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On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down?
I remember watching tasteless doing GOM BW. Then I remember not watching it anymore and everything switching to SC2.
Did those events happen together? Did Kespa kill my english BW?
I agree MLG would be foolish to not deal with Kespa after Blizz gave them the green light, but I'm still very unhappy that the possibility even exists that SC2 could get locked down in a rigid and unyielding structure. I may incite rioting at events if such silly rules as no celebrating and typing 'ppp' to ask for a pause being punishable because 'The Rules' say that it's 'pp' or nothing.
Also, a shelf full of small tourney trophies looks way better then one big MLG/Kespa cup.
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I don't agree with a lot of Sundance's stance and POV, but you gotta admire an owner that's willing to talk in public.
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On May 23 2012 05:00 Slasher wrote:
What Blizzard is working towards, and what we're working towards, is trying to convert those masses slowly.
This is disgusting. Those "masses" aren't some raw material that can harvested, processed or converted. They have had two years to see the game for themselves and make an informed decision whether they prefer it to BW. And they overwhelmingly reject it. You can check the numbers from PC bangs or the interest in BW events compared to SC2; they have made their mind and it would be smart to respect it.
If Blizzard want to get them as customers again they should develop a better product instead of trying to forcefully ram some unwanted, inferior ersatz down their collective throat.
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Interesting news is circulating frequently in the SC2 scene lately. As well as much drama and controversy over all of it of course.
Personally I'm just going to keep my nose out and hope they do this shit properly. Unfortunately the people in charge don't take their advice from idealistic and elitist posters on the various forums of the interwebs. Money is what guides them, in both a threatening and sometimes enticing way. Like it or not money is the life blood of the World. Like I said I'm just hoping that there's enough of the "Pleasing the Crowd" factored into their business meetings as there is "Making Money".
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On May 23 2012 13:54 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:15 LunaSea wrote:On May 23 2012 08:02 JeffGoldblum wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:30 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 11:43 Goldfish wrote:Some people forgot (or didn't know if they joined after the GOM KeSPA Blizzard drama) that KeSPA actually allowed their players to play at GOM (before the *"Blizzard wants to take down KeSPA with SC2 drama"). * Disclaimer - Sentence worded for dramatic effect. Also here's Tasteless commentating for GOMTV which features Flash!: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/996I wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA lets their players play at GOM tournaments again (well at least after their players get to skill level that is). Are you also forgetting that Kespa pulled several of their teams out of the GOM BW leagues which led to them being shut down? No it was the players themselves who chose because it's already hard enough to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague so why kill yourself over this lesser tournament? Since when do players have the right to give their opinion in Korean BW progaming ? KeSPA has an opinion and it will be the same for everyone. They were fully allowed to participate in it as much as they wanted. It was just too much at one time for them to prepare for and so they elected to not do it and the classic failed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339466
That's how much say the players have....
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What I can do is take a partner and sit in front of KeSPA and I can say "Have you met my friends from DreamHack? They run a fantastic event in the Winter, the Summer, in the Spring, look at these great locations, TV, look at the arena, I think we should do something with them"
This in a really interesting line. It effectively makes Sundance an agent for KESPA teams outside of Korea.
Now if we talk about personal interests I think this is a strong and dangerous weapon for MLG. Any non-MLG league now basically has to make a pitch to Sundance if they want KESPA players attending, and while it's a good way to make the whole process efficient, it's kinda dangerous having someone with such strong conflicts of interest.
Now going into pure speculation. At the moment I think it is in MLGs mutual interest to pitch Dreamhack and IEM to KESPA, but if the PPV / Showmatch / Barfights model continues, I think it then becomes in MLGs interest to stop pitching non-MLG tourneys to KESPA without some form of benefit (moneys) to MLG. Even more so if their audience grows to people with no interest in growing the scene, but enjoy watching SC2, since the community backlash would hurt them less.
Thanks Slasher.
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I don't like the way GOM put in so much work and don't get enough credit for it. It seems unfair that kespa have a system where the better players (GSL players) can not compete after all GSL have done. This MLG - KESPA exclusivity where they are not open to all players seems wrong to me.
I don't like it, it is a system that makes money for MLG and KESPA, not a system that lets to best players compete so we can find out who is the best of them all. I am willing to spend my money to watch a tournament that seeks to get the best players competing, not the most popular ones. Im betting if Flash were in the next code S he wouldn't make the semi finals, therefore I am not going to pay to watch him play vs other mid masters and pretend they are the best out there and deserve the money and fans they will make.
Tournaments that are open to all players and have a fair system will get my money.
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I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning
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On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning
Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter.
There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant.
This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
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The business acumen is strong with this one.
I believe the future of the eSport relies is strong and stable teams as well- players can move back and forth, but it's easy to be a fan of a team over time.
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On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Its interesting that one tournament is "good" and everything they say publicaly is honest and one is "bad" and everything they say to press is lies with no basis towards believing either one.
Also the only real thing exlusivity means is that you wont see them at other events when MLG is on same weekend. Other than that, based on past experience, MLG doesnt really mind if you are at other events. So, while this does cement MLGs status as the premier event outside of Korea beyond that it doesnt really have any other major effect. Also I wouldnt imagine seeing them at too many other events with OSL, Proleague, and likely GSL to worry about. With all those events (and maybe odd korean weekly) I wouldnt anticipate seeing them even be able to fly around the world competing at every major event.
Edit: I also forgot the point that if MLG is in it only for the money then they really arent doing to good a job considering they have been bleeding money for 10 years just to hold esports events.
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On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Fact of the matter is KESPA will choose where its players go, this is one fact which should be obvious. They went to MLG precisely because MLG take the business seriously. MLG employees (Sundance and others) have said a multitude of times that the more tournaments which succeed, the more there is for everyone - are we just assuming they are constantly lying? I've followed MLG since Halo 2 days and have never found them to either be untrustworthy or dumb enough to lie about things which are obviously important to theirs and the scene at large's future. If anything they talk too much publicly; no other tournament talks about eSports as much as MLG does, no other company talks to the community as often as they do. But, meh, if people who've thought about the issue for 5 minutes understand MLG that much better.
Even if they really are 'super competitive' and want to kill everyone else off, other companies have to step up either way; people are always on about competition breeding innovation etc. Who really cares whether casters can talk about other tournaments when casting with MLG, even if that is true?
People seem to just be assuming if KESPA hadn't partnered with MLG then we'd by default see all the lovely Brood War teams flying all over the world, competing everywhere, which is just blatantly fallacious imo. This isn't some fancy capitalist world where everyone looks out for everyone else all the time. And, whatever your assumptions are about MLG and KESPA, do you really think you could do better in either's situation?
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On May 23 2012 22:11 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Its interesting that one tournament is "good" and everything they say publicaly is honest and one is "bad" and everything they say to press is lies with no basis towards believing either one. Also the only real thing exlusivity means is that you wont see them at other events when MLG is on same weekend. Other than that, based on past experience, MLG doesnt really mind if you are at other events. So, while this does cement MLGs status as the premier event outside of Korea beyond that it doesnt really have any other major effect. Also I wouldnt imagine seeing them at too many other events with OSL, Proleague, and likely GSL to worry about. With all those events (and maybe odd korean weekly) I wouldnt anticipate seeing them even be able to fly around the world competing at every major event. Edit: I also forgot the point that if MLG is in it only for the money then they really arent doing to good a job considering they have been bleeding money for 10 years just to hold esports events.
Yeah, but MLG's solution to bleeding money is to charge for a lot of their events. That is the future of eSports under MLG's system. Do you pay for MLG arenas?
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On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money.
Another example of the "Profit = Greed" mindset. It is entirely possible to advance the interests of the community while personally benefiting. We need people who can afford to devote their lives to it for this to go big, no?
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On May 23 2012 22:21 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Fact of the matter is KESPA will choose where its players go, this is one fact which should be obvious. They went to MLG precisely because MLG take the business seriously. MLG employees (Sundance and others) have said a multitude of times that the more tournaments which succeed, the more there is for everyone - are we just assuming they are constantly lying? I've followed MLG since Halo 2 days and have never found them to either be untrustworthy or dumb enough to lie about things which are obviously important to theirs and the scene at large's future. If anything they talk too much publicly; no other tournament talks about eSports as much as MLG does, no other company talks to the community as often as they do. But, meh, if people who've thought about the issue for 5 minutes understand MLG that much better. Even if they really are 'super competitive' and want to kill everyone else off, other companies have to step up either way; people are always on about competition breeding innovation etc. Who really cares whether casters can talk about other tournaments when casting with MLG, even if that is true? People seem to just be assuming if KESPA hadn't partnered with MLG then we'd by default see all the lovely Brood War teams flying all over the world, competing everywhere, which is just blatantly fallacious imo. This isn't some fancy capitalist world where everyone looks out for everyone else all the time. And, whatever your assumptions are about MLG and KESPA, do you really think you could do better in either's situation?
And by that we endorse such business practices of KeSPA. No one blames MLG for doing good business. But they do it for themselves first and foremost. If DH and IEM were able to land such a deal, they would have done so, too. But the point is: No one should have made that deal. Sure we all want to see BW players play. But by that MLG happily positioned themselves as a stage for KeSPA's philosophies. KeSPA is perfectly entitled to follow their own interests. Yes, everyone is entitled to do so. We can not fault companies looking to make profit. It becomes problematic, whenever there is too much power put into any hand, hence in every other industry there are regulations, codes of conduct, rules of competition. There is no such thing as a truly free market. Another possible model would have players, teams and leagues as separate federative representations. That would never happen as long as we encourage such deals. Myself, I don't even believe KeSPA is intentionally malicious nor MLG is unfit for taking such responsibility. But it boils down to my personal belief on "how much regulation", or figuratively "how much government" do we need- which may differ vastly, especially given cultural backgrounds.
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On May 23 2012 23:08 patzernuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 21:54 Seekzor wrote:On May 23 2012 21:29 Huggerz wrote:
I don't see how KESPA going to SC2 could have gone any better than partnering with MLG. Sundance more than any other tournament organiser has tangible ideas and plans for progressing 'eSports', and they take it all seriously. What other tournament does this? IPL, NASL etc. put on great events and all that but never convey plans for the future. Dreamhack are known for brilliant events but the organisers dick around; it's part of what people are endeared by. But people expect a professional organisation like KESPA and its partners/parents to throw open their players to everyone, and blame MLG when it doesn't happen? I cannot fathom the reasoning Many of us doesn't trust MLG or Sundance to do what is best for the scene. Unline organisations like Dreamhack who does it all because they love it MLG wants what is best for themselves despite whatever they tell you on SOTG or on Twitter. There shouldn't be one organisation who gets to pick which tournaments gets KESPA players, especially not an organisation who runs tournaments themselves. That is a conflict of interests and there is no chance you will see some of these players in a tournament that is a competition for MLG. That might be good for MLG because they will probably get more viewers, it is however bad for us viewer because that makes those tournaments less significant. This move by MLG is a way for them to kill off NASL and IPL. MLG is super competitive and like "The gd show" discussed yesterday casters aren't allowed to tell names of other tournaments on the live cast. Which is ridiculous because they always have their talk about wanting everyone to succeed. MLG is only here for the money. Another example of the "Profit = Greed" mindset. It is entirely possible to advance the interests of the community while personally benefiting. We need people who can afford to devote their lives to it for this to go big, no?
Sure it's possible. As is the opposite.
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On May 21 2012 01:03 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 00:24 s4life wrote:On May 21 2012 00:15 zaii wrote:On May 21 2012 00:08 s4life wrote:On May 18 2012 11:32 Adreme wrote:On May 18 2012 06:26 zezamer wrote:
MLG shouldn't try to hurt/insult/whatever GOM, in the end they need GOM players to attend their events. The thing is though "GOM players" arent owned by GOM in same way KESPA players are a part of KESPA. Leenock was completely willing to skip up/down matches to go to MLG but that would not happen if it were a KESPA league with KESPA players. You know that could change anytime right? GOM has the venue, the show, the sponsors, the money.. they are face of SC2 in Korea. If it gets to a pissing contest I am sure MLG has far more to lose than GOM. Kespa has all those and more and they are on the OGN tv network. Plus BW star players are more popular then Korean SC2 players Also I don't see what MLG can lose. They host an open tournament and now they get more exclusive star power, because of Kespa. EDIT: Oh and Kespa or OGN are doing LoL the most popular game in korea atm. I don't see how any of what you said contradicts what I stated. GOM can absolutely require its players to be sort of exclusive, since MLG started with that shit. OGN and LOL are very popular in Korea, but the best SC2 players are in the GSL, at least for the foreseeable future, and that's what really boils down to when organizing tournaments. This could create two blocks of players/tournaments.. a total disaster for esports. Gom can't require their players to be exclusive to them Since they don't have the massive corporation backing that Kespa has to pay for the teams, The best SC2 players are the korean players and they are all over the place playing for a lot of leagues, They are not exclusive to Gom. Oh and outside players will be able to play in Kespa through MLG.
err... Gom is itself a corporation.. the GRETECH corp. We'll see how things pan out.. Methinks the kespa model of exclusivity will not hold, it will hurt them and they will have to give up on it down the road.
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EPT
