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On May 03 2012 18:00 SomeONEx wrote:
And people say Blizzard don't listen to community. They might be slow, but they are going in the right way, which is great!
Also good that they are a keeping and eye on the lategame TvP!
<3 Blizzard!!
They've been "keeping an eye" on lategame TvP for the past year.
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On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it!
I completely agree with this suggestion.
Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill.
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Players making balance tweaks is a bad, bad idea.
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On May 03 2012 18:06 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it! I completely agree with this suggestion. Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill.
That's ridiculous, having a zerg poop creep over your wall-in (expo) would make cheesing way too easy for Zerg
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On May 03 2012 18:06 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it! I completely agree with this suggestion. Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill.
WOW IF they give overlord drop creep without lair upgrade.
Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are essentially dead.
I take that upgrade anytime.
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Better scouting and more energy on the queen is quite a big buff to Zerg early game.
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On May 03 2012 18:08 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 18:06 cydial wrote:On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it! I completely agree with this suggestion. Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill. WOW IF they give overlord drop creep without lair upgrade. Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are essentially dead. I take that upgrade anytime.
Because its op yea ... hello spinecralwer rush at minute 3:30?
I like the idea of having 35-40 energy on my spawning queens.
But yea i would totally like the 50 energy, would make my 4 queens when hellions arrive really feel like colli agains lings 
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On May 03 2012 18:08 Talin wrote:
Players making balance tweaks is a bad, bad idea.
These are blizzards balance tweaks, just in the form of a custom map that they've released instead of a PTR.
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On May 03 2012 17:55 Morfildur wrote:
The overlord change is nice but not needed imho. The other changes are... well, not that good.
Queen energy should start at 25 so you have to chose between creep spread and injecting. Also, that change would make creep spread with additional queens too fast if each queen can put down 2 tumors on spawning.
Observer build time is ok atm, i don't see any reason to reduce it.
As for improving Zerg early game defenses, make Queens ground attack stronger or increase armor by 1. They can't be used offensively in any way early game apart from proxy hatch, so making them slightly stronger would help a lot in defense without opening more options for cheese. +1 Armor would also help a ton against Marine, Zealot or Zergling all-ins.
Another idea i have for Queens is to make them massive. Forcefield on your ramp due to warp prism sentry? No longer a problem.
I don´t get why Creep vs larva inject is seen as a choice Larva inject is the superior choice with Creep spread being more of an energy dump.
Do players seriously sacrifice a larva inject they can afford to get more creep? I don´t think I have ever seen a game where one can say ¨oh it was genius for him to choose to lay down a creep tumor instead of larva injecting¨
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Overlord speed is very good change. And very needed one. But Queen? This change is HUGE. Can't wait to test it!
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On May 03 2012 18:14 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:55 Morfildur wrote:
The overlord change is nice but not needed imho. The other changes are... well, not that good.
Queen energy should start at 25 so you have to chose between creep spread and injecting. Also, that change would make creep spread with additional queens too fast if each queen can put down 2 tumors on spawning.
Observer build time is ok atm, i don't see any reason to reduce it.
As for improving Zerg early game defenses, make Queens ground attack stronger or increase armor by 1. They can't be used offensively in any way early game apart from proxy hatch, so making them slightly stronger would help a lot in defense without opening more options for cheese. +1 Armor would also help a ton against Marine, Zealot or Zergling all-ins.
Another idea i have for Queens is to make them massive. Forcefield on your ramp due to warp prism sentry? No longer a problem. I don´t get why Creep vs larva inject is seen as a choice Larva inject is the superior choice with Creep spread being more of an energy dump. Do players seriously sacrifice a larva inject they can afford to get more creep? I don´t think I have ever seen a game where one can say ¨oh it was genius for him to choose to lay down a creep tumor instead of larva injecting¨
No, but they can build another queen for it.
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On May 03 2012 18:10 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 18:08 FakeDeath wrote:On May 03 2012 18:06 cydial wrote:On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it! I completely agree with this suggestion. Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill. WOW IF they give overlord drop creep without lair upgrade. Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are essentially dead. I take that upgrade anytime. Because its op yea ... hello spinecralwer rush at minute 3:30? I like the idea of having 35-40 energy on my spawning queens. But yea i would totally like the 50 energy, would make my 4 queens when hellions arrive really feel like colli agains lings
It would be ridiculously op. Spinecrawler rush? Who cares. 6 Pool with creep on his ramp so he can't wall into auto-win.
You want to FFE? Well, lets see how you build your nexus and cannons on creep....
Oh you can't build your core on creep? Well, you can't do anything as i'm flying overlords on top of all your pylons, i guess you have to proxy your own core just for getting rid of overlords then.
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I do not agree with the changes and find it disturbing that blizzard uses their time thinking, planning and implementing so small things that does not address any core design flaws of the game. TvZ and TvP ultimately comes down to a race of not getting to late game for T. Buffing Z and P in their turtling playstyle will only make the game worse.
If I want to play a game where both players just want to stay in their base, ill go play sim city.
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On May 03 2012 17:00 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:54 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:43 Jaegeru wrote:On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? Oh please stop spouting mindless dribble, Thorzain's win at dreamhack was the first time a foreign terran has won a major tournament in a year, last one probably being TSL3. I would hardly call the gathering a big tournament with a stacked line up. Mindless dribble? If a protoss player wins even one game we have pages and pages of terran whiners mindlessly spouting crap about how protoss is 1A EZ OP race. They act as though protoss is winning the majority of tournaments and refuse to ever look at what the results actually are. I brought up the Gathering because he was saying outside of Korea terrans are doing terribly and it's an example of a tournament without any Koreans that foreign terrans actually did well at. Where the fuck did I claim it had a stacked line-up? You seem to have fogotten the months of Protoss bitching on every forum everywhere. Terran has been nerfed every single patch since release (look a the history if you don't believe me) and it's getting old at this point. I don't think the game is imbalanced, but I think it's fundamentally poorly designed, and terran players have to suffer because they made us too good at the outset and refuse to admit that they under-designed the other races.
I agree with you totally, except that when protoss were whining the win rates were actually terrible at pro level whereas the win rates for last month are pretty well balanced. I know it must suck getting nerfed all the time, but even Browder admitted they spent way more time on designing terran and made it the most complete race. If the nerfs hadn't happened terran would be way too strong now and I think only the really hardcore whiners won't admit that.
What worries me is Blizzard is going to make the same mistake with HOTS- make zerg way too strong and flexible and then spend the rest of the expansion's shelf-life trying to nerf them back to balance.
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On May 03 2012 18:17 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 18:10 bluQ wrote:On May 03 2012 18:08 FakeDeath wrote:On May 03 2012 18:06 cydial wrote:On May 03 2012 10:04 bakedace wrote:
Instead of giving the queen extra energy..
Maybe the overlord could drop creep without lair upgrade.
- This would allow faster creep spread, while not effecting larva count. Player will have to move overlords in place properly (leap frogging), and will leave some overlords vulnerable. Pros and cons.
- This may also give zergs more options for early game cheese with spines and proxy buildings.
We need more ideas instead of just saying we hate it! I completely agree with this suggestion. Having a queen start with 50 energy is overkill. WOW IF they give overlord drop creep without lair upgrade. Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are essentially dead. I take that upgrade anytime. Because its op yea ... hello spinecralwer rush at minute 3:30? I like the idea of having 35-40 energy on my spawning queens. But yea i would totally like the 50 energy, would make my 4 queens when hellions arrive really feel like colli agains lings It would be ridiculously op. Spinecrawler rush? Who cares. 6 Pool with creep on his ramp so he can't wall into auto-win. You want to FFE? Well, lets see how you build your nexus and cannons on creep.... Oh you can't build your core on creep? Well, you can't do anything as i'm flying overlords on top of all your pylons, i guess you have to proxy your own core just for getting rid of overlords then.
I agree with this and I am zerg lol.
How about 50 energy for queens but increase the cost of transfuse to 75 energy or soemthing so that protoss air is still good.
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At first I thought this was community made, then I realized it was actually from Blizzard and meant serious...
I play Zerg but isn't this a little too drastic?
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On May 03 2012 18:14 windsupernova wrote:
Do players seriously sacrifice a larva inject they can afford to get more creep? I don´t think I have ever seen a game where one can say ¨oh it was genius for him to choose to lay down a creep tumor instead of larva injecting¨
it's not uncommon to place a creep tumor instead of injecting the moment your first queen pops out, because you can't make use of the larvae anyway in certain situations, is it?
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Is there video with overlord speed comparison?
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On May 03 2012 17:26 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:23 Grend wrote:
What I do not get is how everyone makes it so that it will change creep spread so dramatically. It makes you able to larvae and creep simultaneously with your first 2 queens ish, but that is about it. You get one extra larvae inject or a creep tumor?
It is kind of powerful spawning with a transfuse too though, especially versus banshees and void rays.
OLspeed just seems so natural, why didn't this come sooner? They are ridiculously slow.
The OL speed increase on paper seems minuscule. We have to see ingame if this will mean anything. As for queen change, terran early game aggression is too strong in pro games so that is why they are changing this. They left this alone for 6 months or more (the last bunker/barracks/helion nerf) and things have not changed much for anyone but DRG and maybe Stephano.
ive tested the OL buff in game. its great. on certain maps like close spawn metal, u wont even need to drone scout. u can freely look in his base with no fear really and ovies can escape much more easily against a marine/stalker depending on position. of course u can still deny ovie scouting, but for the firs few mins of the game it is awesome. great and much needed buff. like the other guy said, this speed buff feels very natural for zerg.
in game the speed buff is very if you main as zerg even tho the numerical value is very small. honestly its so nice to watch the overlord "zoom" across the minimap LOL.
one thing to note tho is that the patch says 0.586, but in game its rounded up to 0.59.
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i think 35 starting energy wouldn't be much of a difference at all. Injects need 25 energy, but it takes slightly longer than one inject cycle to regain that 25 energy. So with 35 starting energy perfect macro would be even stronger (top players being able to slowly whittle down that 10 extra energy in 3-4 perfect cycles), but 10 energy does not make that much of an impact when you devote one queen to creep spread anyway.
I guess we will just have to wait to see how this works out
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EPT
