EPT"It's not my style to jump the gun or to take this publicly, but... I think it would be poor not to point out that the main weapon of Protoss against Zerg is surprise, and a faster moving Overlord would make it nearly impossible to hide tech. Also, Queen with insta transfuse would make Stargate tech even more useless. Really hope the Queen change won't reach normal play. For sake of ZvP. I think the overlord speed boost is good, but if you give Zerg more resilience to allin/surprise, give P more chance to macro against Z."
Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 33
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Derrida
2885 Posts
"It's not my style to jump the gun or to take this publicly, but... I think it would be poor not to point out that the main weapon of Protoss against Zerg is surprise, and a faster moving Overlord would make it nearly impossible to hide tech. Also, Queen with insta transfuse would make Stargate tech even more useless. Really hope the Queen change won't reach normal play. For sake of ZvP. I think the overlord speed boost is good, but if you give Zerg more resilience to allin/surprise, give P more chance to macro against Z." | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:21 Toastie wrote: Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing. There's 2 fronts. 1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8. 2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea. Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? | ||
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GenuineOne
United States37 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:28 below66 wrote: Agree with your sentiment about offtopic remarks and getting into childish back and forth's... but then you follow it up with "this is not a thread for opinions on balance" I mean c'mon...... what did you think people were gonna talk about in a thread about new balance changes. If someone is maturely having a discussion about the changes, they wouldn't be off-topic. Edit: DON'T BAN ME BRO =( <3 Think he means off topic balance opinions....Like we should be talking about the changes in balance because of these 3 specific changes. And I think arguing about balance, regarding these 3 specific changes, is a good thing and I am sure Blizzard will be browsing through this thread it would benefit them to see the arguments people make. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote: Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? IPL4 - Alive - Korean MLGs - MKP - Korean Dreamhack - Thorzain - Swedish Didin't follow the others, but this is 3/4 Korea!? if Lucifron won the Gathering I don't think there was to much competition of that event. Also, look at the stats masters/gm terran. It's lower. I don't make stuff up, it is true it is pretty much only the Korean terrans keeping up, with Thorzain and his unorthodox style being special. | ||
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Grintzefish
Austria6 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:32 Toastie wrote: IPL4 - Alive - Korean MLGs - MKP - Korean Dreamhack - Thorzain - Swedish Didin't follow the others, but this is 3/4 Korea!? The Gathering was 1st, 2nd, 3rd foreign terrans (Lucifron, Bratok, Thorzain). | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:33 Grintzefish wrote: observer build time decrease is not necessary. dt tech gets even more useless with that. Do people still go DT????? People pretty much figured out the timing of DTs and check gas timings or check sentry count. We rarely see DTs these days except in PvP and PvZ late game for harassment. Though i dunno why they buff the observer build time. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:30 Derrida wrote: What Grubby said on his twitter regarding the issue: "It's not my style to jump the gun or to take this publicly, but... I think it would be poor not to point out that the main weapon of Protoss against Zerg is surprise, and a faster moving Overlord would make it nearly impossible to hide tech. Also, Queen with insta transfuse would make Stargate tech even more useless. Really hope the Queen change won't reach normal play. For sake of ZvP. I think the overlord speed boost is good, but if you give Zerg more resilience to allin/surprise, give P more chance to macro against Z." Then give P more of a chance to macro against Z. Z should be able to scout what P is doing. This is an RTS, not poker. All civs should be able to scout other civs effectively. If Ps are getting wins due to surprise buttsecks, then the game is flawed. It's that coin-flippy aspect that most pros whine about (legitimately). SC2 actually has a somewhat bad design flaw, this balance patch is taking a step in the right direction. P should win more games with macro and strategy, less games with all-ins and surprise builds. That's what most protoss do these days and it's just bad design. Fix that part of the game and SC2 becomes a much better game. Better scouting leads to better strategy instead of gimmicky play. Grubby is a smart man, my respect for him just grew. Unfortunately some of the balance comments by Blizzard in the OP make me cringe. I think they're taking a step in the right direction by accident. | ||
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below66
United States1761 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:30 GenuineOne wrote: Think he means off topic balance opinions....Like we should be talking about the changes in balance because of these 3 specific changes. And I think arguing about balance, regarding these 3 specific changes, is a good thing and I am sure Blizzard will be browsing through this thread it would benefit them to see the arguments people make. doh!, you're probably right, it's getting kind of late over here, lol. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:35 tomatriedes wrote: The Gathering was 1st, 2nd, 3rd foreign terrans (Lucifron, Bratok, Thorzain). Just makes me feel more like the korean representation at that event was non existent. | ||
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HarryKlein
Germany220 Posts
On May 03 2012 13:03 DeMusliM wrote: Dear David Kim, Please stop listening to Mud Leaguers, Watch the game, especially TvP - Thanks in Advance. P.S. Protoss is fucking good, this "protoss are good at pro level, but not top pro level" really is dumb, i'd almost guarantee a protoss will win GSL, and I would ALMOST be certain of a pvp final. Oh no a Protoss may win the GSL. Last time a P managed to do that is over one year ago - sucks that P has good chances this season. The stats of GSL winnings: T 6 8 17 Z 5 3 2 P 2 2 7 first, second and third place. MarineKing/Drg rape at the MLG's, doesnt matter if they meet HuK/MC/Parting or any other Protoss. It is like every GSL season - one race developes something new and looks imbalanced and next season the whole thing can and I think will change. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:53 Toastie wrote: Reading is hard. I said that a lot of the statistical imbalance is combined with the all- ins, which strike early-game, so there is no evidence to claim that terran early game is incredibly more powerful. Protoss plays greedy, Terran punishes with strong all-ins. If the punishing works, we win, if it doesn't, Protoss get's away with being greedy, wins lategame. honest protosses (maybe get a cannon? you go double forge double upgrades (500/200 cost) and seem to find it normal to get away with it) may make 1/2 cannons with those forges, defend vs drops with stalkers and forcefield the front. Instead of being greedy and claiming imbalance, you could try playing more defensive and see Terran falther. Besides, the "terran is stronger in the early game vs protoss" yada yada is complete bullshit, there was a thread with some graphs from playhem or something with a huge amount of data, protoss had a much bigger win ratio in early PvT compared to TvP, when was the last time a terran 2 raxed in a competitive game anyway?What about the 1-1-1, who still uses that?Is it PuMa?If Blizzard nerfs terran's early game again because MVP crushed Naniwa's greedy builds using normally extremely risky cheese, I won't even care! Because the early rush buids that still work are extremely risky vs an average player (Naniwa's style is known, unlike random bnet protoss' style)they more often than not don't pay off, and no uses them anyway! Terran's strength in TvP relies in the mid game, around the time the first medivacs come out, not the early game. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
DTs aren't even as big of an issue as they were in SCBW, which leaves mostly just banshees. Is this done for banshees? Doesn't really seem justified to me. Queen change: don't really care — somewhat disagree. I suppose it will make void-ray/banshee defense a fair bit easier though. I think it makes much more sense to fix the hydralisk than to do ANY other change to zerg whatsoever. Overlord speed, for sure. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
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Math.random();
433 Posts
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Jaegeru
United Kingdom676 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote: Terrible race except for GM Korea? Terran have won and been over-represented in almost every major international tournament in the last few months (IPL4, previous 2 MLGs, The Gathering, Dreamhack, ASUS etc.) and don't try and pretend it's only Koreans because both Dreamhack and The Gathering were won by foreign terrans (Thorzain and Lucifron). Why not look at facts rather than continually making up stuff? Oh please stop spouting mindless dribble, Thorzain's win at dreamhack was the first time a foreign terran has won a major tournament in a year, last one probably being TSL3. I would hardly call the gathering a big tournament with a stacked line up. | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
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