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On May 03 2012 15:17 ContrailNZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:14 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:10 Corrosive wrote:On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote:On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:
Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow.
50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane.
The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game.
I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower. Blahblahblah. Every drone costs infinity recourses. Notice the word 'potential', I already thought of nitwicks. Now, please answer my argument instead of being annoying ^^ Wow, what league are you? If you mule instead of scanning you have an extra 300 minerals to use. That is an extra 6 marines. That is a lot early on, or with multiple mules it becomes 12 / 18 etc etc..
It seems that he is trying to express what you are saying. I don't understand the meaning of the "every drone costs infinity resources" but I think he's using that to imitate the others' logic, not to counter-attack their arguments. If you look at the older posts someone is arguing that Scan just delays your 300 minerals, which is of course true but the important thing is that you have 300 less minerals to spend earlier...
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On May 03 2012 15:17 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:15 Varrik wrote:
Honest suggestion, why don't they just buff energy regeneration a little bit so the first tumor goes down earlier? I'm not saying a whole hell of a lot, i don't know the rate, but it could be a middle ground between starting with 50 energy and not getting that transfuse right when they pop. I mean a 4 queen opener would obviously screw air aggression but isn't that the point anyway? Zerg early game defense is in need of a buff and I think they are trying out different things. At least it's going in the right direction.
No flames please >.< This build-up of energy used to measure how good a player was at macro, but if you buff the energy regen you could make zergs not have to skip an inject if they delay the creep spread a bit.
I mean I guess more people would go with skipping the inject originally since that first inject would come quicker but I kinda think that may achieve the intended fix anyways. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but yea.
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On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players
going 15-4 PvZ probably didnt hurt either
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I must have missed it, but it's weird that Blizz is nerfing cloak openings. Previously, if cloakshees got to the P base when the obs had moved out, it was a decent way to do economic damage. Now, with chrono, that time about a third less. (33->20 in game sec?)
Also, this means earlier immos while playing safe, as observers eat into immo production time.
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Oh also you get less than 25 energy between injects. If you inject perfectly there's like a 2 second window.
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On May 03 2012 15:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:17 ContrailNZ wrote:On May 03 2012 15:14 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:10 Corrosive wrote:On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote:On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:
Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow.
50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane.
The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game.
I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower. Blahblahblah. Every drone costs infinity recourses. Notice the word 'potential', I already thought of nitwicks. Now, please answer my argument instead of being annoying ^^ Wow, what league are you? If you mule instead of scanning you have an extra 300 minerals to use. That is an extra 6 marines. That is a lot early on, or with multiple mules it becomes 12 / 18 etc etc.. It seems that he is trying to express what you are saying. I don't understand the meaning of the "every drone costs infinity resources" but I think he's using that to imitate the others' logic, not to counter-attack their arguments. If you look at the older posts someone is arguing that Scan just delays your 300 minerals, which is of course true but the important thing is that you have 300 less minerals to spend earlier...
The logic I used was that every zerg structure costs a drone and therefore infinity recourses.
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They should be nerfing hellions' ability to kill creep tumors instead. Either buff the hp of creep tumors so that the whole screen of creep tumors don't die in a scan, or make it such that the creep tumor is still invisible when spreading. I have no damn idea why they make creep tumors visible when spreading anyway. Invisible/visible creep tumor have pretty much no influence on any matchups except hellion openings.. Only hellions, and to a certain extent banshees & voidrays have the ability to stop creep spread without detection. So if they judge hellions' ability to deny creep spread to strong, why not just tackle the problem straight on. They can still kill a screen worth of creep tumors if they scan anyway.
And those who complain about the overlord speed buff ought to get shot. Just because foreigner terrans suck against zerg doesn't mean the top terran players suck. They pretty much already said this patch is aimed at the very top tier. Just look at the recent gsl, more and more games include cutting corners. If there's no reliable scouting info, might as well flip the coin. Bad progamers will be happy they are the one initiating the coin flip, since they can practise those blind build orders in advance. Reliable scouting need to stay, and if they really deem the scouting knowledge to be too powerful indirectly, go nerf some other stuff then. SC2 needs to be fucking less volatile. I guess the same thing applies to the buff in obs build time.
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wow queen with 50 energy? you can deny pretty much all of the terran all in with transfuse (banshee, hellion, etc) a bit overpowred imo.
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On May 03 2012 15:24 babysimba wrote:
They should be nerfing hellions' ability to kill creep tumors instead. Either buff the hp of creep tumors so that the whole screen of creep tumors don't die in a scan, or make it such that the creep tumor is still invisible when spreading. I have no damn idea why they make creep tumors visible when spreading anyway. Invisible/visible creep tumor have pretty much no influence on any matchups except hellion openings.. Only hellions, and to a certain extent banshees & voidrays have the ability to stop creep spread without detection. So if they judge hellions' ability to deny creep spread to strong, why not just tackle the problem straight on. They can still kill a screen worth of creep tumors if they scan anyway.
WHAT?
ARE YOU SERIOUS!?
4 hellions kill 3, maybe 4 tumors / scan if left unattended.
By the way; Hellion openers ARE DESIGNED TO stop creep spread.
Would you like full map coverage of creep when reaching hive tech too?
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overlord speed is totally fair. Can't imagine that one not going through.
Now, the queen energy buff...I once thought about that back when things were really bad, but since then it seems Zergs have figured out how to effectively get extra queens in later gas openings, so there's no need. DRG in particular has made me a huge fan of the quad queen opening he does in ZvT. It gives you ridiculous creep spread, more anti-air, and you can recycle the queens at expansions later on. 50 energy queens with this build just sounds a little too strong.
Might not be as bad against protoss, 11 pool/18 hatch would be pretty awesome with an early 50 energy queen. ZvZ could be a tad more interesting as well early on with a tad more energy for transfuse.
If anything, I just want neural parasite rebuffed. Thing was never op, and now it just sucks -_-
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On May 03 2012 15:22 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players going 15-4 PvZ probably didnt hurt either
im going to sleep idra, i trust you will keep these complainers in line for me 
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On May 03 2012 15:23 Ghanburighan wrote:
I must have missed it, but it's weird that Blizz is nerfing cloak openings. Previously, if cloakshees got to the P base when the obs had moved out, it was a decent way to do economic damage. Now, with chrono, that time about a third less. (33->20 in game sec?)
Also, this means earlier immos while playing safe, as observers eat into immo production time.
The problem is that the threat of cloak is causing a lot of other builds to be a little bit too ambiguous, because you have to keep your observer pulled back until the 2nd one is out. If they go through with this change, they have other options to make cloak strong (through it's build time) without having an effect on other builds.
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On May 03 2012 15:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players In RO32 matches of Code S Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss.
Whoa, slow down there buddy. That doesn't perpetuate the myth that Terrans are too powerful and their matchup imbalance make it T heavy. Never mind that for months PvZ has been highly unstable, and they often dwindle each others numbers before Terrans even face them.
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On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough.
zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air.
hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is.
the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason...
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All three changes are really good.
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On May 03 2012 15:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players In RO32 matches of Code S Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss.
Game 1 MC beat Nestea because he did a risky one base mass stalker all in and Nestea was caught offgaurd / over droned.
Game 2 Nestea tried a highly risky Hydra all in and had a build order loss as MC had gone early collosus.
Game 1 Hero beat Leenock because Hero went for a timing attack and abused the map ramp which can be blocked with 1 forcefield.
Game 2 Hero lost to Leenock because he tried to take a 3rd and play a macro game vs mass roach / ling.
Game 3 Leenock still would have won with Broodlords, but he managed to get lose his greater spire and then shortly after before he had rebuild it he let all of his infesters get vortexed then insta gibbed while he lost all his naked Broodlords vs blink stalker = owned. Biggest mistake ever. Then as Leenock still had no greater spire he switched to Ultralisks which suck = gg.
So basically Zerg lost every game to highly risky 1 off attacks that will basically never work / work on most maps. The only legit mass roach / ling game Zerg won and Leenock only lost game 3 due to massive mistakes / being caught offgaurd.
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ok i can give it a shot, but if reactor hellion opening in TvZ is gimped, then i dont know what to do anymore.
Ye sure 1 rax FE, and then i got creep outside my door when im about to move out, praying that my drop that got scouted by the overlord on its way to zerg base does some damage.
Hm dont like these changes, at least they noticed the stupid matchup that is TvP, hi i got stim and medics i rule the world. Oh u got templars/collosi, ill hide and cry gah we normal humans cant keep up with this in terms of sheer apm/dicision making.
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On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal.
1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal.
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Cmon blizz stop acknowledging tvp's problems without doing anything about it. Also, queen change was dumb, whens the last time you saw a pro match with a Zerg in it that did not have insane creep spread in mid-late game. Commentators always marvel at this insane midgame creep spread like its special, but it's not. The overlord speed I will not begrudge them, though.
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On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal.
To be fair there is no way a T gets air upgrades in this matchup while it's a lot more common for Z. And that's a problem.
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EPT
