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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On May 03 2012 14:47 Chill Penguin wrote: This post right here is why the queen change can't happen. An extra 3-4 transfusions will end stargate aggression. Yep. They would have to redo protoss air again. I can see how terrans don't like nerfing of hellion openers. 30 energy on spawn? | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
YOu said it well - ALL INS!!!! TERRAN ALL INS BECAUSE LATEGAME IS A SHITFEST. There's no early game balance in that other than Protoss not being good enough at scouting the all in, or, more often, BEING TO GREEDY. Protoss can kill terran EASILLY after warpgates. Stop being so ignorant, play the other race for once and see. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On May 03 2012 14:48 Raid wrote: Hey guys, look on the brightside at least there are no terran nerfs amirite? inb4 next patch User was warned for this post | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
I had a similiar idea actually some time ago, but mine was that a new hatchery can spawn a single creep tumor, this way it will be mostly an early game creep spreading help, while openers like gasless 4 queen don't get buffed so much. | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
At the same time it does little to deter the proxy rax/bunker rush/scv-marine allin type of play you occasionally see, as the overlord scout won't really come into effect, and queens will likely not have excess transfuse energy anyway due to crucial early game injects and tumors. So the "later" allins which are pretty much non-existant anyway are killed off, while the cheesy super-early game rushes remain. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:08 SolidMoose wrote: Faster overlord speed might work, but I feel like because zerg has the easiest time tech switching, easier scouting means they can more easily shift their whole build to counter what T and P do. I always thought that's one reason why overlords had to be so slow. 50 energy I just can't agree with. The creep spread will just be insane. The observer buff seems out of the blue (has anyone ever complained about the build time?). I don't think protoss needs better scouting, or really anything at all at this point in the game. I'm always bothered when they introduce buffs/nerfs completely unrelated to the things people talk about. How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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Enhancer_
Canada320 Posts
On May 03 2012 14:56 SolidMoose wrote: How about you realize the "TRUTH" that it's not just the cooldown, and that creep literally SPREADS faster. Like, the actual, physical creep, moves more in less time. It's too good. It spreads to the tumor's radius faster than the cooldown period. The propogation of tumors is still limited by the cooldown. You might get an extra centimeter of creep or something if you spread exactly when the cooldown period expires every cycle. Yay. Learn the actual game mechanic that's involved here before randomly capitalizing words and trying to sound really important. | ||
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Goliath0nline
Canada165 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On May 03 2012 13:55 Resistentialism wrote: Spines have two armour on their entire hp pool compared to 1 armour on half hp for a cannon. This is a big deal against worker attacks, but also very important for the kind of defense zergs already use versus marines, hellions and zerglings, And they don't need a pylon. It's probably not that silly of an issue. buildings dont have armor while they are constructing afaik. also yes i talked to david kim and that is the only issue he mentioned at the time, so it is that silly of an issue. On May 03 2012 13:39 WolfintheSheep wrote: Cannons don't have Zealots defending them. No one Spine Crawler rushes. They 6/7 pool and build a Crawler for additional offence. obviously im very aware of this, and have plenty of experience with every early pool scenario. My point was just that if spines built 10 seconds faster, as long as you can still easily kill it with the same number of workers attacking it, it shouldn't really change the outcome. if you lose with the 10 second shorter build time you were probably going to lose anyway even if it was 10 seconds longer, or you made a mistake in your control or decision making. basically my point is that i dont think the 10 second build time will actually change the outcome of zvz early pool games. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:03 Nasreth wrote: How is a slightly faster overlord going to significantly change my ability to shift my entire game to counter what my opponent is doing? You either overlord scout or you don't, in both ZvT and in ZvP. The problem has been that, for people who DO choose to overlord scout, we often lose our overlord to a single marine or 2, or a sentry, before we see anything important due to how slow the overlord is. Overlord scouting is a tactical decision, and we deserve to glean at least some information from it since we are sacrificing 100 minerals, a larvae, and 8 supply. You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? | ||
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Ketch
Netherlands7285 Posts
On May 03 2012 14:50 Braric wrote: To be fair any good Zerg player right now can handle Stargate aggression insanely easily as is, this change will just make bad players able to deflect it much easier. And people will like try to get away with less queens... so less queens to worry about and you can pick up all that remain... | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:45 latan wrote: well then i guess then opponents will have to work a little harder to deny creep spread, which isn't even difficult anyway, or a big deal, i think. the observer change will help a bit as well. ........ Denying creep spread is fucking hard as fuck wtf Unless you make >6 hellions, hellions can not deny creep spread vs a zerg that is commited to spreading it -- Having the creep already be further out is gonna make it insanely hard. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Please demonstrate. Show me a game where the zerg having 25 extra energy on their queen has turned the tide of the battle so much that the zerg wins because of it. It has already been proven that creep spread is not increased It has already been shown that given the zerg is making extra queens that he is spending that extra energy on creep spreading therefore has no energy for transfuse. The ONLY scenario this effects is heavy stargate play in which the zerg scouts it (in which case the zerg will already be putting down spores and making queens anyway, negating it 99% of the time, even on the current live version). Even if it is double stargate play, you are lifting the queens with energy negating any transfuses that might have come into play anyway. The balance that this effects is MINIMAL. If you think I am wrong, DEMONSTRATE THAT I AM WRONG. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:06 Toastie wrote: You mean, kinda like, how my Scan might not reveal everything? I want my scan to be movable, because if I spend 300 potential minerals, I deserve to at least glean at some information, even if my opponent spreads his shit out. See the flawed logic? You don't lose minerals by using a scan. You just get them slower. | ||
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_Darwin_
United States2374 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On May 03 2012 14:54 USvBleakill wrote:The Observer change makes me very angry. Srsly it´s like the Upgrade changes Blizzard is saying "well some koreans build more than one observer and have great success with it (i think Parting was it who have 6 - 8 Observers at the same time). But the average Protoss is just too stupid to build more than one so we have to buff them". I don´t see any reason for this and it´s a hidden terran nurf (again!) because cloak banshee will get weaker (and dt´s too). It's more likely in response to games like Maru vs MC Game 1 in the latest GSL, Maru does a 1 rax expand build and makes it look like cloaked banshee at the front, MC is basically forced to make a robo and 2 observers just to play safe and still doesn't actually get to scout the base until nearly 8:30. That seems like a pretty specific example, but it's just a general blind spot protoss seems to have between their first zealot/stalker poke and the observer hitting the base that needs to account for 2 wildly different builds. Part of the reason this is now becoming a problem is because Terrans are just taking the economic hit by beginning their 2nd depot before the scout can get in, even off a pylon scout on a 2 player map, and forcing the robo + observers ends up costing the protoss a lot more than it cost the terran to put the depot down, as it lets the terran player also cut a few corners in the mid game (things like 6-7 gates are weaker, gateway + immortal pushes arent as effective on long maps) | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On May 03 2012 15:09 TheRabidDeer wrote: Dear people saying the queen change is over the top: Please demonstrate. Show me a game where the zerg having 25 extra energy on their queen has turned the tide of the battle so much that the zerg wins because of it. It has already been proven that creep spread is not increased It has already been shown that given the zerg is making extra queens that he is spending that extra energy on creep spreading therefore has no energy for transfuse. The ONLY scenario this effects is heavy stargate play in which the zerg scouts it (in which case the zerg will already be putting down spores and making queens anyway, negating it 99% of the time, even on the current live version). Even if it is double stargate play, you are lifting the queens with energy negating any transfuses that might have come into play anyway. The balance that this effects is MINIMAL. If you think I am wrong, DEMONSTRATE THAT I AM WRONG. No one can demonstrate it until you play a stupid amount of games and that's the point. People can't just play a few games cause whatever the result, someone's gonna yell "Holy shit! you didn't play well at all! so biased!" No one wants to go play 5-6 months worth of games and be like well this was kind of op, let's nerf it. Some people play this for fun. Some people play this for a living. TvZ is fine right now, and OL speed will help a lot. Why even try to mess that up. ibnozergsinGSL | ||
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