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On May 03 2012 15:10 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote:On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:
Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow.
50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane.
The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game.
I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower.
you lose the chance to use the minerals sooner, which is pretty huge
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On May 03 2012 15:06 Ketch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:50 Braric wrote:On May 03 2012 14:47 Chill Penguin wrote:On May 03 2012 14:19 Zaphid wrote:
I don't like the queen energy change, I feel like it makes stargate opening in PvZ almost useless. This post right here is why the queen change can't happen. An extra 3-4 transfusions will end stargate aggression. To be fair any good Zerg player right now can handle Stargate aggression insanely easily as is, this change will just make bad players able to deflect it much easier. And people will like try to get away with less queens... so less queens to worry about and you can pick up all that remain...
But 4 queens don't suddenly become unsustainable. What happens is that the advantages of getting those queens gets larger.
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On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol
they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players
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On May 03 2012 15:10 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote:On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:
Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow.
50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane.
The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game.
I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower.
Blahblahblah. Every drone costs infinity recourses.
Notice the word 'potential', I already thought of nitwicks.
Now, please answer my argument instead of being annoying ^^
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On May 03 2012 15:12 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Dear people saying the queen change is over the top:
Please demonstrate. Show me a game where the zerg having 25 extra energy on their queen has turned the tide of the battle so much that the zerg wins because of it.
It has already been proven that creep spread is not increased
It has already been shown that given the zerg is making extra queens that he is spending that extra energy on creep spreading therefore has no energy for transfuse.
The ONLY scenario this effects is heavy stargate play in which the zerg scouts it (in which case the zerg will already be putting down spores and making queens anyway, negating it 99% of the time, even on the current live version). Even if it is double stargate play, you are lifting the queens with energy negating any transfuses that might have come into play anyway.
The balance that this effects is MINIMAL.
If you think I am wrong, DEMONSTRATE THAT I AM WRONG. No one can demonstrate it until you play a stupid amount of games and that's the point. People can't just play a few games cause whatever the result, someone's gonna yell "Holy shit! you didn't play well at all! so biased!" No one wants to go play 5-6 months worth of games and be like well this was kind of op, let's nerf it. Some people play this for fun. Some people play this for a living. TvZ is fine right now, and OL speed will help a lot. Why even try to mess that up. ibnozergsinGSL
My argument is that the extra energy changes nothing in TvZ, therefore no reason to not include it. It helps 2 base zerg play to actually spread creep, as frequently when you are planning on 2 base play you might want to skip that queen.
I would actually be fine with it off, I just like the idea of not having to make an extra queen in ZvP and ZvT all the time JUST to spread creep or to get creep spread going.
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Honest suggestion, why don't they just buff energy regeneration a little bit so the first tumor goes down earlier? I'm not saying a whole hell of a lot, i don't know the rate, but it could be a middle ground between starting with 50 energy and not getting that transfuse right when they pop. I mean a 4 queen opener would obviously screw air aggression but isn't that the point anyway? Zerg early game defense is in need of a buff and I think they are trying out different things. At least it's going in the right direction.
No flames please >.<
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On May 03 2012 15:05 Enhancer_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:56 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2012 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 13:01 teamhozac wrote:
Please god, no... as if it wasnt already hard enough to push out/suprise attack in tvz, now THIS... jesus christ I dont understand this mentality. Why do terrans feel it is right for them to surprise any race? Why is it that your all-ins are the only ones that should remain unscoutable? EDIT: Creep spreads faster if there are more tumors. If you put down two tumors intially, the creep spreads out faster than if it was just one. So it's not just a cycle ahead, because the creep actually gets OUT faster each time if you're doing two at a time.
You are limited by the creep tumor cooldown. Look at the two screenshots and realize the TRUTH, and not your imagination. How about you realize the "TRUTH" that it's not just the cooldown, and that creep literally SPREADS faster. Like, the actual, physical creep, moves more in less time. It's too good. It spreads to the tumor's radius faster than the cooldown period. The propogation of tumors is still limited by the cooldown. You might get an extra centimeter of creep or something if you spread exactly when the cooldown period expires every cycle. Yay. Learn the actual game mechanic that's involved here before randomly capitalizing words and trying to sound really important.
Did you even read who I was quoting, who used capitalized words? I guess not, so I don't know why you're quoting me. I went into a unit tester map and did it myself with one tumor and two tumors. You can spread creep faster. Don't how know how else to say it.
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On May 03 2012 15:02 Penecks wrote:
Oh man as T every patch just brings more and more pain... zergs with good creep spread are already scary as hell, now they can start it so much earlier, and in multiple directions which is very important. Queen + ovie change would pretty much kill off the remainder of any terran 1 base play, which I'm sure some people would be glad to see, but remember it does limit the options of players, and makes the game much more predictable to play and watch.
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain.
Ummm, well wouldn´t queens coming out with 50 energy would give you emergency transfuses on demand? As in if you see a super early rush coming you emergency build a Queen and you will have 1 transfuse available?
Dunno about the creep but the insta transfuse I think will affect early game
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On May 03 2012 15:15 Varrik wrote:
Honest suggestion, why don't they just buff energy regeneration a little bit so the first tumor goes down earlier? I'm not saying a whole hell of a lot, i don't know the rate, but it could be a middle ground between starting with 50 energy and not getting that transfuse right when they pop. I mean a 4 queen opener would obviously screw air aggression but isn't that the point anyway? Zerg early game defense is in need of a buff and I think they are trying out different things. At least it's going in the right direction.
No flames please >.<
Not a bad idea, I believe you get slightly more then 25 energy in the time between when you inject, and when you can inject again.
This build-up of energy used to measure how good a player was at macro, but if you buff the energy regen you could make zergs not have to skip an inject if they delay the creep spread a bit.
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On May 03 2012 15:14 Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:10 Corrosive wrote:On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote:On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote:On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote:
Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow.
50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane.
The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game.
I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower. Blahblahblah. Every drone costs infinity recourses. Notice the word 'potential', I already thought of nitwicks. Now, please answer my argument instead of being annoying ^^
Wow, what league are you?
If you mule instead of scanning you have an extra 300 minerals to use. That is an extra 6 marines. That is a lot early on, or with multiple mules it becomes 12 / 18 etc etc..
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On May 03 2012 15:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:12 Chaggi wrote:On May 03 2012 15:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Dear people saying the queen change is over the top:
Please demonstrate. Show me a game where the zerg having 25 extra energy on their queen has turned the tide of the battle so much that the zerg wins because of it.
It has already been proven that creep spread is not increased
It has already been shown that given the zerg is making extra queens that he is spending that extra energy on creep spreading therefore has no energy for transfuse.
The ONLY scenario this effects is heavy stargate play in which the zerg scouts it (in which case the zerg will already be putting down spores and making queens anyway, negating it 99% of the time, even on the current live version). Even if it is double stargate play, you are lifting the queens with energy negating any transfuses that might have come into play anyway.
The balance that this effects is MINIMAL.
If you think I am wrong, DEMONSTRATE THAT I AM WRONG. No one can demonstrate it until you play a stupid amount of games and that's the point. People can't just play a few games cause whatever the result, someone's gonna yell "Holy shit! you didn't play well at all! so biased!" No one wants to go play 5-6 months worth of games and be like well this was kind of op, let's nerf it. Some people play this for fun. Some people play this for a living. TvZ is fine right now, and OL speed will help a lot. Why even try to mess that up. ibnozergsinGSL My argument is that the extra energy changes nothing in TvZ, therefore no reason to not include it. It helps 2 base zerg play to actually spread creep, as frequently when you are planning on 2 base play you might want to skip that queen. I would actually be fine with it off, I just like the idea of not having to make an extra queen in ZvP and ZvT all the time JUST to spread creep or to get creep spread going.
my argument is that it has the potential to change a lot, why the hell not just leave it the same. Zergs aren't have problems spreading creep, why even buff it and possibly have something spiral out of control.
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On May 03 2012 15:15 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:02 Penecks wrote:
Oh man as T every patch just brings more and more pain... zergs with good creep spread are already scary as hell, now they can start it so much earlier, and in multiple directions which is very important. Queen + ovie change would pretty much kill off the remainder of any terran 1 base play, which I'm sure some people would be glad to see, but remember it does limit the options of players, and makes the game much more predictable to play and watch.
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain. Ummm, well wouldn´t queens coming out with 50 energy would give you emergency transfuses on demand? As in if you see a super early rush coming you emergency build a Queen and you will have 1 transfuse available? Dunno about the creep but the insta transfuse I think will affect early game
I'm not so sure 150 minerals is worth it just for a transfuse "on demand" ... why not spend the 100 and get another spine crawler? same build time.
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On May 03 2012 14:47 Chill Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:19 Zaphid wrote:
I don't like the queen energy change, I feel like it makes stargate opening in PvZ almost useless. This post right here is why the queen change can't happen. An extra 3-4 transfusions will end stargate aggression.
lol, stargate aggression would end regardless if u have that many queens out in the first place regardless of the energy... its not that hard to hold it off IF u are prepared for it, especially if this overlord change goes through which will make it easier to scout.
i think the change is fine myself, zerg has some a few issues early game and this will help deal with it. the creep spread and energy change will help alot with the fact that zerg has no early game anti air units, making queens much more viable for defense against banshees/voids/nixes.
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On May 03 2012 15:15 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:05 Enhancer_ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:56 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2012 13:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 13:01 teamhozac wrote:
Please god, no... as if it wasnt already hard enough to push out/suprise attack in tvz, now THIS... jesus christ I dont understand this mentality. Why do terrans feel it is right for them to surprise any race? Why is it that your all-ins are the only ones that should remain unscoutable? EDIT: Creep spreads faster if there are more tumors. If you put down two tumors intially, the creep spreads out faster than if it was just one. So it's not just a cycle ahead, because the creep actually gets OUT faster each time if you're doing two at a time.
You are limited by the creep tumor cooldown. Look at the two screenshots and realize the TRUTH, and not your imagination. How about you realize the "TRUTH" that it's not just the cooldown, and that creep literally SPREADS faster. Like, the actual, physical creep, moves more in less time. It's too good. It spreads to the tumor's radius faster than the cooldown period. The propogation of tumors is still limited by the cooldown. You might get an extra centimeter of creep or something if you spread exactly when the cooldown period expires every cycle. Yay. Learn the actual game mechanic that's involved here before randomly capitalizing words and trying to sound really important. Did you even read who I was quoting, who used capitalized words? I guess not, so I don't know why you're quoting me. I went into a unit tester map and did it myself with one tumor and two tumors. You can spread creep faster. Don't how know how else to say it.
So did the guy you quoted, and he provided screenshots. Where are yours? A unit test map is also not the same thing as an actual map anyways.
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The overlord change is a good and needed buff for zerg scouting.
The energy increase from 25 to 50 is incredibly dumb, it makes stargate openings useless and even easier to hold without being able to take damage although that was already easy for any decent zerg. Also having the ability to instantly spread creep without sacrificing an inject is stupid - any "good" zerg can have creep half way across the map by 12 minutes and makes helion openers even worse as their main job is to deny any extra bases and creep. Calculated terran builds require you to drop specific number of mules to execute properly, but wont be able to do this now as more energy is going to have to be wasted on scans instead of dropping mules.
The observer change is incredibly stupid, a protoss can already get out an observer insanely fast with the use of chronoboost and an already existing robo in response to cloak banshee and decreasing the build time makes them even worse as it denies around 5-6 worker kills. If a protoss doesn't have a observer out fast enough to deal with a banshee they can only blame themselves for not having a observer out quickly enough.
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Yes, I did not switch races before but it seems Blizz has a vendetta on terran. I believe the changes are ridiculous especially queens energy and observer. We tend to see late game tvz where the whole map is covered with creep anyway. We see late game tvp where the whole map is covered with obs. We know that zerg on two bases has sufficient defense vs terran in tvz, like the possibility to make the fastest unit in the game in huge amount, roach or two fully stop hellion aggression and queens are very meaty and can deal with a lot themselves.
If something it is that the terran has no viable early aggression opportunities against a zerg. Blizzard just really really want to get rid of all casual terran players, which they almost succeeded with the last couple of patches. Already terrans are 25% less than the zerg or toss players and after this patch they will become even less.
I totally oppose these changes and believe Blizzard can not do its job properly. Also from the moment the patch is out I will seize playing and participating in any sc related activity. Cheers.
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On May 03 2012 15:13 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:11 _Darwin_ wrote:
i dont get why they said protoss is struggling at top pro level? they are 5/8 in gsl ro8 lol they were lucky terrans took out the zerg players
In RO32 matches of Code S
Zerg went 1-6 against protoss (matches). Nestea beat inca. Thats the only match win in the RO32 for zerg against protoss.
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better make spine crawlers immobile and have a splash damage. observer and overlord changes is good.
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On May 03 2012 15:15 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:02 Penecks wrote:
Oh man as T every patch just brings more and more pain... zergs with good creep spread are already scary as hell, now they can start it so much earlier, and in multiple directions which is very important. Queen + ovie change would pretty much kill off the remainder of any terran 1 base play, which I'm sure some people would be glad to see, but remember it does limit the options of players, and makes the game much more predictable to play and watch.
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain. Ummm, well wouldn´t queens coming out with 50 energy would give you emergency transfuses on demand? As in if you see a super early rush coming you emergency build a Queen and you will have 1 transfuse available? Dunno about the creep but the insta transfuse I think will affect early game
Maybe our definitions of early bunker/scv rush rushes are different: you don't see it coming and think "oh cool, I'll just make a queen and I'll be fine", it's more like "oh the queen at my natural isn't even finished and there are already 2 bunkers being built there."
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On May 03 2012 15:18 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:15 windsupernova wrote:On May 03 2012 15:02 Penecks wrote:
Oh man as T every patch just brings more and more pain... zergs with good creep spread are already scary as hell, now they can start it so much earlier, and in multiple directions which is very important. Queen + ovie change would pretty much kill off the remainder of any terran 1 base play, which I'm sure some people would be glad to see, but remember it does limit the options of players, and makes the game much more predictable to play and watch.
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain. Ummm, well wouldn´t queens coming out with 50 energy would give you emergency transfuses on demand? As in if you see a super early rush coming you emergency build a Queen and you will have 1 transfuse available? Dunno about the creep but the insta transfuse I think will affect early game I'm not so sure 150 minerals is worth it just for a transfuse "on demand" ... why not spend the 100 and get another spine crawler? same build time.
While the queen may be a little less powerful in a push, it's a lot stronger from an extended game pov.
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EPT
