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On May 03 2012 17:23 Grend wrote:
What I do not get is how everyone makes it so that it will change creep spread so dramatically. It makes you able to larvae and creep simultaneously with your first 2 queens ish, but that is about it. You get one extra larvae inject or a creep tumor?
It is kind of powerful spawning with a transfuse too though, especially versus banshees and void rays.
OLspeed just seems so natural, why didn't this come sooner? They are ridiculously slow.
The OL speed increase on paper seems minuscule. We have to see ingame if this will mean anything.
As for queen change, terran early game aggression is too strong in pro games so that is why they are changing this. They left this alone for 6 months or more (the last bunker/barracks/helion nerf) and things have not changed much for anyone but DRG and maybe Stephano.
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On May 03 2012 17:15 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:06 Ziggitz wrote:
This thread makes me lose faith in humanity. The 25 energy bonus is completely negligible in the lategame but everyone is still spouting the same bullshit they were 25 pages ago about it breaking lategame with hive tech. It was shown hours ago that the creep spread in the midgame compared from now to what the changes would do is unrecognizable because having more creep tumors does not increase the speed creep spreads in any one direction yet still people are bitching about it. I don't know why I come to TL anymore. You should probably test out the creep spread potential on the custom map before you spout bullshit. Terran and Protoss both rely heavily on Zerg having the spread that makes sense in the current metagame, and if you don't think it's vastly different post-change, you simply haven't played the test map. It's fucking stupid, try it out for yourself.
No need to test it, many players have done that and actually posted their results here.
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I’m deeply sorry if someone already mention this point, but I didn’t read all the posts.
OV speed his something that should just come naturally, and not only for the reason of being able to scout anything inside a base (and I’m not just talking early game, even mid game, Vs Terran only with an overseer I would be able to see anything), but because there are some maps on the ladder that now are so big (finally) that we simply cannot put an OV on the other side of the map without it being intercepted by a marine and killed! For example: Cloud Kingdom; daybreak; Korhal Compound (maps were we need to make a detour by the sides of the map, were a decent terran just moves one or two marines to intercept and kill).
But starting 50 energy on queen? Don’t really get the point… I mean I get the point, but it comes to late (even against the hellions vs terran, they just need to spend one scan and there goes all the creep tumors), what we need is one early creep tumor so we can stop the stupid cannons rushes on natural, the dual or triple bunker rushes on natural, the closing the ramp to the natural! Give us one early creep tumor when the game starts!!!
For example one already put on the creep at the far back of base (related to the entrance of the ramp to the natural) or the hatchery has the power to generate one single creep tumor, later than this we don’t have time to spread the creep to forbid that type of all ins right on top of the natural.
Terran wants to go bunker rush, he can still do so, but not on top of natural but behind a bit, and they micro the marines in and out of the bunker to get kills. The Protoss want to cannon rush the natural, there is no doubts, no more, ok I put one or two plyons on this funny spot were the zerg needs to pull 4 to 6 drones to destroy it and then I way or may not make a cannon, depending if he kills it… no! Now is, “Oh damn, creep coming, I need to build the pylon and the cannon right now or I will not be able to put it down!”
Just my 2 cents!
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On May 03 2012 17:17 Flummie wrote:Solution is rather simple; spawn queens with 50 energy but increase the cost of transfuse 
This makes sense. It would make air units by Protoss still useable early game.
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On May 03 2012 10:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Obs change is nice, but I'd actually like it if they shortened hallucination instead. So you can scout with it early enough to not be forced into robo. Besides we still don't see hallucination used that much. Another side affect of changing the obs build time is now those immortals or colossus can be out 10 seconds sooner in builds that have the obs 1st.
I feel the same. Obs already are the perfect scouting unit (cloaked, detection, with great sight range) making it very worthwhile to spend robo time to get it. On the other hand hallucination is only useful when protoss have sentries, which is in the early mid game. I would like to see it used more at that stage, and reducing the research time seems like a good way to do so.
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Disclaimer: Protoss fan.
1st - Really like the concept of "live testing" using a map revision. Very good idea. Able to geet more feedback than PTR in a faster period of time.
Overseer speed: Like it. Seems like the right idea and the right amount.
Queen Energy: Mixed Feelings: More energy seems ok, but 50 is probably too much. 35 makes a good decision/tradeoff.
Observer Build Speed: Don't like it. Yes observers tie up the Robo, but that makes the unit valuable to keep alive and another decision/tradeoff to be made about robo-use. If the observer becomes even more "throw away" doesn't that also de-value observer speed upgrade? Don't implement this change. Protoss is in a good place now. They don't need anything till HotS.
EDIT: Also agree that Hallucination is an underutilized option already available. Another reason not to mess with observers.
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I like the overlord speed change but nothing else. An increase is queen energy to 50 is ridiculous, there should be a trade off between injecting or creep spreading with a new queen. Observer build time decrease is totally unnecessary, they already have the best scouting in the game why make it even better.
Guy above me is so smart, everything he says I agree.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes 40 seconds for a Queen to produce 25 energy, and it takes 15 seconds for a tumor to be available for spreading a new one. So this change would mean 4-6 more creep tumors (from 2 queens) in the early game while keeping injects up? Seems like a big deal to me.
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On May 03 2012 17:32 ContrailNZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:17 Flummie wrote:Solution is rather simple; spawn queens with 50 energy but increase the cost of transfuse This makes sense. It would make air units by Protoss still useable early game.
In that case I suggest giving spores +1 range
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These changes would be amazing! Right now there are alot of bad players who befinit from the fact that they are unable to inject in a timly manner so essentially they get a "free creep tumor" that makes up for the fact that they are playing bad. With more starting energy this wouldn't so much be the case.
And queens are usually the only form of antiair together with static defense and their damage output is pathetic so this could help very slightly in that regard. It would help against all these annoying 2 base banshee into completely safe 3 base Terran when I sometimes can't even get a third of because of them forcing me to go mutas which I rarely want, especially if it's banshee into mech. In theory, none should ever lose any air units to queens. If they do then they messed up badly.
Overlord and observer change are nice. I like chances that gives more knowledge to good players, and it's small changes so it's not gonna change the dynamic of the game too much.
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On May 03 2012 08:51 Kambing wrote:
- We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Obvious solution is to make the build time for spine crawlers 40 seconds like any other defensive structure, not to mess with queen energy.
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I had an idea for this kind of thing aaaages ago :c But i couldn't implement it because I was too much of a noob at map making  Oh well, good to see it happening now atleast </3
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On May 03 2012 17:45 Elldar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:51 Kambing wrote:
- We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Obvious solution is to make the build time for spine crawlers 40 seconds like any other defensive structure, not to mess with queen energy.
That would break ZvZ early game. Aggresive pool would be much stronger with 10 seconds difference.
Spine rush would be much stronger.
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On May 03 2012 17:47 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:45 Elldar wrote:On May 03 2012 08:51 Kambing wrote:
- We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Obvious solution is to make the build time for spine crawlers 40 seconds like any other defensive structure, not to mess with queen energy. That would break ZvZ early game. Aggresive pool would be much stronger with 10 seconds difference. Spine rush would be much stronger.
So true, other races forget that when zergs get 6 pooled they build spines on our creep 
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I like that Blizzard is testing balance changes in a custom game as opposed to the PTR. But these changes are bizarre to me. They don't seem necessary, yet have a potentially big impact (opposite of the way Blizz usually tries to balance).
As a Terran player, I am bummed that there are no changes to T. Since this seems to be the thread for it, I'll make my own requests: make ravens faster and make HSM cost less energy. I would also like to see reaper build time decreased again, but I doubt that has a chance of happening.
Also, though P is certainly strong enough late game: Is Blizz ever going to look at carriers?
If Blizz is looking at balance changes through custom games, they might consider throwing in some wackier ideas. I hope they do.
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Observers already build so fast (after that one patch)... I don't think they need ANOTHER decrease.
I like the Overlord change. Queens, I dunno yet.
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The overlord change is nice but not needed imho. The other changes are... well, not that good.
Queen energy should start at 25 so you have to chose between creep spread and injecting. Also, that change would make creep spread with additional queens too fast if each queen can put down 2 tumors on spawning.
Observer build time is ok atm, i don't see any reason to reduce it.
As for improving Zerg early game defenses, make Queens ground attack stronger or increase armor by 1. They can't be used offensively in any way early game apart from proxy hatch, so making them slightly stronger would help a lot in defense without opening more options for cheese. +1 Armor would also help a ton against Marine, Zealot or Zergling all-ins.
Another idea i have for Queens is to make them massive. Forcefield on your ramp due to warp prism sentry? No longer a problem.
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On May 03 2012 17:51 mangoloid wrote:
I like that Blizzard is testing balance changes in a custom game as opposed to the PTR. But these changes are bizarre to me. They don't seem necessary, yet have a potentially big impact (opposite of the way Blizz usually tries to balance).
As a Terran player, I am bummed that there are no changes to T. Since this seems to be the thread for it, I'll make my own requests: make ravens faster and make HSM cost less energy. I would also like to see reaper build time decreased again, but I doubt that has a chance of happening.
Also, though P is certainly strong enough late game: Is Blizz ever going to look at carriers?
If Blizz is looking at balance changes through custom games, they might consider throwing in some wackier ideas. I hope they do.
Well, with GSL semi finals and the finals coming up.
They definitely want to see the feedbacks from those matches to see which changes is needed to balance the TvP match-up.
Thats the most likely reason why they are not yet implementing any changes for terran.
Honestly, i feel Terran is struggling with TvP in the late game.
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Could mods remove the call to action thing so people understand that this is actually an interesting thread with balance changes from blizzard in it?
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And people say Blizzard don't listen to community. They might be slow, but they are going in the right way, which is great!
Also good that they are a keeping and eye on the lategame TvP!
<3 Blizzard!!
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EPT
