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On May 03 2012 14:32 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Oh here goes the myth that "Terran is imbalanced early/mid game PvT". Please show me the imbalances in the match up at these times where it makes the matchup INCREDIBLY difficult for Protoss? Please don't say being able to put on pressure so that Terran can secure a 3rd......thats not imbalance.
Its especially funny when you think about the quick 3 nexus parting build. The protoss takes a quick 3rd, gets ahead in econ, and puts on pressure with mass gates forcing the terran to remain bunkered up on 2 base.. Protoss is not that weak early or mid, terran is not that strong early or mid.
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On May 03 2012 14:34 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:30 ][Primarch][ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Then Protoss players would be lying to themselves cause Protoss are super-strong during every phase of the game, though getting extremely imbalanced in the late-game. Protoss have the most ridiculous one base and two base timings in the game. Huh? This guy must be a troll. Almost everyone agrees that in PvT Terran is favored early/mid game and Protoss is favored late game. Also.... LOL !!!! At your comment about timings. You seriously talking about timings in PvT ? Terran has the most timings and builds it is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? T has like 2, maybe 3 viable openings. P has about 10 different allins they can do, as well as massive choice for macro openings.
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The April stats show that Terran has the lowest win rates this month and yet the changes they are looking at are, yet again, Zerg and Protoss buffs. And these changes are actually way too much. Try playing a TvZ on Ohana if these changes go through, if there Terran tries to play a macro game creep will be at his base when he tries to push. Creep was already too easy to spread, Thorzain has said that creep is the scariest thing to a Terran and its true. Not to mention any kinda of air openings are shut down, there's no argueing it, starting with a transfuse, stargate play will no longer exist. Secondly the shortened observer build time has massive implications. 10 seconds is pretty huge, now Protoss immortals allins are going to come that much quicker, and 10 seconds can make a bug difference to an all in like that, especially when said all in is already extremely hard to hold. You can have 5 bunkers and still get busted.
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On May 03 2012 14:27 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:24 Sbrubbles wrote:
I play Zerg and frankly think the queen change is too much. A solution that I find as much more reasonable is for hatches to get to make a single creep tumor 3 minutes after the game starts (for the main hatch) and 1 minutes after they are built (for subsequent hatches).
Also, energy being anywhere between 25 and 50 makes no sense from any perspective. Either change it to 50 or not at all.
Edit: then again, ZvZ with a much earlier transfuse would be heaven (for those of us that like to open hatch first anyway). Lol, I find your proposition much more gimmicky than an energy value between 25 and 50 :D
My proposition may be gimmicky, but I'm not saying energy between 25 and 50 is gimmicky. I'm just saying it makes no sense because it doesn't fit into the multiples-of-25 zerg macro usage. If you're just using injects it makes no difference whatsoever and if you cut 1 inject to make a tumor, it would come only a few seconds earlier (negligible).
The idea behind queen with 50 energy is an instant tumor without affecting injects. So either leave it at 25 or change it to 50, not anywhere in between.
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I don't get the creep buff. Don't you have like, about 6-8 tumors now BEFORE HELLIONS, if you get 2 queens??? That means the area covered is enough to get out of the ramp.
Is this an indirect nerf to all openers with hellions, because the map- control aspect is lost?!
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On May 03 2012 14:36 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:34 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:30 ][Primarch][ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Then Protoss players would be lying to themselves cause Protoss are super-strong during every phase of the game, though getting extremely imbalanced in the late-game. Protoss have the most ridiculous one base and two base timings in the game. Huh? This guy must be a troll. Almost everyone agrees that in PvT Terran is favored early/mid game and Protoss is favored late game. Also.... LOL !!!! At your comment about timings. You seriously talking about timings in PvT ? Terran has the most timings and builds it is ridiculous. What are you talking about? T has like 2, maybe 3 viable openings. P has about 10 different allins they can do, as well as massive choice for macro openings.
Please list the 10 and then I will list 4 viable terran openings (that are hard to scout).
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Time for a dose of reality. Terrans on a broad scale have no fucking idea what they are talking about. We've heard this endless bitching since late 2011 and it was only april 2012 that for the first time EVER IN THE HISTORY OF SC2 that Zerg was better than Terran BY ANY METRIC AVAILABLE.
The reason Terrans are bitching so much is because they feel entitled to an absurd range of all ins because that's what they've had for so long. This is the race that took 9 months of Zergs telling them to make ghosts against against broodlord infestor before they even fucking tried, the race that didn't realize until mid 2011 that hellions were really fucking good.
News flash for you guys, against a two queen 2 base opener this will mean 2 more active creep tumors on the map, that's all. If you start spreading creep one cycle earlier than you would have creep spread will only be one cycle further out, about a third of screen distance. It's fucking shameful that you have pro level Terrans posting screen shots of themselves spreading creep on the test map unopposed and posting it like it means anything when it's barely distinguishable from someone spreading creep as it is now unopposed.
What would this change really mean? It means you would get a transfuse for a spine during a bunker rush if you scouted it and had the foresight to put up a spine and had the lings to defend it. It means you'd have an extra transfuse IF you built a third queen and spotted banshee play BEFORE you put down any creep tumors. It means you can reliably connect your bases with creep and spread creep to connect to your third one or two tumor cycles earlier. How much offensive capability does it give the Zerg? Fuck all. How much economic benefit does it give the Zerg? Fuck all.
For creep spread it means that you can push out your creep one cycle further out at any given time. Take your thumb and forefinger, spread them as far apart as you can, then put them up against the screen, that's the how much further out creep spread is going to be. In the early game it's significant, in the late game it does nothing.
What's funny is that this affects protoss so much worse because 2 stargate play is massively nerfed and the Zerg only needs to queens and a couple spores to hold off voidray phoenix and can also reliably hold off 4+ zealots with mass queen combined with the third being connected in time Zerg can go 3 base gasless for even longer against a FFE. But somehow the Terran bitching is crowding out the protoss complaints. So sorry that it will be a little easier to hold off all ins that were already hard as fuck to hold off when you DO scout them. Get some freaking perspective.
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On May 03 2012 14:32 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Oh here goes the myth that "Terran is imbalanced early/mid game PvT". Please show me the imbalances in the match up at these times where it makes the matchup INCREDIBLY difficult for Protoss? Please don't say being able to put on pressure so that Terran can secure a 3rd......thats not imbalance.
I'll say it once. Look up the stats yoursellf. They have been posted multiple times. Terran usually wins in PvT within the first 16 mins, if the game goes beyond that Protoss usually wins. Statistics show that Terrans win something like 70% of games that go 16mins long and Protoss win like 75% of games that go later than that in PvT. Only conclusion you can draw from that is that Terran is favored early/mid game and Protoss is favored late game.
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Make transfuse 75 energy. Just as strong early/midgame, and takes the ludicrously strong zerg ultra-lategame (ultra as in ultimate, not as in ultralisk lol) a notch with only 2 transfuse per queen at a time. Pow! Two problems solved.
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Canada16217 Posts
Overload change and observer build time change are both good, the extra queen energy is too much IMO
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On May 03 2012 14:34 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:30 ][Primarch][ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Then Protoss players would be lying to themselves cause Protoss are super-strong during every phase of the game, though getting extremely imbalanced in the late-game. Protoss have the most ridiculous one base and two base timings in the game. Huh? This guy must be a troll. Almost everyone agrees that in PvT Terran is favored early/mid game and Protoss is favored late game. Also.... LOL !!!! At your comment about timings. You seriously talking about timings in PvT ? Terran has the most timings and builds it is ridiculous.
well LOL !!! The anti-troll appearead! claiming TvP is favored for terran, if T is stonger in early-mid game why don't they just win then?
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On May 03 2012 14:35 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:32 shockaslim wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Oh here goes the myth that "Terran is imbalanced early/mid game PvT". Please show me the imbalances in the match up at these times where it makes the matchup INCREDIBLY difficult for Protoss? Please don't say being able to put on pressure so that Terran can secure a 3rd......thats not imbalance. Its especially funny when you think about the quick 3 nexus parting build. The protoss takes a quick 3rd, gets ahead in econ, and puts on pressure with mass gates forcing the terran to remain bunkered up on 2 base.. Protoss is not that weak early or mid, terran is not that strong early or mid.
If you even look at his replays you would know he is extremely vulnureable when he gets that 3rd nexus up because he is also getting his 8-10 gates up at the same time. Try pressuring, works wonders.
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Observer and Overlord changes are great - but the queen change is mental... I can imagine complete new build orders around only getting one queen and pumping 8 units out quickly.
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On May 03 2012 14:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:35 Jono7272 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:32 shockaslim wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Oh here goes the myth that "Terran is imbalanced early/mid game PvT". Please show me the imbalances in the match up at these times where it makes the matchup INCREDIBLY difficult for Protoss? Please don't say being able to put on pressure so that Terran can secure a 3rd......thats not imbalance. Its especially funny when you think about the quick 3 nexus parting build. The protoss takes a quick 3rd, gets ahead in econ, and puts on pressure with mass gates forcing the terran to remain bunkered up on 2 base.. Protoss is not that weak early or mid, terran is not that strong early or mid. If you even look at his replays you would know he is extremely vulnureable when he gets that 3rd nexus up because he is also getting his 8-10 gates up at the same time. Try pressuring, works wonders.
By the time you find out(if you somehow scout it), you hit them with a few marines without stim or medivac support and his gates finish and your units die. Terran is not safe to move out unti medivacs are out. There isn't a good timing.
edit: maybe a blind 5 rax would hit a good timing, but forcefields are pretty good.
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On May 03 2012 14:38 Ziggitz wrote:
Time for a dose of reality. Terrans on a broad scale have no fucking idea what they are talking about. We've heard this endless bitching since late 2011 and it was only april 2012 that for the first time EVER IN THE HISTORY OF SC2 that Zerg was better than Terran BY ANY METRIC AVAILABLE.
The reason Terrans are bitching so much is because they feel entitled to an absurd range of all ins because that's what they've had for so long. This is the race that took 9 months of Zergs telling them to make ghosts against against broodlord infestor before they even fucking tried, the race that didn't realize until mid 2011 that hellions were really fucking good.
News flash for you guys, against a two queen 2 base opener this will mean 2 more active creep tumors on the map, that's all. If you start spreading creep one cycle earlier than you would have creep spread will only be one cycle further out, about a third of screen distance. It's fucking shameful that you have pro level Terrans posting screen shots of themselves spreading creep on the test map unopposed and posting it like it means anything when it's barely distinguishable from someone spreading creep as it is now unopposed.
What would this change really mean? It means you would get a transfuse for a spine during a bunker rush if you scouted it and had the foresight to put up a spine and had the lings to defend it. It means you'd have an extra transfuse IF you built a third queen and spotted banshee play BEFORE you put down any creep tumors. It means you can reliably connect your bases with creep and spread creep to connect to your third one or two tumor cycles earlier. How much offensive capability does it give the Zerg? Fuck all. How much economic benefit does it give the Zerg? Fuck all.
For creep spread it means that you can push out your creep one cycle further out at any given time. Take your thumb and forefinger, spread them as far apart as you can, then put them up against the screen, that's the how much further out creep spread is going to be. In the early game it's significant, in the late game it does nothing.
What's funny is that this affects protoss so much worse because 2 stargate play is massively nerfed and the Zerg only needs to queens and a couple spores to hold off voidray phoenix and can also reliably hold off 4+ zealots with mass queen combined with the third being connected in time Zerg can go 3 base gasless for even longer against a FFE. But somehow the Terran bitching is crowding out the protoss complaints. So sorry that it will be a little easier to hold off all ins that were already hard as fuck to hold off when you DO scout them. Get some freaking perspective.
Don´t quit your dayjob for Statcraft Coaching please
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On May 03 2012 14:40 ][Primarch][ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:34 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:30 ][Primarch][ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ? Then Protoss players would be lying to themselves cause Protoss are super-strong during every phase of the game, though getting extremely imbalanced in the late-game. Protoss have the most ridiculous one base and two base timings in the game. Huh? This guy must be a troll. Almost everyone agrees that in PvT Terran is favored early/mid game and Protoss is favored late game. Also.... LOL !!!! At your comment about timings. You seriously talking about timings in PvT ? Terran has the most timings and builds it is ridiculous. well LOL !!! The anti-troll appearead! claiming TvP is favored for terran, if T is stonger in early-mid game why don't they just win then?
If you don't know than I can only assume you are a low level player. Some Terrans actually try playing late game, because some games do get to late game if cheese happens early in game and they both decide to macro for example. They train in order to anticipate such things. Later.
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Testing this on one map... and then using those statistics to determine how the game is balanced... YUP sure sounds like Blizzard to me!
Actually I'm okay with it since I play Zerg, and Antiga is pretty rough ZvP.
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On May 03 2012 14:40 ][Primarch][ wrote:
well LOL !!! The anti-troll appearead! claiming TvP is favored for terran, if T is stonger in early-mid game why don't they just win then?
They do "just win". The numbers still show higher win percentages for Terran in short games, and overall winrates have only evened out recently as players became more experienced at identifying and defending against early all-ins.
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The extra energy on Queens is ridiculous. Now you will never kill a queen with some early pressure from a few units. They will have even a better vision outside their base and see pushes coming earlier. Starting with one tranfuse means Protoss can'
t do shit with air which completely kills the most useless air in the game - the Protoss one.
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On May 03 2012 14:18 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:09 ContrailNZ wrote:On May 03 2012 14:07 xrapture wrote:
won't this make the 200/200 max roach stephano style hit even faster?
forgo 2nd queen for 3 more drones, use 2nd queen to inject 2nd and 3rd base.
i don't think that style needed a buff... The funny thing is that 2 base protoss all in still don't hit fast enough to counter Stephano's current 3 base mass roach timing. Imagine when he can get drones or units a little sooner and not have to worry about protoss air. Zerg only loss to Protoss if they get in horrible positioning fights or if they get caught off gaurd over droning vs an allin. Hero vs Leenock MC vs Nestea Basically every zerg eliminated by a protoss this season, would like a word with you about protoss not being able to beat it. Just because you cant beat it, doesnt mean it cant be beaten.
I play terran and not a lot. I just watch a lot of pro gaming matches.
Game 1 MC beat Nestea because he did a risky one base mass stalker all in and Nestea was caught offgaurd / over droned.
Game 2 Nestea tried a highly risky Hydra all in and had a build order loss as MC had gone early collosus.
Game 1 Hero beat Leenock because Hero went for a timing attack and abused the map ramp which can be blocked with 1 forcefield.
Game 2 Hero lost to Leenock because he tried to take a 3rd and play a macro game vs mass roach / ling.
Game 3 Leenock still would have won with Broodlords, but he managed to get lose his greater spire and then shortly after before he had rebuild it he let all of his infesters get vortexed then insta gibbed while he lost all his naked Broodlords vs blink stalker = owned. Biggest mistake ever. Then as Leenock still had no greater spire he switched to Ultralisks which suck = gg.
So basically Zerg lost every game to highly risky 1 off attacks that will basically never work / work on most maps. The only legit mass roach / ling game Zerg won and Leenock only lost game 3 due to massive mistakes / being caught offgaurd..
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EPT
