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On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal.
pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor).
Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal.
Corruptor>Viking
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On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal.
That is not even the issue. The issue is that when Terran loses the vikings it takes a large amount of time and travel distance to fight off any remaining broodlords.
When the Zerg loses corruptors/broodlords, he simply morphs more broodlords at the attack location after the battle which requires zero travel distance and not much time, and then is also able to morph anywhere from 4-20 corruptors at once from larva.
That is what matters when talking about balance. And yes, in vacuum situations or in general vikings do lose to corruptors, but in the majority of situations vikings lose because there are infestors with the corruptors.
Late game T is in shambles in TvZ/TvP right now, which is why it's disgusting they want to continue buffing Z/P further in any way, shape, or form without addressing Terran's lategame.
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Lol, I was more pumped about the overlord speed than the queen buff.
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On May 03 2012 15:34 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. To be fair there is no way a T gets air upgrades in this matchup while it's a lot more common for Z. And that's a problem.
You should be getting ship weapons later on...
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On May 03 2012 15:29 ContrailNZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players In RO32 matches of Code S Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss. Game 1 MC beat Nestea because he did a risky one base mass stalker all in and Nestea was caught offgaurd / over droned. Game 2 Nestea tried a highly risky Hydra all in and had a build order loss as MC had gone early collosus. Game 1 Hero beat Leenock because Hero went for a timing attack and abused the map ramp which can be blocked with 1 forcefield. Game 2 Hero lost to Leenock because he tried to take a 3rd and play a macro game vs mass roach / ling. Game 3 Leenock still would have won with Broodlords, but he managed to get lose his greater spire and then shortly after before he had rebuild it he let all of his infesters get vortexed then insta gibbed while he lost all his naked Broodlords vs blink stalker = owned. Biggest mistake ever. Then as Leenock still had no greater spire he switched to Ultralisks which suck = gg. So basically Zerg lost every game to highly risky 1 off attacks that will basically never work / work on most maps. The only legit mass roach / ling game Zerg won and Leenock only lost game 3 due to massive mistakes / being caught offgaurd.
How is a mass roach/ling game legit if Heros timing in game 1 wasn't?
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United States7166 Posts
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
The main differences in terms of spreading creep now, and after patch, are that you get an earlier short in spreading creep close to your base, and that if you aren't devoting any queens to spreading creep (solely on injects), then obviously having 2 tumors spreading is infinitely better than 0.
if it were up to me, the way i'd go about helping with zerg defense vs mostly early game situations would be to lower the spine crawler build time by about 10 seconds like I mentioned earlier, not this queen change. If the only issue with this is still early pool zvz, using offensive spine crawlers along with units, like I said earlier I don't think 10 second build time should effect the outcomes for most situations, provided the defending player reacts/plays correctly.
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I'm fine with the overlord change. 25% increase in speed is pretty significant, but from most of the games of GSL I've seen, overlord scouts vP usually see most of everything anyways if they aim it correctly because of the way protoss timing attacks work(no units at home), and macro builds aren't so scary. ZvT I think it helps a bit for that window where hellions are out on the map, and zerg doesn't have anything out on the map except overlords.
Queen energy buffed to 50 is too much IMO. For certain openings, afaik zergs don't have the money to spend on larva anyways so they put down a creep tumor instead. Instead of having 2 queens put down one tumor each, they can now have one queen put down 2 tumors, and then have a transfuse available. For other openings, they don't need to make the choice between larva and creep spread, both are possible.
Observer change, honestly I'd just scratch it. Doesn't fix the problems with any of the matchups aside from the occasional cloak banshee opening. Admittedly, a cloak banshee will kill ~3 less probes with observer buff, but seriously buff movespeed on observers if you want to buff protoss scouting.
If they really wanted to fix PvT it'd probably involve colossus/archon attack upgrade scaling and possibly a very slight naked(unupgraded) marine nerf.
Lategame PvZ is just a mess imo, mainly because infestor BL beats basically every non-mothership equipped protoss army. Not sure how to fix it.
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United States7166 Posts
also people try to stay on topic. This thread isn't about your soapbox of whatever balance issues you have with the game, keep it relevant to the subject
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On May 03 2012 15:28 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:19 Jaegeru wrote:
The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough. zerg lacks effective anti air in the early game, there only choice is queens and spores which is extremely ridiculous considering terrans have marines and toss has stalkers for early game anti air. hellions(if the terran is competent and denies creep tumors and denies zerg from taking a quick third) completely contain zerg for a good amount of time if creep is not spread fast enough. terrans dictate the flow of the early game way to easily as it is. the observer change im indifferent towards. most toss players get 1 or 2 observers for the entire game anyway and its usually never with there army so its w/e. i find it kinda sad since toss can deny creep spread pretty easily with observers, they should NEVER have to engage on creep, but they do anyway cuz they refuse to bring observers with there army for some reason...
I know you are zerg but how is it possible you are so biased. 4 hellions are a pretty big investment and all you need to chase them away is a single roach. ThI am in ddisbelief of anything I hear and see, if something, tumors should cost more energy and build up slower. You get them for free, while as zerg you have far superior economy wh. How balanced is that. Anyway, I am so bewildered that I just cant express my sadness. World is really full of very ignorant people.
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On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
But you're assuming everyone will still get 2 extra earlyish queens for creep after the change..
You get two free tumors from the main and natural queen so Z players will probably be able to delay getting creep queens significantly
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On May 03 2012 15:35 drbrown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:29 ContrailNZ wrote:On May 03 2012 15:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players In RO32 matches of Code S Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss. Game 1 MC beat Nestea because he did a risky one base mass stalker all in and Nestea was caught offgaurd / over droned. Game 2 Nestea tried a highly risky Hydra all in and had a build order loss as MC had gone early collosus. Game 1 Hero beat Leenock because Hero went for a timing attack and abused the map ramp which can be blocked with 1 forcefield. Game 2 Hero lost to Leenock because he tried to take a 3rd and play a macro game vs mass roach / ling. Game 3 Leenock still would have won with Broodlords, but he managed to get lose his greater spire and then shortly after before he had rebuild it he let all of his infesters get vortexed then insta gibbed while he lost all his naked Broodlords vs blink stalker = owned. Biggest mistake ever. Then as Leenock still had no greater spire he switched to Ultralisks which suck = gg. So basically Zerg lost every game to highly risky 1 off attacks that will basically never work / work on most maps. The only legit mass roach / ling game Zerg won and Leenock only lost game 3 due to massive mistakes / being caught offgaurd. How is a mass roach/ling game legit if Heros timing in game 1 wasn't?
I fail to see where he says that Hero's timing in game 1 was legit. He is merely pointing out that the Zerg player lost because he tried these weird strategies/all ins that failed. The point he is getting at is that Protoss didn't win because it is the better race, but because the Zerg did crappy builds that failed.
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Does more creep early on mean that we can get away with further away third bases on maps? Might give more room for creativity in map making. I'm interested to see how that turns out.
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On May 03 2012 15:34 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:31 Nourek wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 14:49 clever_us wrote:On May 03 2012 14:46 Toastie wrote:
I'm still waiting for my Tank buff. Tanks are pathetic in numbers < 25. That helps lategame.
It would also be nice if our 'air superiority unit' didnt lose 2v1 with Corruptors, whom are easier to produce and have an ability that actually is usefull. LOL how I wish vikings lost to corruptors when there were twice as many vikings. Holy shit late game ZvT would be a breeze... Edit: also wtf, tank buff? troll. It's not 2v1, but corruptors beat Vikings hardcore and the higher the upgrades, the worse the fight. Vikings ate harder to mass so, imo, should at least trade kind of equal. 1v1 with equal upgrades and starting to shoot at the same time, the corruptor survives with 12 hp left (4 of that from regen). And upgrades don't make a difference as long as they're equal. pretty sure they do. Terran gets +1*2 (which is nulified with 1 armor) and Zerg gets +2*1 (thus increasing over armor). Also, Corruptors are faster to mass, usually start with an upgrade advantage, are actually useful when Vikings are gone, don't take damage from Terran AoE (What it it, 20 damage/thor volley?) while Vikings lose 40hp/fungal. Corruptor>Viking
Corruptors also cost more gas than Vikings, have 3 less range, and can't attack ground whatsoever. They sure as hell better beat them in a head to head. As the only air combat unit in the game without a way to damage ground, they need to be the best air superiority available.
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I think I speak for most of Terran is I say this:
Numbers and stats are deceiving because Terran goes for all-ins. We go for the all in because we know the lategame is unplayable and requires us to severely outplay our opponents. Because the opponents focus on the macro-game (in which they have the advantage) and cut as many corners as possible to get there as fast as possible (which is the current metagame), all- ins exploit this 'greedyness' and causes Terran to have higher winrates early game. I just want to know how many of those wins are all-in and how many are pressure.
Terrans complain about balance patches because only one side of the problem is tackled at any given time. Terrans versatility and early game are being nerfed consistently. This causes Terran to be even more reliant on all- ins, or die in the lategame.
People don't seem to understand how a beloved 'macro game' is a doomscenario for Terran, and with every balance patch, it just becomes more likely.
I would like to see buffs to thors, tanks, ravens, battlecruisers, lategame banshees, ghosts. Anything to make higher tech Terran armies more powerful. Instead, we keep of protecting P/Z against all- ins by making their scouting easier, give Zerg the best defense against tank pushes (creepspread) for free and in the process kill every single safe expand Terran has by making the primary use of Hellions, denying creepspread and taking map control, away because creep has already been spread.
This is why Terrans are angry. We keep on getting nerfed, and our lategame is terrible weak, so weak, if we get to the collosus/storm phase or the Infestor/Broodlord phase, we have a silly 20% chance (20%!!!!!!!!!!) to win if we are on even grounds with the opponent.
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On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
The main differences in terms of spreading creep now, and after patch, are that you get an earlier short in spreading creep close to your base, and that if you aren't devoting any queens to spreading creep (solely on injects), then obviously having 2 tumors spreading is infinitely better than 0.
What about the quick 2 base pushes Terrans do on occasions? The one meant to hit right before baneling speed and mutas, and rely on creep spread for defense. Doesn't this extra energy affect that quite a bit being so early?
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If blizz keeps in this direction the game will be unplayable for T at a casual level - maybe it's time everybody just packs it in and switches, like blizz seems to want.
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On May 03 2012 15:26 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:24 babysimba wrote:
They should be nerfing hellions' ability to kill creep tumors instead. Either buff the hp of creep tumors so that the whole screen of creep tumors don't die in a scan, or make it such that the creep tumor is still invisible when spreading. I have no damn idea why they make creep tumors visible when spreading anyway. Invisible/visible creep tumor have pretty much no influence on any matchups except hellion openings.. Only hellions, and to a certain extent banshees & voidrays have the ability to stop creep spread without detection. So if they judge hellions' ability to deny creep spread to strong, why not just tackle the problem straight on. They can still kill a screen worth of creep tumors if they scan anyway.
WHAT? ARE YOU SERIOUS!? 4 hellions kill 3, maybe 4 tumors / scan if left unattended. By the way; Hellion openers ARE DESIGNED TO stop creep spread. Would you like full map coverage of creep when reaching hive tech too?
No. I'm not serious. Apparently, all zvp and zvt games that go bio have insane creep spread too.
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They should have included
-Maps
+At the professional level, certain early tactical play can be slightly too strong, so we've decided to put 250-health destructible rocks, at the same size as a supply depot, at the bottom of the ramp. These new destructible rocks will allow units to pass over them, but will not allow buildings to be placed upon them.
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On May 03 2012 15:36 Zelniq wrote:
it's important to note that in the pro scene right now, in zvt, most zergs are devoting 2 queens for a while to spreading creep, which spreads out creep extremely quickly and so the difference in how much creep has spread by the 10 or 12 minute mark isn't very large, when comparing 25 energy queens with the 50.
just look at most korean pro zvt's these days, creep is spread out so well by the midgame/early-midgame.
The thing about tumors is, when spreading creep in 1 general direction, it only takes 4 active tumors to reach the maximum creep spread rate. you cant spread it any faster with more tumors, in that direction. in fact, 4 tumors is only a little faster than 3 which is already pretty quick. So really this 50 energy change wouldn't have that great of an effect in those cases, which is also the cases where creep is most vital for zerg. zvp creep in general is far less necessary/useful than in zvt.
The main differences in terms of spreading creep now, and after patch, are that you get an earlier short in spreading creep close to your base, and that if you aren't devoting any queens to spreading creep (solely on injects), then obviously having 2 tumors spreading is infinitely better than 0.
imo having that extremely fast early creep spread has huge implications in terms of defending early rushes (moving spines forward, lingspeed bonus, more vision). whereas normally you would sacrifice an inject or wait for 3rd/4th queen before starting it.
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Yes. YES.
This is perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Remember guys, at the pro level Zerg struggles SO much that because of these balance changes we would not necessarily see a zerg champion...
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EPT
