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Balance can be argued back and forth endlessly.
My personal opinion is that, right now, P and T is decently balanced overall, but each race have periods of the game where they are at an advantage, while Z is at a disadvantage against both races at the highest level of play, because high level precision and micro (stutter step, forcefields, blink micro, drop harass), while being at a slight advantage in ZvP at lower levels of play when Protoss players don't have the same precision with spells.
In short: Zergs gain the least from better mechanics at the highest level, because the mechanics for getting a good engagement isn't based on precision, but rather on the easier goals of good flanks, into position, and target fire. It's much more to gain from precision in storms, feedback, emp's, stutter step, forcefield, blink micro, than anything Z can do. However, that also means that lesser skilled Zergs can get closer to high level pro players of their race with 'just' macro mechanics - giving them a slight advantage at lower levels of play.
From release, there have been times that Z and P struggle - there have never been a time where T struggle (going from the highest level of play - GSL, MLG, etc).
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On May 03 2012 16:32 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? IPL4 - Alive - Korean MLGs - MKP - Korean Dreamhack - Thorzain - Swedish Didin't follow the others, but this is 3/4 Korea!? if Lucifron won the Gathering I don't think there was to much competition of that event. Also, look at the stats masters/gm terran. It's lower. I don't make stuff up, it is true it is pretty much only the Korean terrans keeping up, with Thorzain and his unorthodox style being special.
Some of the best protoss in Europe were there- Grubby, Bischu and Titan. And I don't understand this thing of always trying to seperate Korean terran results from the rest. They are playing the race closer to its full potential which is where balance matters the most. If a Korean protoss won a tournament you would be whinging and whining just as much as if it was a foreign protoss. And for that matter how many tournaments have protoss won in the last few months?
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On May 03 2012 16:06 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:04 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:55 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:52 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:47 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:
[quote]
LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze...
Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available. Corruption deals 100 damage to Thors?! For the race with the best production, best econ and fastest unit-location, having the most cost efficient is not fair. Corruption doesn't deal damage you idiot. And if Corruptors weren't cost efficient they would be even more a massive waste of supply than they are now. Stop fucking every word in my post in the back so you can reply on 1 word and not the statement, it's dumb and highly annoying. If I corrupt a 500 hp unit and kill it, 100 of the damage is caused by Corruption. Is this wording better? Do you understand it this way? Maybe put it in 5 word sentences? That doesn't change the fact that Corruptors can't deal any damage to ground units on their own, which is untrue of every other air unit barring dropships/observers. A unit with more versatility should be less effective at its various roles than an even more expensive unit with only one defined role, that's just basic internal balance. How do you possibly expect to justify increasing Viking performance versus Corruptors while maintaining that? By, as said, the fact that corruptors are easilly producable en masse, and faster than Vikings, which should come at the cost of being weaker. And don't tell me vikings are usable vs ground, that would make you look laughably silly.
I'm sure every single terran out there would agree with corruptors being able to turn into assault mode if in turn the air battle turned out to be more even due to stats tweaking.
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Overlords not going to die to queens anymore i guess.
Anyway as Zerg i think the buff to Overlord speed is good; can't really see the queen buff going through tho, is oh so extreme and strong.
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Overlords now faster is so, SO great. 50 energy on queens is too good to be balanced.
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I really like more buffs for Z and P.
I am a casual player (currently plat) and I get one TvT in 15 games now. I think it would be so cool to get one TvT in 30 games, I'm not that good at TvT matchup. Maybe it's because I have no opportunity to practice it on the ladder thou...
Sigh.
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On May 03 2012 16:36 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:30 Derrida wrote:
What Grubby said on his twitter regarding the issue:
"It's not my style to jump the gun or to take this publicly, but... I think it would be poor not to point out that the main weapon of Protoss against Zerg is surprise, and a faster moving Overlord would make it nearly impossible to hide tech. Also, Queen with insta transfuse would make Stargate tech even more useless. Really hope the Queen change won't reach normal play. For sake of ZvP. I think the overlord speed boost is good, but if you give Zerg more resilience to allin/surprise, give P more chance to macro against Z." Then give P more of a chance to macro against Z. Z should be able to scout what P is doing. This is an RTS, not poker. All civs should be able to scout other civs effectively. If Ps are getting wins due to surprise buttsecks, then the game is flawed. It's that coin-flippy aspect that most pros whine about (legitimately). SC2 actually has a somewhat bad design flaw, this balance patch is taking a step in the right direction. P should win more games with macro and strategy, less games with all-ins and surprise builds. That's what most protoss do these days and it's just bad design. Fix that part of the game and SC2 becomes a much better game. Better scouting leads to better strategy instead of gimmicky play. Grubby is a smart man, my respect for him just grew. Unfortunately some of the balance comments by Blizzard in the OP make me cringe. I think they're taking a step in the right direction by accident.
The thing is, right now, Protoss needs to pressure the Zerg to "secure" a third, either with a 4 gates +1 or for example the 1 stargate build. Either way, the thing is when they choose a tech path, they are investing on it and the only way it's gonna work is when your opponent is doesn't know exactly what you're doing. Due to Zerg design, if you gives Zerg a way to always sees what's coming, there will be no way for a protoss to put pressure since we can adapt really fast.
On the other way, the Queen buff seems like an overkill to me, creep spread is going to be crazy in mid game. I think one way to help creep spread in the early game would be that hatchery get the ability to start just one creep tumor. That way, you will be able to stop those 3 pylones block cheese, you'll get as a zerg better creep spread in early game but would not explode exponentially in mid game.
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On May 03 2012 16:45 aebriol wrote:
My personal opinion is that, right now, P and T is decently balanced overall, but each race have periods of the game where they are at an advantage, while Z is at a disadvantage against both races at the highest level of play, because high level precision and micro (stutter step, forcefields, blink micro, drop harass), while being at a slight advantage in ZvP at lower levels of play when Protoss players don't have the same precision with spells.
From release, there have been times that Z and P struggle - there have never been a time where T struggle (going from the highest level of play - GSL, MLG, etc).
I'm curious how much improved positioning from Zerg would change - splitting banes instead of having them clumped etc. Might not mean a thing, but I would like to see it incorporated some more!
Also, mostly that is Korean Terran.
Foreign Terran < Foreign P/Z < Korean P/Z < Korean Terran
is what it has looked like for quite some time, it is changing to:
Foreing Terran < < Foreign P/Z < Korean P/Z/T
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On May 03 2012 16:39 Toastie wrote:
Why don't we just remove Terran and have fun with RockPaperScissors, Zergrush and Coinflip ZvP? It seems like approximately 2/3s of TL thinks Terran is a blatantly overpowered race.
Terran is a complete race, and the other two aren't. It's the inherent problem of focusing on a single race for the first release. So you have one race that's versatile, with lots of mechanics and tricks available, and two races that are shunted into two mindsets.
As long as you have that for a foundation, there will always be an inherent imbalance.
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Everyone is in different leagues, and some changes affect different leagues in different ways. It is impossible to please everyone but that's what Blizzard is faced with. I think more people should realize this. They want their game to be bought and played, if the game is too hard for the MAJORITY, and I hope we can ALL agree that the majority of starcraft 2 players are casual players, then their sales and the # of players will decrease.
Maybe the concept of the "practice" league, with normal speed instead of faster time needs to be a bit more drastic. Obviously not the Normal speed implemented because god thats just the stressful thing to play with, but different balance changes between leagues.
Like in CS, public servers and all those pubs, the round time is like a minute longer and you have teams of 16+ and all that nonsense. Start to play competitively all rules are set and do not differ, server cannot have blah blah blah enabled, must have this disabled, etc.
Also I think there should be a community that is invite only in the Blizzard forums for high level players where they can discuss balance. Maybe there already is........I will never know. 
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I feel that 50 energy will close out air play against zerg somewhat, maybe a medium between 25 and 50 will work better. Also, it feels kinda strange reading Blizzard's assessment of Protoss not doing ok at top pro level with five of them in RO8 of GSL (and doing good in other tournaments as well) 
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On Antiga you just can not prevent scounting with ovie if you going in some sort of low-marine build like reactor hellions into starport(s), because it simply sees half of your base. That change will force Terrans to play more "standart macro game" or even "no cheese at all", and that gives huge advantage to Zerg, so more low tier Terran-players than now will be playing Diablo 3.
Nice move to make.
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On May 03 2012 16:46 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:32 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? IPL4 - Alive - Korean MLGs - MKP - Korean Dreamhack - Thorzain - Swedish Didin't follow the others, but this is 3/4 Korea!? if Lucifron won the Gathering I don't think there was to much competition of that event. Also, look at the stats masters/gm terran. It's lower. I don't make stuff up, it is true it is pretty much only the Korean terrans keeping up, with Thorzain and his unorthodox style being special. Some of the best protoss in Europe were there- Grubby, Bischu and Titan. And I don't understand this thing of always trying to seperate Korean terran results from the rest. They are playing the race closer to its full potential which is where balance matters the most. If a Korean protoss won a tournament you would be whinging and whining just as much as if it was a foreign protoss. And for that matter how many tournaments have protoss won in the last few months?
dafuq u trying to say?
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God I wish TL forced its users to link to their SC2 account. Say what you want about the BNET forums but at least there you can identify who actually plays the game and who doesn´t.
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On May 03 2012 16:43 Jaegeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks. Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? Oh please stop spouting mindless dribble, Thorzain's win at dreamhack was the first time a foreign terran has won a major tournament in a year, last one probably being TSL3. I would hardly call the gathering a big tournament with a stacked line up.
Mindless dribble? If a protoss player wins even one game we have pages and pages of terran whiners mindlessly spouting crap about how protoss is 1A EZ OP race. They act as though protoss is winning the majority of tournaments and refuse to ever look at what the results actually are. I brought up the Gathering because he was saying outside of Korea terrans are doing terribly and it's an example of a tournament without any Koreans that foreign terrans actually did well at. Where the fuck did I claim it had a stacked line-up?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 11:48 TheRabidDeer wrote:One is current patch, the other is with the proposed 50 energy queen. Both used the same build and scout path to obtain 4 queens. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zEHdM.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGxed.jpg)
Thanks for checking out the difference! I was on my way to test it myself before I read your post.
You will have creep earlier and this will help early game all ins for sure, but the impact it has later won't be as huge as +25 starting energy might first be perceived as.
Transfuses might be more of an issue though, speaking in terms of PvZ air openings, then again with enough Phoenixes you can lift up and nullify the transfuse so it might make a difference and yet again it might not. That's something that would have to be tested properly by the pros obviously before any legit assumtions can be made.
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Hmm.. Holding 2base toss allins will be even easier. Spreading creep with 3hat roach even better as it now can be sometimes harder. I'm not really worried about ZvT tumor vs hellion but like 1-2base allins that now get more units than before and 4queen openings that spread like 6-8tumors instead of 3. The map will be covered in creep in seconds.
This is why we test tho. ^^
Overlord speedchange extremely good for ZvZ imo.
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On May 03 2012 16:54 Gyoza wrote:
Transfuses might be more of an issue though, speaking in terms of PvZ air openings, then again with enough Phoenixes you can lift up and nullify the transfuse so it might make a difference and yet again it might not. That's something that would have to be tested properly by the pros obviously before any legit assumtions can be made.
Transfuses will beat the hell out of ZvT late game, with broodlord/festor/queen or even ultra/ling/queen compositions more powerfull then ever.
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"Hello this is blizzard.We think its very easy to deal with broodfestor/mass spines late game so we decided to buff zerg early-mid so zerg players can not be killed before they win the game.We renamed overlords to "ItsOverBros" and gave queens the ability to become immortal in pairs.Stargate openers rejoice!
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On May 03 2012 16:59 bGr.MetHiX wrote:
"Hello this is blizzard.We think its very easy to deal with broodfestor/mass spines late game so we decided to buff zerg early-mid so zerg players can not be killed before they win the game.We renamed overlords to "ItsOverBros" and gave queens the ability to become immortal in pairs.Stargate openers rejoice!
i lol'd more than i should have! it's funny cause it's true 
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EPT
