reads them, they're for business purposes. It's not written for the community, it's for us to be able to propel the business.
Originally the first partnership in Korea was with GomTV one which deteriorated by the end of last year and has been briefly mentioned here. What happened with those guys that led you to go the route you have now with KeSPA?
SD: [GomTV's StarCraft 2 Manager] Chae "Mr. Chae" Jung Won is a fantastic guy, I respect him and think he does tremendous work for Gom. Mr. Chae has a lot of bosses, and there's a lot of complexity over there within GSL and Gretech in general and you know…we pushed some buttons and they came after us to a degree I think based upon the way they behaved.
What buttons were you pushing?
SD: You know, we grew really quickly and started making some money, wanted to do more and the players came back saying nice things about us, and it's like…competition? Partnership? It's like, you're not gonna do it the way we want to so they went out and got a new partner (The IGN ProLeague (http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=218150&cid=0&kind=8)) which is great, and I hope it continues to work. But I can't worry about that, we've got Anaheim coming up here in a couple weeks and they made this behind-the-scenes announcement that Up & Down matches would be at the same time. Well all of the players chose us. I think that should tell you something.
This doesn't have to happen. We've been playing chess with these guys for over a year, it's not checkers, it's the long game. From our point we've gone as far as we thought we were going to get, and now we're going to start to build for the next part of it. I hope that all the players in the SC2Association in Korea come along, and I think they can and will. As far as GomTV and GSL, I have no idea what's going to happen to them now they're not the only league running. When they were the only league running, there were not able to get to the scale as expected which is why KeSPA has come back, because Blizzard wanted them to. I mean it'll be fine and there's enough going on over there if everything goes properly, it's a question whether KeSPA and GomTV can get along, which isn't my concern.
What caused the partnership to turn into a chess battle?
SD: Everything was going to great and then suddenly they made us an offer that we didn't really want to take, with costs associated with it, and from there it went sideways. They came over and went to the event in Atlantic City and that was kind of the beginning of the end. After that we said alright guys, that's cool, you have fun, we're not interested. I don't have any ill-will towards them - I don't like the way they handled some things - but it's business. I don't take it personal, it's good for us to be in the position where there's multiple parties who push each other to innovate.
The SC2 Association out in Korea is independent but more close with GomTV than they are with KeSPA. Right now the SC2 Association/GomTV players aren't allowed to play in the KeSPA leagues, how do you believe the current Korean SC2 players, all of them champions of MLG, are going to perceive this new partnership?
SD: I think they're probably waiting to hear what's going to happen. Luckily we're going to have a bunch of them here this weekend at the MLG Spring Arena 2 to talk to them. We have people on the ground in South Korea who work for us, are relaying messages from the team houses. My goal is to help with this transition. I don't want any of these guys to get knocked off. I've grown to like a lot of these guys as I've gotten to know them. You know what I'd love to see Nestea and Flash face-off in a meaningful match, I think that'd be ****ing awesome. I think it'd be great, I'm going to try and make it happen sooner rather than later. Now of course there's certain political components, and I don't know if you'll see that in South Korea anytime soon, but I think you could probably see it at our next event after Anaheim at the MLG Summer Championships or the fourth event later in the year.
There's a lot of work to be done, there's cultural differences, language barriers, a long flight, but my goal is to try to get through this quickly, and so that no one gets penalized for just pursuing their passion. That's my view of the world right now, the KeSPA view is theirs, the SC2 Association is theirs. We had people meeting with the SC2 Association tonight in Seoul, and so far initial reports are good, but it's going to take a little while. Initially people are going to be shaky, maybe a little concerned or annoyed, but eventually it's just hey, lets make good games and tournaments for players to play in.
If I had to predict, I think you're going to see the KeSPA teams potentially attempt to expand their rosters a little bit…maybe. They'll take a look at some of these players who are top notch and see if they can attract them. Now, is that going to be fair? Probably not. Is it guaranteed to happen? Definitely not. Will KeSPA go back to 10 teams? I don't know. What would the two teams be? I know what the buy-in is, I know it's pretty expensive, I know it's a big deal. I don't know if the current SC2 teams could afford it. It's a free market economy basically and if the teams with the deepest pockets are going to go and try and sign players, they're probably going to. Is it going to stretch this way and and come towards teams in the States or Europe? They may. I'm hoping to talk to these teams and work something out, to solidify these teams.
KeSPA hasn't exactly had the best reputation in the Western community from their history, from their lawsuit with Blizzard not to long ago, dating back to when they denied GomTV access to their players during the original GomTV Brood War events. Why partner with them, with what they've shown to the world outside Korea?
SD: In their mind they've had no reason to do something for the bigger scene outside Korea. This is a Korean initiative with a Korean broadcast inside Korea. But now things are global, they see how the scene has shifted, and we're going to work with them. The fact of it is, we struck a deal with the other Korean league, didn't work out. Okay, I'm going to go to the other Korean league and wait for them to be ready. I want to be partnered and aligned with the place that's got the richest tradition and the best players. There's tons of companies that have taken stances and done things to protect their territory that aren't the most well-received, but we have a very inflammatory community who has a hard time…digesting all the facts, and having a conversation. Things turn into anger-fests and name-calling pretty quickly.
Now I'm not saying what KeSPA has done in the past is with no ill-will, but what I am saying is that I've met with them, I've broken bread with these people, I like them. If in 3 months I'm looking at this and saying this is such a headache, but I don't how that's gonna happen. Getting the best players in the room is all I've ever wanted to do, whether it's around Halo, StarCraft, League of Legends or any other game, and KeSPA's got some amazing history and some amazing players. We're just talking about the ones they have today. They also have a system of developing new ones, and there's a lot of guys we haven't heard of yet and will be here soon. That's something I'd like to transfer to our scene.
Although online live video is the focus at MLG, you've hinted at TV broadcasts at different times. With this new partnership, will we be seeing MLG on OGN-Korean TV anytime soon?
SD: No comment.
Will we be seeing KeSPA tournaments on MLG?
SD: I can answer that at Anaheim probably. We're working on what we're going to do with it. There's a couple of different options. On MLG could be through our site, through our distribution partner CBS Interactive, take a big check and broker it through YouTube, who knows there's a lot of options. If you follow some of the trails of some of my tweets around YouTube and PPV and the premium channel initiative, there's a lot of options for this content. There's a lot of demand from not only the community, but from the people who control the distribution platforms. We're going to go around and talk to some folks at E3 and then here in NYC, and come back with the best overall plan.
What does Blizzard think about all of these wheelings and dealings with MLG and KeSPA, GomTV and IPL, etc?
SD: Well I think they let folks operate but we work very closely with them, everything we do is discussed with them, vetted with them, the overall scene and growth of the scene, what we're trying to accomplish. We're a tournament operator for a few of their events in the upcoming months. There was a time when I sat in the office with [Blizzard CEO] Mike Morhaime, and he said Korea is the center of the esports universe, now when I sit with him he says 'you guys are it'. The next next piece I think after we've figured out the online broadcast component is tradition, that being TV. Now we've got that figured out in South Korea, can we figure it out here? I think so. I think fall is too soon, but I hope to be able to do it next year. Everyone wants to see it on TV so I'm going to try and make that happen.
So right before Anaheim hits I'll be seeing you at E3 as MLG has a big booth there, with us at GameSpot actually. I'm not privy to information though so I'd like to know what we'll be seeing there. Games? Players?
SD: Only thing I can say is StarCraft will be there with two other games. No details on players yet but if I could, I'd have Flash at E3 with me hanging out, playing StarCraft. If I could! Not saying I can, he has some stuff going on in South Korea around that time.
|
Fascinating interview, Slasher. Great work!
|
Don't worry. Sundance is only killing the American SC2 scene.
If I wanted a Korean tournament I would go to Korea...
|
On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is).
Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down?
|
slasher is doing god's work
|
On May 21 2012 10:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him. Definitely support MLG
Dude is a businessman (and a great talker, yes), no esports-hero. I never trusted him. Do people know that he signed Halo Teams to exlusively play at MLG in the past? Thats the Kespa mindset right there.
If MLG/Kespa splits the scene and destroys other events, I'll probably throw up and leave the scene.
|
Does Sundance seriously thinks people will watch SC2 on TV in the West?
|
On May 23 2012 07:33 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him. Definitely support MLG Dude is a businessman (and a great talker, yes), no esports-hero. I never trusted him. Do people know that he signed Halo Teams to exlusively play at MLG in the past? Thats the Kespa mindset right there. If MLG/Kespa splits the scene and destroys other events, I'll probably throw up and leave the scene.
The interview clearly states thats KeSPA is only sending players to partnered events. Sundance is saying he has 0 control whether or not KeSPA players will be allowed to go to other events, he can say and I quote "Oh here is my friend Dreamhack, they run a great program." So if it is split, don't blame sundance, blame kespa.
|
On May 23 2012 07:33 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him. Definitely support MLG Dude is a businessman (and a great talker, yes), no esports-hero. I never trusted him. Do people know that he signed Halo Teams to exlusively play at MLG in the past? Thats the Kespa mindset right there. If MLG/Kespa splits the scene and destroys other events, I'll probably throw up and leave the scene.
ditto
|
On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down?
No it was the players themselves who chose because it's already hard enough to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague so why kill yourself over this lesser tournament?
|
On May 23 2012 08:02 JeffGoldblum wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down? No it was the players themselves who chose because it's already hard enough to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague so why kill yourself over this lesser tournament?
Since when do players have the right to give their opinion in Korean BW progaming ? KeSPA has an opinion and it will be the same for everyone.
|
On May 23 2012 07:47 Balgrog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:33 00Visor wrote:On May 21 2012 10:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him. Definitely support MLG Dude is a businessman (and a great talker, yes), no esports-hero. I never trusted him. Do people know that he signed Halo Teams to exlusively play at MLG in the past? Thats the Kespa mindset right there. If MLG/Kespa splits the scene and destroys other events, I'll probably throw up and leave the scene. The interview clearly states thats KeSPA is only sending players to partnered events. Sundance is saying he has 0 control whether or not KeSPA players will be allowed to go to other events, he can say and I quote "Oh here is my friend Dreamhack, they run a great program." So if it is split, don't blame sundance, blame kespa.
Yet he will be the one to choose and pick "friends". Yes, it makes 100% sense for MLG. Everyone else would likely do the same. MLG happens to be one of the biggest players in the market, well established and professional enough to attract this deal with KeSPA. It is absolutely beneficial to them and convenient. Without no doubt, this arrangement puts a certain power into their hands both economically and politically within the scene. While one cannot fault MLG for acting in their own interests, there should be thoughts about regulations in the first place. It's the same reason why anti-trust and competitive laws exist.
In my opinion, MLG is wise enough not to take rash steps. But one would be foolish not to be aware of mistakes that have been historically made over and over again- in this industry and many others.
|
On May 23 2012 07:33 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 10:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I always love reading Sundance's responses. Dude's sincere, and I tend to agree with him. Definitely support MLG Dude is a businessman (and a great talker, yes), no esports-hero. I never trusted him. Do people know that he signed Halo Teams to exlusively play at MLG in the past? Thats the Kespa mindset right there. If MLG/Kespa splits the scene and destroys other events, I'll probably throw up and leave the scene.
And because of that MLG survived where other PC gaming leagues in the NA scene have fallen?
|
For anyone who was too lazy to actually read it, you can get audio by putting into translate.google.com
|
Slasher thanks for posting the whole thing
|
On May 23 2012 08:15 LunaSea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:02 JeffGoldblum wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down? No it was the players themselves who chose because it's already hard enough to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague so why kill yourself over this lesser tournament? Since when do players have the right to give their opinion in Korean BW progaming ? KeSPA has an opinion and it will be the same for everyone.
They were fully allowed to participate in it as much as they wanted. It was just too much at one time for them to prepare for and so they elected to not do it and the classic failed.
|
On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down?
I remember watching tasteless doing GOM BW. Then I remember not watching it anymore and everything switching to SC2. Did those events happen together? Did Kespa kill my english BW?
I agree MLG would be foolish to not deal with Kespa after Blizz gave them the green light, but I'm still very unhappy that the possibility even exists that SC2 could get locked down in a rigid and unyielding structure. I may incite rioting at events if such silly rules as no celebrating and typing 'ppp' to ask for a pause being punishable because 'The Rules' say that it's 'pp' or nothing.
Also, a shelf full of small tourney trophies looks way better then one big MLG/Kespa cup.
|
I don't agree with a lot of Sundance's stance and POV, but you gotta admire an owner that's willing to talk in public.
|
On May 23 2012 05:00 Slasher wrote:
What Blizzard is working towards, and what we're working towards, is trying to convert those masses slowly.
This is disgusting. Those "masses" aren't some raw material that can harvested, processed or converted. They have had two years to see the game for themselves and make an informed decision whether they prefer it to BW. And they overwhelmingly reject it. You can check the numbers from PC bangs or the interest in BW events compared to SC2; they have made their mind and it would be smart to respect it.
If Blizzard want to get them as customers again they should develop a better product instead of trying to forcefully ram some unwanted, inferior ersatz down their collective throat.
|
Interesting news is circulating frequently in the SC2 scene lately. As well as much drama and controversy over all of it of course.
Personally I'm just going to keep my nose out and hope they do this shit properly. Unfortunately the people in charge don't take their advice from idealistic and elitist posters on the various forums of the interwebs. Money is what guides them, in both a threatening and sometimes enticing way. Like it or not money is the life blood of the World. Like I said I'm just hoping that there's enough of the "Pleasing the Crowd" factored into their business meetings as there is "Making Money".
|
On May 23 2012 13:54 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:15 LunaSea wrote:On May 23 2012 08:02 JeffGoldblum wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down? No it was the players themselves who chose because it's already hard enough to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague so why kill yourself over this lesser tournament? Since when do players have the right to give their opinion in Korean BW progaming ? KeSPA has an opinion and it will be the same for everyone. They were fully allowed to participate in it as much as they wanted. It was just too much at one time for them to prepare for and so they elected to not do it and the classic failed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339466
That's how much say the players have....
|
What I can do is take a partner and sit in front of KeSPA and I can say "Have you met my friends from DreamHack? They run a fantastic event in the Winter, the Summer, in the Spring, look at these great locations, TV, look at the arena, I think we should do something with them"
This in a really interesting line. It effectively makes Sundance an agent for KESPA teams outside of Korea.
Now if we talk about personal interests I think this is a strong and dangerous weapon for MLG. Any non-MLG league now basically has to make a pitch to Sundance if they want KESPA players attending, and while it's a good way to make the whole process efficient, it's kinda dangerous having someone with such strong conflicts of interest.
Now going into pure speculation. At the moment I think it is in MLGs mutual interest to pitch Dreamhack and IEM to KESPA, but if the PPV / Showmatch / Barfights model continues, I think it then becomes in MLGs interest to stop pitching non-MLG tourneys to KESPA without some form of benefit (moneys) to MLG. Even more so if their audience grows to people with no interest in growing the scene, but enjoy watching SC2, since the community backlash would hurt them less.
Thanks Slasher.
|
I don't like the way GOM put in so much work and don't get enough credit for it. It seems unfair that kespa have a system where the better players (GSL players) can not compete after all GSL have done. This MLG - KESPA exclusivity where they are not open to all players seems wrong to me. I don't like it, it is a system that makes money for MLG and KESPA, not a system that lets to best players compete so we can find out who is the best of them all. I am willing to spend my money to watch a tournament that seeks to get the best players competing, not the most popular ones. Im betting if Flash were in the next code S he wouldn't make the semi finals, therefore I am not going to pay to watch him play vs other mid masters and pretend they are the best out there and deserve the money and fans they will make. Tournaments that are open to all players and have a fair system will get my money.
|
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning
|
On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote: I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning
Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter.
There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant.
This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
|
The business acumen is strong with this one.
I believe the future of the eSport relies is strong and stable teams as well- players can move back and forth, but it's easy to be a fan of a team over time.
|
On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote: I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Its interesting that one tournament is "good" and everything they say publicaly is honest and one is "bad" and everything they say to press is lies with no basis towards believing either one.
Also the only real thing exlusivity means is that you wont see them at other events when MLG is on same weekend. Other than that, based on past experience, MLG doesnt really mind if you are at other events. So, while this does cement MLGs status as the premier event outside of Korea beyond that it doesnt really have any other major effect. Also I wouldnt imagine seeing them at too many other events with OSL, Proleague, and likely GSL to worry about. With all those events (and maybe odd korean weekly) I wouldnt anticipate seeing them even be able to fly around the world competing at every major event.
Edit: I also forgot the point that if MLG is in it only for the money then they really arent doing to good a job considering they have been bleeding money for 10 years just to hold esports events.
|
On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Fact of the matter is KESPA will choose where its players go, this is one fact which should be obvious. They went to MLG precisely because MLG take the business seriously. MLG employees (Sundance and others) have said a multitude of times that the more tournaments which succeed, the more there is for everyone - are we just assuming they are constantly lying? I've followed MLG since Halo 2 days and have never found them to either be untrustworthy or dumb enough to lie about things which are obviously important to theirs and the scene at large's future. If anything they talk too much publicly; no other tournament talks about eSports as much as MLG does, no other company talks to the community as often as they do. But, meh, if people who've thought about the issue for 5 minutes understand MLG that much better.
Even if they really are 'super competitive' and want to kill everyone else off, other companies have to step up either way; people are always on about competition breeding innovation etc. Who really cares whether casters can talk about other tournaments when casting with MLG, even if that is true?
People seem to just be assuming if KESPA hadn't partnered with MLG then we'd by default see all the lovely Brood War teams flying all over the world, competing everywhere, which is just blatantly fallacious imo. This isn't some fancy capitalist world where everyone looks out for everyone else all the time. And, whatever your assumptions are about MLG and KESPA, do you really think you could do better in either's situation?
|
On May 23 2012 22:11 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote: I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Its interesting that one tournament is "good" and everything they say publicaly is honest and one is "bad" and everything they say to press is lies with no basis towards believing either one. Also the only real thing exlusivity means is that you wont see them at other events when MLG is on same weekend. Other than that, based on past experience, MLG doesnt really mind if you are at other events. So, while this does cement MLGs status as the premier event outside of Korea beyond that it doesnt really have any other major effect. Also I wouldnt imagine seeing them at too many other events with OSL, Proleague, and likely GSL to worry about. With all those events (and maybe odd korean weekly) I wouldnt anticipate seeing them even be able to fly around the world competing at every major event. Edit: I also forgot the point that if MLG is in it only for the money then they really arent doing to good a job considering they have been bleeding money for 10 years just to hold esports events.
Yeah, but MLG's solution to bleeding money is to charge for a lot of their events. That is the future of eSports under MLG's system. Do you pay for MLG arenas?
|
On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote: I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Another example of the "Profit = Greed" mindset. It is entirely possible to advance the interests of the community while personally benefiting. We need people who can afford to devote their lives to it for this to go big, no?
|
On May 23 2012 22:21 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Fact of the matter is KESPA will choose where its players go, this is one fact which should be obvious. They went to MLG precisely because MLG take the business seriously. MLG employees (Sundance and others) have said a multitude of times that the more tournaments which succeed, the more there is for everyone - are we just assuming they are constantly lying? I've followed MLG since Halo 2 days and have never found them to either be untrustworthy or dumb enough to lie about things which are obviously important to theirs and the scene at large's future. If anything they talk too much publicly; no other tournament talks about eSports as much as MLG does, no other company talks to the community as often as they do. But, meh, if people who've thought about the issue for 5 minutes understand MLG that much better. Even if they really are 'super competitive' and want to kill everyone else off, other companies have to step up either way; people are always on about competition breeding innovation etc. Who really cares whether casters can talk about other tournaments when casting with MLG, even if that is true? People seem to just be assuming if KESPA hadn't partnered with MLG then we'd by default see all the lovely Brood War teams flying all over the world, competing everywhere, which is just blatantly fallacious imo. This isn't some fancy capitalist world where everyone looks out for everyone else all the time. And, whatever your assumptions are about MLG and KESPA, do you really think you could do better in either's situation?
And by that we endorse such business practices of KeSPA. No one blames MLG for doing good business. But they do it for themselves first and foremost. If DH and IEM were able to land such a deal, they would have done so, too. But the point is: No one should have made that deal. Sure we all want to see BW players play. But by that MLG happily positioned themselves as a stage for KeSPA's philosophies. KeSPA is perfectly entitled to follow their own interests. Yes, everyone is entitled to do so. We can not fault companies looking to make profit. It becomes problematic, whenever there is too much power put into any hand, hence in every other industry there are regulations, codes of conduct, rules of competition. There is no such thing as a truly free market. Another possible model would have players, teams and leagues as separate federative representations. That would never happen as long as we encourage such deals. Myself, I don't even believe KeSPA is intentionally malicious nor MLG is unfit for taking such responsibility. But it boils down to my personal belief on "how much regulation", or figuratively "how much government" do we need- which may differ vastly, especially given cultural backgrounds.
|
On May 23 2012 23:08 patzernuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote: I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Another example of the "Profit = Greed" mindset. It is entirely possible to advance the interests of the community while personally benefiting. We need people who can afford to devote their lives to it for this to go big, no?
Sure it's possible. As is the opposite.
|
On May 21 2012 01:03 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 00:24 s4life wrote:On May 21 2012 00:15 zaii wrote:On May 21 2012 00:08 s4life wrote:On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote: MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players. You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM. Kespa has all those and more and they are on the OGN tv network. Plus BW star players are more popular then Korean SC2 players Also I don't see what MLG can lose. They host an open tournament and now they get more exclusive star power, because of Kespa. EDIT: Oh and Kespa or OGN are doing LoL the most popular game in korea atm. I don't see how any of what you said contradicts what I stated. GOM can absolutely require its players to be sort of exclusive, since MLG started with that shit. OGN and LOL are very popular in Korea, but the best SC2 players are in the GSL, at least for the foreseeable future, and that's what really boils down to when organizing tournaments. This could create two blocks of players/tournaments.. a total disaster for esports. Gom can't require their players to be exclusive to them Since they don't have the massive corporation backing that Kespa has to pay for the teams, The best SC2 players are the korean players and they are all over the place playing for a lot of leagues, They are not exclusive to Gom. Oh and outside players will be able to play in Kespa through MLG.
err... Gom is itself a corporation.. the GRETECH corp. We'll see how things pan out.. Methinks the kespa model of exclusivity will not hold, it will hurt them and they will have to give up on it down the road.
|
|
|
|