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On May 03 2012 16:11 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:02 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:53 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:48 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent. I hope you realize why Terran all-ins work so well. It is because Terran is favored early/mid game.... Protoss have realized that Terran are doing mostly all-ins recently, know why they can't stop it regardless? Because Terran is favored early/mid game. If you try and deny this fact you are basically calling Protosses idiots that can't figure out how to hold off Terran all-ins. The reason Protoss can't is because early/mid game units of Terran beat Protoss units at that phase. Reading is hard. I said that a lot of the statistical imbalance is combined with the all- ins, which strike early-game, so there is no evidence to claim that terran early game is incredibly more powerful. Protoss plays greedy, Terran punishes with strong all-ins. If the punishing works, we win, if it doesn't, Protoss get's away with being greedy, wins lategame. honest protosses (maybe get a cannon? you go double forge double upgrades (500/200 cost) and seem to find it normal to get away with it) may make 1/2 cannons with those forges, defend vs drops with stalkers and forcefield the front. Instead of being greedy and claiming imbalance, you could try playing more defensive and see Terran falther. Rofl. If you see Protoss playing defensively and still try to all-in you deserve to lose. End of story. You see Protoss playing defense take advantage of it. I.E. Double Expand, Upgrades, Tech, etc... Do you see what you say? Because Protoss plays defensive, we have to DoubleExpo/Upgrade/Tech, summarized, focus on the late game. Being defensive doesn't mean you are behind in the game. So, if Protoss plays defensive, Protoss/Terran enter the lategame on even footing > Protoss wins80% of those games. You just prove what I said?! The rofl is on you sir. Not quite. Protoss is stuck in the base with basically 0 vision. If you can't find a way to exploit that thats all on you. Also, if you double expanded and teched you should be ahead in every aspect. So even if he somehow kills your army, you should have more production and planetary fortresses for instance to buy you time and mop up the rest of the Protoss army. Not my fault you are bad at coming up with strategies. You probably have what most people have. They copy Pro players styles and expect them to come up with all the answers. Most don't even understand why the build is good and why it functions how it does.
So without any knowledge of me you insult me by saying I just copy pro's and am to stupid to understand what I am actually doing?
The ignorance.
Also, clearly you suck, Protoss on 2 base with 0 vision?!!!?!??!?!?! THAT asks on being exploited, however, you get an al most free 20 second to produce MAPHACK to SEE what I AM DOING even when you are LOCKED IN YOU BASE. I don't really see a double expand working. Expanding to a third is difficult if the Protoss just moves out and attacks.
I'm pretty sure that, in this sutuation, you are the bad fellow.
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On May 03 2012 16:14 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:13 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:05 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On May 03 2012 15:56 ContrailNZ wrote:
Anyway back to my point. I think Zerg need better scouting vs Terran, but these changes boosts Z v P and will cause more problems in this matchup then it will fix vs Terran.
Maybe if they buff overlord speed but help Protoss early game somehow that would help.
I disagree, I feel like Zerg's already get the majority of the intel they're going to get with an overlord as is. A slight buff to speed against them seems negligible. I mean, out of the three MU I have to worry about my poor overlord getting shot down the latest from protoss. No, I see this being most helpful against terran. Most unpredictable early game, coupled with earliest anti-air :/ The overlord speed will also be an indirect buff to baneling rain in ZvP as stalkers will have less time to try and snipe overlords. Also there will also be more likelihood that an overlord will be able to get in and out of a protoss base alive (if the toss only has one sentry say) which can also be pretty big. I'd love to see people do baneling drops with slow overlords.
Indeed, banerain is with speed.
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On May 03 2012 16:07 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 03 2012 15:28 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough. zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air. hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is. the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason... I know you are zerg but how is it possible you are so biased. 4 hellions are a pretty big investment and all you need to chase them away is a single roach. ThI am in ddisbelief of anything I hear and see, if something, tumors should cost more energy and build up slower. You get them for free, while as zerg you have far superior economy wh. How balanced is that. Anyway, I am so bewildered that I just cant express my sadness. World is really full of very ignorant people. 4 hellions are not that big of an investment, they only cost minerals... and mules are amazing. 4 hellions are there mainly to stop creep spread and deny zerg from ever taking a quick third. if u force even a single roach then that is a added bonus. u have to realize how useless roaches are in zvt. making 3-4 of them is wasted money and supply as there only purpose will be to defend hellions against hellions. u should NEVER want to make roaches in zvt unless u know for a fact the terran is going mech or making an adnormal amount of hellions. srsly, that really annoys me when ppl defend hellions by saying "make roaches, EZ". u do not realize how useless roaches are in that MU.also, mules. in terms of race usefulness mules will ALWAYS be better then creep tumors any day of the week. so i dont even understand why terran players complain about creep spread so much, its really not that huge of a deal and wont dramatically effect the game. it certainly wont make it imba either.
Uhhh roaches are not useless in ZvT. The metagame is actually shifting towards early roach to deny hellions and to get a
early third followed by double evo +1melee +1carapace and then going to infestors.
Plus, roaches are decent against mech and counter those mass hellions.Getting roaches may also threaten the terran to overeact because they can assume you are going for some roach+bane all-in which is popular against terran these day.
To say that roaches are useless in that match-up is not so smart.
But i believe this queen change will be good though.We will see how it plays out.
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On May 03 2012 16:14 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:13 tomatriedes wrote:On May 03 2012 16:05 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On May 03 2012 15:56 ContrailNZ wrote:
Anyway back to my point. I think Zerg need better scouting vs Terran, but these changes boosts Z v P and will cause more problems in this matchup then it will fix vs Terran.
Maybe if they buff overlord speed but help Protoss early game somehow that would help.
I disagree, I feel like Zerg's already get the majority of the intel they're going to get with an overlord as is. A slight buff to speed against them seems negligible. I mean, out of the three MU I have to worry about my poor overlord getting shot down the latest from protoss. No, I see this being most helpful against terran. Most unpredictable early game, coupled with earliest anti-air :/ The overlord speed will also be an indirect buff to baneling rain in ZvP as stalkers will have less time to try and snipe overlords. Also there will also be more likelihood that an overlord will be able to get in and out of a protoss base alive (if the toss only has one sentry say) which can also be pretty big. I'd love to see people do baneling drops with slow overlords.
Ah right, nevermind. The speed change doesn't affect upgraded overlords? My bad.
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On May 03 2012 16:05 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:56 ContrailNZ wrote:
Anyway back to my point. I think Zerg need better scouting vs Terran, but these changes boosts Z v P and will cause more problems in this matchup then it will fix vs Terran.
Maybe if they buff overlord speed but help Protoss early game somehow that would help.
I disagree, I feel like Zerg's already get the majority of the intel they're going to get with an overlord as is. A slight buff to speed against them seems negligible. I mean, out of the three MU I have to worry about my poor overlord getting shot down the latest from protoss. No, I see this being most helpful against terran. Most unpredictable early game, coupled with earliest anti-air :/
Reasonable point, but the other changes also have a big impact on Z v P as well. More creep against an all in Protoss who can't afford obs makes the fight far harder, though observer build speed boost does help. The extra energy makes a big difference vs Protoss air however.
Regarding just the overlord speed though, the main risk is that any Zerg can hard counter a Protoss build if they know what the protoss is doing.
If you tell a top Zerg a Protoss is doing X - it is basically an 80% loss to Protoss. As you say, Zerg already get a good chance to scout Protoss since it takes forever for protoss to get any units. This will change scouting from good to great. I think Zerg would be able to get overlords out very reliably on some scouting paths every time if the Protoss goes early sentry.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
I'm fine with Ovi speed (proxy rax to snipe first Ovi might be no more viable though), maybe even the changed Observer buildtime - but - i don't want the huge energy change on the queen to be implemented :/
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On May 03 2012 16:06 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:04 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:55 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:52 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:47 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:
[quote]
LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze...
Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available. Corruption deals 100 damage to Thors?! For the race with the best production, best econ and fastest unit-location, having the most cost efficient is not fair. Corruption doesn't deal damage you idiot. And if Corruptors weren't cost efficient they would be even more a massive waste of supply than they are now. Stop fucking every word in my post in the back so you can reply on 1 word and not the statement, it's dumb and highly annoying. If I corrupt a 500 hp unit and kill it, 100 of the damage is caused by Corruption. Is this wording better? Do you understand it this way? Maybe put it in 5 word sentences? That doesn't change the fact that Corruptors can't deal any damage to ground units on their own, which is untrue of every other air unit barring dropships/observers. A unit with more versatility should be less effective at its various roles than an even more expensive unit with only one defined role, that's just basic internal balance. How do you possibly expect to justify increasing Viking performance versus Corruptors while maintaining that? By, as said, the fact that corruptors are easilly producable en masse, and faster than Vikings, which should come at the cost of being weaker. And don't tell me vikings are usable vs ground, that would make you look laughably silly.
They're more usable versus ground targets than Corruptors. They can still raid undefended worker lines and kill buildings. I would argue they could use a buff to ground mode stats actually, but that's besides the point.
The additional speed Corruptors have over Vikings is necessary to deal with the additional range on the latter, otherwise they could be easily kited ad infinitum. Suggesting a more expensive and less versatile unit should be worse than your races alternative because of larvae mechanics is stupid. Resources still need to be invested, and those larvae could have been used to produce other units or harvesters.
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United States7166 Posts
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks.
this is not a thread to soapbox your opinions on whatever balance thoughts you have with anything SC2, try to keep it related to the topic.
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On May 03 2012 16:10 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:07 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 03 2012 15:28 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough. zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air. hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is. the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason... I know you are zerg but how is it possible you are so biased. 4 hellions are a pretty big investment and all you need to chase them away is a single roach. ThI am in ddisbelief of anything I hear and see, if something, tumors should cost more energy and build up slower. You get them for free, while as zerg you have far superior economy wh. How balanced is that. Anyway, I am so bewildered that I just cant express my sadness. World is really full of very ignorant people. 4 hellions are not that big of an investment, they only cost minerals... and mules are amazing. 4 hellions are there mainly to stop creep spread and deny zerg from ever taking a quick third. if u force even a single roach then that is a added bonus. u have to realize how useless roaches are in zvt. making 3-4 of them is wasted money and supply as there only purpose will be to defend hellions against hellions. u should NEVER want to make roaches in zvt unless u know for a fact the terran is going mech or making an adnormal amount of hellions. srsly, that really annoys me when ppl defend hellions by saying "make roaches, EZ". u do not realize how useless roaches are in that MU. also, mules. Hellions cost Terran 400 minerals. That is another base. meanwhile typing up the factory and delaying tech. WIth the creepbuff, hellions don't have a function anymore. Denying a third on creep vs speedling? gl. Also, Mules are an integral part of Terran economy. You can produce 20 drones at a time, I get my 3 mules. YOu cannot say Mules are free, additional income, it is the income needed to keep terran EVEN on income. Also, 2/3/4 Roaches are good vs the first tankpush, if you take the time to position your army. A roach takes 3 tank shots, and in the first push, using roaches, you can take the first 2 volleys of the tanks and 1a ezpz
what will terran do with "another base" without hellions for map control? if he skips those 4 hellions and instead make a CC, do u srsly think he will be able to defend it with no hellions on the map? do u realize what those 400 minerals worth of hellions do? ur not going to do anything with a faster base any time soon, and it will just allow zerg to take a quick 3rd of his own and saturate it quicker.
hellions will always have a function, the creep spread wont magically make them useless... especially with blue flame hellion builds. the change is honestly no different from making a super fast 3rd queen. the effect is almost exactly the same with the only difference being that u dont waste a extra 150 minerals on a 3rd queen. and making that 3rd queen>>>>> better then making a roach warren.
its honestly not that big of a deal like some of u ppl make it out to be. u guys always overreact to even the smallest of changes... its so damn silly.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On May 03 2012 16:09 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:00 ContrailNZ wrote:On May 03 2012 15:58 Cyro wrote:
I wonder if blizzard considered the consequences of queen spawn energy increase on back to back larvae injects. As it is now, larvae inject takes 40 seconds, but the energy regeneration to inject again takes 44.444 seconds. If one were to go, lets say, 3 hatch before gas into a bunch of gasses with a roach warren, couldnt they use the extra ~9.9% inject uptime for a significantly early max out? I dont think money is an issue, as stephano usually throws down a macro hatch and a fourth base on his way to maxing. The 11 minute max could be pushed even earlier, and aside from the consequences of early queens and gasless ZvT styles becoming significantly more powerful, it worries me a lot. Yeah, early max out is the issue I have. I would want to know how the change affected max army size timings and if this changed things. nice idea, but i dont think it will change the max time realistically, even by the current top players, zergs are not all injecting the second they get 25 energy every single time up until they max. there's too much to do in a real game to be that exact, so that extra couple seconds of not having to wait for 2 more energy is insignificant.
3 energy.
Suddenly injecting at 109.9% of previous efficiency is NOT insignificant at all, and it is nothing to ask of a 3hatching zerg pro in my opinion.
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On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks.
Just lock it if you want us to stop arguing.
There's 2 fronts.
1: Zergs that find they are having a very hard time and deserve buffs because there's no zergs in GSL Ro8.
2: Terrans that are angry at everyone and everything saying those buffs are justified because Terran gets nerfed once again, while having the most terrible race except for GM Korea.
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On May 03 2012 16:14 caradoc wrote:
I'd love to see people do baneling drops with slow overlords. When I read this I imagined the following:
"Oh, that overlord doesn't have speed. He's just scouting. One stalker should take care of this."
...
"OH GOD MY PROBES NOOOOOOOOOOO"
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On May 03 2012 16:14 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:11 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:02 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:53 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:48 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent. I hope you realize why Terran all-ins work so well. It is because Terran is favored early/mid game.... Protoss have realized that Terran are doing mostly all-ins recently, know why they can't stop it regardless? Because Terran is favored early/mid game. If you try and deny this fact you are basically calling Protosses idiots that can't figure out how to hold off Terran all-ins. The reason Protoss can't is because early/mid game units of Terran beat Protoss units at that phase. Reading is hard. I said that a lot of the statistical imbalance is combined with the all- ins, which strike early-game, so there is no evidence to claim that terran early game is incredibly more powerful. Protoss plays greedy, Terran punishes with strong all-ins. If the punishing works, we win, if it doesn't, Protoss get's away with being greedy, wins lategame. honest protosses (maybe get a cannon? you go double forge double upgrades (500/200 cost) and seem to find it normal to get away with it) may make 1/2 cannons with those forges, defend vs drops with stalkers and forcefield the front. Instead of being greedy and claiming imbalance, you could try playing more defensive and see Terran falther. Rofl. If you see Protoss playing defensively and still try to all-in you deserve to lose. End of story. You see Protoss playing defense take advantage of it. I.E. Double Expand, Upgrades, Tech, etc... Do you see what you say? Because Protoss plays defensive, we have to DoubleExpo/Upgrade/Tech, summarized, focus on the late game. Being defensive doesn't mean you are behind in the game. So, if Protoss plays defensive, Protoss/Terran enter the lategame on even footing > Protoss wins80% of those games. You just prove what I said?! The rofl is on you sir. Not quite. Protoss is stuck in the base with basically 0 vision. If you can't find a way to exploit that thats all on you. Also, if you double expanded and teched you should be ahead in every aspect. So even if he somehow kills your army, you should have more production and planetary fortresses for instance to buy you time and mop up the rest of the Protoss army. Not my fault you are bad at coming up with strategies. You probably have what most people have. They copy Pro players styles and expect them to come up with all the answers. Most don't even understand why the build is good and why it functions how it does. So without any knowledge of me you insult me by saying I just copy pro's and am to stupid to understand what I am actually doing? The ignorance. Also, clearly you suck, Protoss on 2 base with 0 vision?!!!?!??!?!?! THAT asks on being exploited, however, you get an al most free 20 second to produce MAPHACK to SEE what I AM DOING even when you are LOCKED IN YOU BASE. I don't really see a double expand working. Expanding to a third is difficult if the Protoss just moves out and attacks. I'm pretty sure that, in this sutuation, you are the bad fellow.
Don't even know why I am arguing with you. Put up a couple turrets in your base and scan and all the observers are gone. I know this is must be something new to you, but build a Raven. It is meant to detect things, thats right, you don't have to rely on scans. And if you can't tell wether or not Protoss is building up for an all-in or expanding you again deserve to lose. All you have to do is basically use 3 scans on Protoss throughout game(up until ~11min mark) and you will know what he is doing. You have the Protoss contained, he can't really hide his units anywhere now can he?
Oh btw, send me a replay. I'll gladly take a look at it and then take back my comment if I am wrong.
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On May 03 2012 16:19 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:10 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:07 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 03 2012 15:28 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough. zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air. hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is. the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason... I know you are zerg but how is it possible you are so biased. 4 hellions are a pretty big investment and all you need to chase them away is a single roach. ThI am in ddisbelief of anything I hear and see, if something, tumors should cost more energy and build up slower. You get them for free, while as zerg you have far superior economy wh. How balanced is that. Anyway, I am so bewildered that I just cant express my sadness. World is really full of very ignorant people. 4 hellions are not that big of an investment, they only cost minerals... and mules are amazing. 4 hellions are there mainly to stop creep spread and deny zerg from ever taking a quick third. if u force even a single roach then that is a added bonus. u have to realize how useless roaches are in zvt. making 3-4 of them is wasted money and supply as there only purpose will be to defend hellions against hellions. u should NEVER want to make roaches in zvt unless u know for a fact the terran is going mech or making an adnormal amount of hellions. srsly, that really annoys me when ppl defend hellions by saying "make roaches, EZ". u do not realize how useless roaches are in that MU. also, mules. Hellions cost Terran 400 minerals. That is another base. meanwhile typing up the factory and delaying tech. WIth the creepbuff, hellions don't have a function anymore. Denying a third on creep vs speedling? gl. Also, Mules are an integral part of Terran economy. You can produce 20 drones at a time, I get my 3 mules. YOu cannot say Mules are free, additional income, it is the income needed to keep terran EVEN on income. Also, 2/3/4 Roaches are good vs the first tankpush, if you take the time to position your army. A roach takes 3 tank shots, and in the first push, using roaches, you can take the first 2 volleys of the tanks and 1a ezpz what will terran do with "another base" without hellions for map control? if he skips those 4 hellions and instead make a CC, do u srsly think he will be able to defend it with no hellions on the map? do u realize what those 400 minerals worth of hellions do? ur not going to do anything with a faster base any time soon, and it will just allow zerg to take a quick 3rd of his own and saturate it quicker. hellions will always have a function, the creep spread wont magically make them useless... especially with blue flame hellion builds. the change is honestly no different from making a super fast 3rd queen. the effect is almost exactly the same with the only difference being that u dont waste a extra 150 minerals on a 3rd queen. and making that 3rd queen>>>>> better then making a roach warren.
No comments.
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On May 03 2012 16:21 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:14 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:11 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 16:02 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:53 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:48 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent. I hope you realize why Terran all-ins work so well. It is because Terran is favored early/mid game.... Protoss have realized that Terran are doing mostly all-ins recently, know why they can't stop it regardless? Because Terran is favored early/mid game. If you try and deny this fact you are basically calling Protosses idiots that can't figure out how to hold off Terran all-ins. The reason Protoss can't is because early/mid game units of Terran beat Protoss units at that phase. Reading is hard. I said that a lot of the statistical imbalance is combined with the all- ins, which strike early-game, so there is no evidence to claim that terran early game is incredibly more powerful. Protoss plays greedy, Terran punishes with strong all-ins. If the punishing works, we win, if it doesn't, Protoss get's away with being greedy, wins lategame. honest protosses (maybe get a cannon? you go double forge double upgrades (500/200 cost) and seem to find it normal to get away with it) may make 1/2 cannons with those forges, defend vs drops with stalkers and forcefield the front. Instead of being greedy and claiming imbalance, you could try playing more defensive and see Terran falther. Rofl. If you see Protoss playing defensively and still try to all-in you deserve to lose. End of story. You see Protoss playing defense take advantage of it. I.E. Double Expand, Upgrades, Tech, etc... Do you see what you say? Because Protoss plays defensive, we have to DoubleExpo/Upgrade/Tech, summarized, focus on the late game. Being defensive doesn't mean you are behind in the game. So, if Protoss plays defensive, Protoss/Terran enter the lategame on even footing > Protoss wins80% of those games. You just prove what I said?! The rofl is on you sir. Not quite. Protoss is stuck in the base with basically 0 vision. If you can't find a way to exploit that thats all on you. Also, if you double expanded and teched you should be ahead in every aspect. So even if he somehow kills your army, you should have more production and planetary fortresses for instance to buy you time and mop up the rest of the Protoss army. Not my fault you are bad at coming up with strategies. You probably have what most people have. They copy Pro players styles and expect them to come up with all the answers. Most don't even understand why the build is good and why it functions how it does. So without any knowledge of me you insult me by saying I just copy pro's and am to stupid to understand what I am actually doing? The ignorance. Also, clearly you suck, Protoss on 2 base with 0 vision?!!!?!??!?!?! THAT asks on being exploited, however, you get an al most free 20 second to produce MAPHACK to SEE what I AM DOING even when you are LOCKED IN YOU BASE. I don't really see a double expand working. Expanding to a third is difficult if the Protoss just moves out and attacks. I'm pretty sure that, in this sutuation, you are the bad fellow. Don't even know why I am arguing with you. Put up a couple turrets in your base and scan and all the observers are gone. I know this is must be something new to you, but build a Raven. It is meant to detect things, thats right, you don't have to rely on scans. And if you can't tell wether or not Protoss is building up for an all-in or expanding you again deserve to lose. All you have to do is basically use 3 scans on Protoss throughout game(up until ~11min mark) and you will know what he is doing. You have the Protoss contained, he can't really hide his units anywhere now can he? Oh btw, send me a replay. I'll gladly take a look at it and then take back my comment if I am wrong.
Don't even know why I am arguing with you. ^2
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One big change of raising queens' starting energy to 50 is that as soon as they spawn they have a transfuse ready. Zerg will get a big boost aggainst airplay, and blizz should consider that when making this change.
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On May 03 2012 16:24 Apolo wrote:
One big change of raising queens' starting energy to 50 is that as soon as they spawn they have a transfuse ready. Zerg will get a big boost aggainst airplay, and blizz should consider that when making this change.
I completely agree with this. I find myself struggling with early air though, maybe because I tend to be greedy, so the transfuse with my second or third queen would be really nice.
On the other hand I think that Blizzard is allowing the Queen to become less of a stay-at-home mom which would be AWESOME to see in high level play. Maybe forget the energy increase, but increase speed of queen off creep? That would be nice!
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On May 03 2012 16:18 Zelniq wrote:
this is a warning. stop arguing back and forth offtopic and making personal attacks.
this is not a thread to soapbox your opinions on whatever you think is balanced or not.
Agree with your sentiment about offtopic remarks and getting into childish back and forth's... but then you follow it up with "this is not a thread for opinions on balance"
I mean c'mon...... what did you think people were gonna talk about in a thread about new balance changes. If someone is maturely having a discussion about the changes, they wouldn't be off-topic.
Edit: DON'T BAN ME BRO =( <3
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They should have experimented with making hallucination cheaper or faster to get or something. As it is, an Obs costs the cost of itself as well as a RF. Hallucination is already something you can get at the Cyber core. Basically you force a certain tech path if you want P to be able to scout early game. The flip side to this is that if they want early scouting, they have to delay warp gates a smidgen. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing though. Just something I thought of off the top of my head. You'd think Blizzard would have thought of this. I guess they didn't which makes my suggestion a good idea.
I think the Queen buff might be too much, but as a Zerg player, I'm not complaining at all. I'm really happy actually. It might not even that big a deal tbh because most zergs suck at both injecting and creep spreading. This will only be good for the good zergs I guess.
Early scouting problem for Z has always been a problem, but making OLs slightly faster isn't going to do too much I think. They should really have moved OL speed down to hatch tech instead of lair tech. But again, that's just my little suggestion.
Even with these changes SC2 is still coin flippy.
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On May 03 2012 16:15 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 16:07 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:40 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 03 2012 15:28 Ballistixz wrote:On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough. zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air. hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is. the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason... I know you are zerg but how is it possible you are so biased. 4 hellions are a pretty big investment and all you need to chase them away is a single roach. ThI am in ddisbelief of anything I hear and see, if something, tumors should cost more energy and build up slower. You get them for free, while as zerg you have far superior economy wh. How balanced is that. Anyway, I am so bewildered that I just cant express my sadness. World is really full of very ignorant people. 4 hellions are not that big of an investment, they only cost minerals... and mules are amazing. 4 hellions are there mainly to stop creep spread and deny zerg from ever taking a quick third. if u force even a single roach then that is a added bonus. u have to realize how useless roaches are in zvt. making 3-4 of them is wasted money and supply as there only purpose will be to defend hellions against hellions. u should NEVER want to make roaches in zvt unless u know for a fact the terran is going mech or making an adnormal amount of hellions. srsly, that really annoys me when ppl defend hellions by saying "make roaches, EZ". u do not realize how useless roaches are in that MU.also, mules. in terms of race usefulness mules will ALWAYS be better then creep tumors any day of the week. so i dont even understand why terran players complain about creep spread so much, its really not that huge of a deal and wont dramatically effect the game. it certainly wont make it imba either. Uhhh roaches are not useless in ZvT. The metagame is actually shifting towards early roach to deny hellions and to get a early third followed by double evo +1melee +1carapace and then going to infestors. Plus, roaches are decent against mech and counter those mass hellions.Getting roaches may also threaten the terran to overeact because they can assume you are going for some roach+bane all-in which is popular against terran these day. To say that roaches are useless in that match-up is not so smart. But i believe this queen change will be good though.We will see how it plays out.
i said that roaches are only good against mech, but any other time there not so great. against normal hellion builds id MUCH rather build a few extra queens for the creep spread and save my gas for quicker upgrades/lair/etc. also, queens are alot better at tanking tank shots from early marine tank pushes then roaches are on top of the fact that they can trans fuse the first tank shots off. as for mass hellion builds? well 9 times out of 10 if u see mass hellions with blue flame it means they are going mech, so roaches are the safe option.
so yes, imo roaches are useless. against normal hellion/non mech builds u can do so much more with queens, especially now with this buff to them.
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EPT
