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not sure about the observer build time change, Parting going to be super imba.
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On May 03 2012 15:18 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:15 windsupernova wrote:On May 03 2012 15:02 Penecks wrote:
Oh man as T every patch just brings more and more pain... zergs with good creep spread are already scary as hell, now they can start it so much earlier, and in multiple directions which is very important. Queen + ovie change would pretty much kill off the remainder of any terran 1 base play, which I'm sure some people would be glad to see, but remember it does limit the options of players, and makes the game much more predictable to play and watch.
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain. Ummm, well wouldn´t queens coming out with 50 energy would give you emergency transfuses on demand? As in if you see a super early rush coming you emergency build a Queen and you will have 1 transfuse available? Dunno about the creep but the insta transfuse I think will affect early game I'm not so sure 150 minerals is worth it just for a transfuse "on demand" ... why not spend the 100 and get another spine crawler? same build time.
Well if you are on an emergency you are going to want whatever unit you can make. Queens are mobile and have later uses.
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I think it’s really too early to say exactly how these changes will pan out but I like the overlord change. This will make sacrificial overlords a bit more useful and help you find your opponent a bit sooner for information on really really fast aggressive builds. The queen one I am a bit more skeptical. I like the idea of and earlier transfuse for helping hold aggression such as air play, however as a toss player lots of creep spread scares me (not saying it shouldn't be there because I don’t like it but having a lot of creep really makes it hard for toss to attack unless they just have a superb army (ask stephano, he delays pushes all the time with lots of creep spread on maps like shattered. By the time the toss feels comfortable about the creep the zerg has his army and is ready for the attack). The robo change is a nice for toss because it can make help minimize damage when you have to build a reactionary observer (ie cloak banshee in your mineral line) however not really sure if that is what is needed, just going have to wait and see how this one plays out.
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On May 03 2012 15:42 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available.
Corruption deals 100 damage to Thors?!
For the race with the best production, best econ and fastest unit-location, having the most cost efficient is not fair.
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United States7166 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:40 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
But you're assuming everyone will still get 2 extra earlyish queens for creep after the change.. You get two free tumors from the main and natural queen so Z players will probably be able to delay getting creep queens significantly
nah it makes sense to still devote at least 1 queen to making tumors for a while even with this change.. because 2 tumors isn't enough, you definitely want more in zvt, and the earlier the better still, just like it is now. not to mention they double as defending with their fat bodies and short ranged attack vs hellions (help plug up holes), and of course can be used for other purposes like later injecting on future hatcheries, antiair, etc. queens are just too useful to not get, this change would not change that and players refusing to get extra queens are still missing out on all those benefits.
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On May 03 2012 15:40 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
But you're assuming everyone will still get 2 extra earlyish queens for creep after the change.. You get two free tumors from the main and natural queen so Z players will probably be able to delay getting creep queens significantly
Creep queens are also for defense against helions and banshee.
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On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent.
I hope you realize why Terran all-ins work so well. It is because Terran is favored early/mid game.... Protoss have realized that Terran are doing mostly all-ins recently, know why they can't stop it regardless? Because Terran is favored early/mid game. If you try and deny this fact you are basically calling Protosses idiots that can't figure out how to hold off Terran all-ins. The reason Protoss can't is because early/mid game units of Terran beat Protoss units at that phase.
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United States7166 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:43 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
The main differences in terms of spreading creep now, and after patch, are that you get an earlier short in spreading creep close to your base, and that if you aren't devoting any queens to spreading creep (solely on injects), then obviously having 2 tumors spreading is infinitely better than 0. What about the quick 2 base pushes Terrans do on occasions? The one meant to hit right before baneling speed and mutas, and rely on creep spread for defense. Doesn't this extra energy affect that quite a bit being so early?
good zergs already will have creep spread regardless of thischange. they'll still be getting extra queens even with change too, as i stated above.
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On May 03 2012 15:43 Fission wrote:
If blizz keeps in this direction the game will be unplayable for T at a casual level - maybe it's time everybody just packs it in and switches, like blizz seems to want.
They specifically targeted these changes such that they would minimize the effect on low-level games by doing it on things like creep spread and scout timing, the kinds of things that are all-important in high level games but secondary to things like improving mechanics and getting your strategy down in lower level games.
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On May 03 2012 15:35 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. That is not even the issue.
Of course not. I was simply correcting him.
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On May 03 2012 15:35 drbrown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:29 ContrailNZ wrote:On May 03 2012 15:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players In RO32 matches of Code S Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss. Game 1 MC beat Nestea because he did a risky one base mass stalker all in and Nestea was caught offgaurd / over droned. Game 2 Nestea tried a highly risky Hydra all in and had a build order loss as MC had gone early collosus. Game 1 Hero beat Leenock because Hero went for a timing attack and abused the map ramp which can be blocked with 1 forcefield. Game 2 Hero lost to Leenock because he tried to take a 3rd and play a macro game vs mass roach / ling. Game 3 Leenock still would have won with Broodlords, but he managed to get lose his greater spire and then shortly after before he had rebuild it he let all of his infesters get vortexed then insta gibbed while he lost all his naked Broodlords vs blink stalker = owned. Biggest mistake ever. Then as Leenock still had no greater spire he switched to Ultralisks which suck = gg. So basically Zerg lost every game to highly risky 1 off attacks that will basically never work / work on most maps. The only legit mass roach / ling game Zerg won and Leenock only lost game 3 due to massive mistakes / being caught offgaurd. How is a mass roach/ling game legit if Heros timing in game 1 wasn't?
Because that strategy of Hero only worked due to horrible map design.
You can't do that strat on other maps eg where multiple forcefeilds are required to block a ramp.
(this is because you can't warp in enough sentry to keep the FF up long enough to matter).
Even then it is stoppable, but hard to stop where there are close spawns on maps with a one FF choke.
The point I was making is that roach / ling is a generic strategy that gives a big advantage to Zerg in basically every map.
Where as in the series that TheRabidDeer stating showed PvZ are balanced all the games were very unusual and the strategies the P won with would not work very often.
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United States7166 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:45 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
The main differences in terms of spreading creep now, and after patch, are that you get an earlier short in spreading creep close to your base, and that if you aren't devoting any queens to spreading creep (solely on injects), then obviously having 2 tumors spreading is infinitely better than 0. imo having that extremely fast early creep spread has huge implications in terms of defending early rushes (moving spines forward, lingspeed bonus, more vision). whereas normally you would sacrifice an inject or wait for 3rd/4th queen before starting it.
how early of a rush you talking here? cus right now koreans are getting their 3rd/4th queens right after the first 2 are done. and actually they'll spawn 2 tumors right when the first 2 queens get 25 energy again, just before the 3rd/4th queen pop up. this is assuming terrans playing standard 1rax CC. so yes 2 tumors like 48 ingame seconds earlier helps, but mostly just for a short time, and isn't that the point? to help start spreading the creep quicker?
i mean if youre talking early hellion pokes with a gas opening then yes that does help a little bit there like you said, but it doesn't really seem all that significant. Sure moving up a spine earlier to push back the hellion a bit more is nice, but so what? and it's not like zergs can just delay speed for their lings or something, slowlings still blow vs hellions. if it's delayed hellions with 1rax CC well players already have multiple tumors out by the hellion timing even before the change. And as for the vision.. a little more vision towards your natural choke? whoopdedoo 
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On May 03 2012 15:47 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:42 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available. Corruption deals 100 damage to Thors?! For the race with the best production, best econ and fastest unit-location, having the most cost efficient is not fair.
Corruption doesn't deal damage you idiot. And if Corruptors weren't cost efficient they would be even more a massive waste of supply than they are now.
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On May 03 2012 15:48 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent. I hope you realize why Terran all-ins work so well. It is because Terran is favored early/mid game.... Protoss have realized that Terran are doing mostly all-ins recently, know why they can't stop it regardless? Because Terran is favored early/mid game. If you try and deny this fact you are basically calling Protosses idiots that can't figure out how to hold off Terran all-ins. The reason Protoss can't is because early/mid game units of Terran beat Protoss units at that phase.
Reading is hard.
I said that a lot of the statistical imbalance is combined with the all- ins, which strike early-game, so there is no evidence to claim that terran early game is incredibly more powerful. Protoss plays greedy, Terran punishes with strong all-ins. If the punishing works, we win, if it doesn't, Protoss get's away with being greedy, wins lategame.
honest protosses (maybe get a cannon? you go double forge double upgrades (500/200 cost) and seem to find it normal to get away with it) may make 1/2 cannons with those forges, defend vs drops with stalkers and forcefield the front.
Instead of being greedy and claiming imbalance, you could try playing more defensive and see Terran falther.
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On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent.
Not all-ins, exactly, but it forces Terran to attempt to set the pace for the match. Of course, Zerg and Protoss can also set the pace if they choose, but both have lategame options they feel comfortable with. Terran is always against the clock, and their tools to diffuse the bomb are being slowly stripped away.
It reminds me of the old arcade racing games, where you have to hit check points to keep racing. You have to do each leg by some set time, but even that doesn't guarantee a first place win. In the same way, you must hit all your Terran checkpoints of aggression, or you lose. But, even if you hit them all, you can still lose.
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On May 03 2012 15:52 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:47 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:42 SmileZerg wrote:On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available. Corruption deals 100 damage to Thors?! For the race with the best production, best econ and fastest unit-location, having the most cost efficient is not fair. Corruption doesn't deal damage you idiot. And if Corruptors weren't cost efficient they would be even more a massive waste of supply than they are now.
Stop fucking every word in my post in the back so you can reply on 1 word and not the statement, it's dumb and highly annoying.
If I corrupt a 500 hp unit and kill it, 100 of the damage is caused by Corruption.
Is this wording better? Do you understand it this way? Maybe put it in 5 word sentences?
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Buff to early z/p, but no buff to t late game, gz blizzard.
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Anyway back to my point. I think Zerg need better scouting vs Terran, but these changes boosts Z v P and will cause more problems in this matchup then it will fix vs Terran.
Maybe if they buff overlord speed but help Protoss early game somehow that would work.
Perhaps boosting Zealot speed by 10%? That would make them slightly better vs Zerg against Roaches and make them very slightly better vs kiting Terran. The change could be too much though.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
I wonder if blizzard considered the consequences of queen spawn energy increase on back to back larvae injects. As it is now, larvae inject takes 40 seconds, but the energy regeneration to inject again takes 44.444 seconds. If one were to go, lets say, 3 hatch before gas into a bunch of gasses with a roach warren, couldnt they use the extra ~9.9% inject uptime for a significantly early max out? I dont think money is an issue, as stephano usually throws down a macro hatch and a fourth base on his way to maxing. The 11 minute max could be pushed even earlier, and aside from the consequences of early queens and gasless ZvT styles becoming significantly more powerful, it worries me a lot.
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On May 03 2012 15:54 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:42 Toastie wrote:
I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent. Not all-ins, exactly, but it forces Terran to attempt to set the pace for the match. Of course, Zerg and Protoss can also set the pace if they choose, but both have lategame options they feel comfortable with. Terran is always against the clock, and their tools to diffuse the bomb are being slowly stripped away. It reminds me of the old arcade racing games, where you have to hit check points to keep racing. You have to do each leg by some set time, but even that doesn't guarantee a first place win. In the same way, you must hit all your Terran checkpoints of aggression, or you lose. But, even if you hit them all, you can still lose.
That is a beautiful comparison!
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EPT
