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On May 03 2012 16:54 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:43 Jaegeru wrote:On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? Oh please stop spouting mindless dribble, Thorzain's win at dreamhack was the first time a foreign terran has won a major tournament in a year, last one probably being TSL3. I would hardly call the gathering a big tournament with a stacked line up. Mindless dribble? If a protoss player wins even one game we have pages and pages of terran whiners mindlessly spouting crap about how protoss is 1A EZ OP race. They act as though protoss is winning the majority of tournaments and refuse to ever look at what the results actually are. I brought up the Gathering because he was saying outside of Korea terrans are doing terribly and it's an example of a tournament without any Koreans that foreign terrans actually did well at. Where the fuck did I claim it had a stacked line-up?
You seem to have fogotten the months of Protoss bitching on every forum everywhere.
Terran has been nerfed every single patch since release (look a the history if you don't believe me) and it's getting old at this point. I don't think the game is imbalanced, but I think it's fundamentally poorly designed, and terran players have to suffer because they made us too good at the outset and refuse to admit that they under-designed the other races.
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Playing random race in diamond I would rather suggest buffing the terran lategame vs Protoss which is by far the hardest of all matchups to play. But then Korean top pros would turn the GSL into a TvT fest again probably. EDIT: Ah they pointed that out in their news post already!
Buffing Zerg vs Protoss makes only sense on the highest level of pro play probably, as Zerg it's rather easy against Protoss I feel.
Cool idea though, Blizzard, of getting some direct feedback and inviting the community to test!
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On May 03 2012 17:01 KuKri wrote:
Playing random race in diamond I would rather suggest buffing the terran lategame vs Protoss which is by far the hardest of all matchups to play. But then Korean top pros would turn the GSL into a TvT fest again probably.
Buffing Zerg vs Protoss makes only sense on the highest level of pro play probably, as Zerg it's rather easy against Protoss I feel.
Cool idea though, Blizzard, of getting some direct feedback and inviting the community to test!
I play random too but nobody gives a shit. As soon as you say something like this you are a 'dumd biased re******'.
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I like the Ovi change, really sould give that small scouting edge that zergs have been longing for.
The queen change ... i dont know, it might be too powerfull, iam not a strong enough zerg to really judge that, but it definitely has some pretty big potential.
The observer change is in my opinion completely unecessary. Especially when argueing with the very top, looking at current GSL i dont see P beeing in any urgent need of a buff. Right now as a toss you have to make a tradeoff between building observers from your robo or units and i think that is a good thing.
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As a terran player I think that Overlord change is good, but I can't agree with Queen change. It will give zerg too big advantage in early game, and make hellion harassment quite useless. In most cases, in mid-high master terran players are using hellions to deny creep spread, attack some queens etc. But after this Queen change zerg can just make 3-4 Queens and be 100% safe. Queens will survive to late game, and it will make infestor-corruptor-brood lord even stronger...
I don't know why blizzard is balancing this game after looking only at the GSL league. It is highest level of play, but this changes will affect every single Zerg matchup. Look at the EU grandmaster - zergs are doing sooo well. Look at the tournament results - zergs are winning (f.e DRG at last MLG). You are just making zerg easier and easier but you don't know how hard is playing against it. I always play macro games against zerg opponent, and it so hard to win it. Terran has to do almost every single thing right, use some good multitask, drop, save units from drop and push in the same moment.
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On May 03 2012 17:01 KuKri wrote:
Playing random race in diamond I would rather suggest buffing the terran lategame vs Protoss which is by far the hardest of all matchups to play. But then Korean top pros would turn the GSL into a TvT fest again probably.
Buffing Zerg vs Protoss makes only sense on the highest level of pro play probably, as Zerg it's rather easy against Protoss I feel.
Cool idea though, Blizzard, of getting some direct feedback and inviting the community to test!
If they buffed Terran, everyone would flip a gigantic shit because Terran has been dominant over the past few years and people forget that they've been constantly being nerfed, so all the Zerg and Protoss balance whiners would just flip a massive shit even though Terran is clearly struggling at the moment (and will completely fall apart metagame-wise if the proposed changes go through)
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This thread makes me lose faith in humanity. The 25 energy bonus is completely negligible in the lategame but everyone is still spouting the same bullshit they were 25 pages ago about it breaking lategame with hive tech. It was shown hours ago that the creep spread in the midgame compared from now to what the changes would do is unrecognizable because having more creep tumors does not increase the speed creep spreads in any one direction yet still people are bitching about it. I don't know why I come to TL anymore.
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It changes earlygame and snowballs.
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On May 03 2012 17:08 Toastie wrote:
It changes earlygame and snowballs.
I thought you were done with this thread?
I made two very clear points explicitly stating what people in this thread were repeatedly saying and why it was wrong and you completely misinterpreted two very clear sentences. Thanks for making my point.
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snowball
User was banned for this post.
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in b4 midgame queen-spine defence, without spending a single larva on any unit
3 base ice fisher incoming ;]
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On May 03 2012 17:06 Ziggitz wrote:
This thread makes me lose faith in humanity. The 25 energy bonus is completely negligible in the lategame but everyone is still spouting the same bullshit they were 25 pages ago about it breaking lategame with hive tech. It was shown hours ago that the creep spread in the midgame compared from now to what the changes would do is unrecognizable because having more creep tumors does not increase the speed creep spreads in any one direction yet still people are bitching about it. I don't know why I come to TL anymore.
You should probably test out the creep spread potential on the custom map before you spout bullshit. Terran and Protoss both rely heavily on Zerg having the spread that makes sense in the current metagame, and if you don't think it's vastly different post-change, you simply haven't played the test map. It's fucking stupid, try it out for yourself.
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Solution is rather simple; spawn queens with 50 energy but increase the cost of transfuse 
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Norway25712 Posts
I usually keep quiet when anything related to balance is brought up, but bringing Queen starting energy up to 50 from 25 is a way drastic move. IMO it could render Hellions early on quite useless as zerglings can much easier get a surround on them. Don't mind the overlord speed buff. The Observer build time I'm not too sure about. Could cause issues when it comes to holding off things like blink stalkers. Kill an Observer and another one will be there immediately, forcing you to split your army to your main and nat and proceed to lose it all. Worst case scenario, obviously.
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The overlord change is fine I think. If you really want to deny scouting you can still hunt it down with a marine but it's a little bit trickier since it moves faster, of course. The observer build time decreased to 30 might be too much, not in terms of getting a scout out but rather detection. If they decide to go with the observer change it would make a lot of Terran builds more ineffective because those 10 seconds to get an observer out is crucial. Something that I would've been a fan of is trying to make hallucination more viable for scouting in the mid-game so Protoss can stay on gateway tech a little bit longer and still get a good scout off -- tech up to a robo if they're in need of an observer.
The change I don't like is the queen change. I like how the match-up works at the moment where you make hellions to take map control and deny Zerg's creep spread or him taking an ultra fast third. I don't think there's any problems with forcing Zergs to push away the hellions with a spine, queens, roaches or even get a surround with lings to continue to spread his creep. Queens spawning with a transfusion ready might cause some problems that we're not thinking of. Maybe it's not a big deal but the ability to get your creep going much faster frightens me. ;__;
Overall: Overlord speed increase, good. Observer build time decrease, not so much. Queens energy increase, yuck. I know someone will bring up the point that queens starting with 50 energy won't have a change on how far you'll be able to spread creep in the mid- to late-game but it's those initial creep tumors I'm worried about. You're able to get them out super fast and will make creep pushing down the ramp or to your third before hellions arrive way easier.
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So I guess we can all agree to keep the ovelord change and dump the queen change? Where do we contact blizzard?
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What I do not get is how everyone makes it so that it will change creep spread so dramatically. It makes you able to larvae and creep simultaneously with your first 2 queens ish, but that is about it. You get one extra larvae inject or a creep tumor?
It is kind of powerful spawning with a transfuse too though, especially versus banshees and void rays.
OLspeed just seems so natural, why didn't this come sooner? They are ridiculously slow.
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On May 03 2012 17:00 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:54 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:43 Jaegeru wrote:On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? Oh please stop spouting mindless dribble, Thorzain's win at dreamhack was the first time a foreign terran has won a major tournament in a year, last one probably being TSL3. I would hardly call the gathering a big tournament with a stacked line up. Mindless dribble? If a protoss player wins even one game we have pages and pages of terran whiners mindlessly spouting crap about how protoss is 1A EZ OP race. They act as though protoss is winning the majority of tournaments and refuse to ever look at what the results actually are. I brought up the Gathering because he was saying outside of Korea terrans are doing terribly and it's an example of a tournament without any Koreans that foreign terrans actually did well at. Where the fuck did I claim it had a stacked line-up? You seem to have fogotten the months of Protoss bitching on every forum everywhere. Terran has been nerfed every single patch since release (look a the history if you don't believe me) and it's getting old at this point. I don't think the game is imbalanced, but I think it's fundamentally poorly designed, and terran players have to suffer because they made us too good at the outset and refuse to admit that they under-designed the other races.
I agree with you on the point that other then terran other races are underdesigned, especially zerg.
I really hope Hots brings the game closer to what it should have been at the start.
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Is there a reason why the 2v2 version is featured on EU server and not the 1v1?
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All changes would be fine if they changed lategame too. As it is, zerg is OP in megalategame due to mass broods having no good counter by either race. If patches make it easier for zergs to get to them, they need to be nerfed.
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EPT
