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Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 39

Forum Index > SC2 General
2110 CommentsPost a Reply
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Rannasha
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Netherlands2398 Posts
May 03 2012 10:04 GMT
#761
Instead of the queen energy change, how about making the queen less prone to dying in the early game. The queen is the centerpiece of the zerg macro and losing it early on can come at a great cost. Having a relatively weak unit be so pivotal to the economy of zerg makes the whole thing rather fragile.

Give the queen additional armor. This prevents her from getting taken out too quickly by 2 zealots or a few marines. Increase queen armor by 2. This should make the queen rather sturdy against lings, marines and zealots (in decreasing order of effect), allowing her to survive the early assault much better. To prevent late-game queens from being too strong of a tank when upgrades kick in, prevent the queen from getting any of the zerg armor upgrades.
Such flammable little insects!
Dvriel
Profile Joined November 2011
607 Posts
May 03 2012 10:04 GMT
#762
On May 03 2012 19:02 Liquid`TLO wrote:


why skip queens, make more queens, nothing else.


U dont need early Queen for only creep with this change,because u ll have two active tumors creating it,so 150 mins saved for u,and surely spent in drones.Anyway i dont think u said it seriously...


Mrvoodoochild1
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1439 Posts
May 03 2012 10:04 GMT
#763
Just tested it, queens are too good. By the time Hellions get to your base, you already have creep spreading outside your ramp
"let your freak flag fly"
Lovely_US
Profile Joined August 2011
United States94 Posts
May 03 2012 10:05 GMT
#764
On May 03 2012 18:58 Dvriel wrote:
Very nice and usefull buff for Z.Overlord speed is great and Z needed.Now overlords crossing map much safer and scouting will be better.

Queen buff its too much i think.Starging with both creep and inject its just crazy.Hellions wont deny anything,because creep will grow much faster with 2 tumors,and not only this,Z will skip 3rd queen in TvZ so there are 3 more drones...


No zergs will not... You still need the Queen to help your creep spread (2 tumors is not enough to spread your creep...). In addition you still like the 3rd queen to go to your eventual macro hatch or 3rd base so having a 3rd queen is useful to have some defense against helions and other pushes up until your third base... the only change is 1 tumor... Skipping a queen means you lose the benefits of that queen, and the effect will be the same after patch as before the patch (assuming nothing changes).
Zihua
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands177 Posts
May 03 2012 10:07 GMT
#765
On May 03 2012 19:04 Rannasha wrote:
Instead of the queen energy change, how about making the queen less prone to dying in the early game. The queen is the centerpiece of the zerg macro and losing it early on can come at a great cost. Having a relatively weak unit be so pivotal to the economy of zerg makes the whole thing rather fragile.

Give the queen additional armor. This prevents her from getting taken out too quickly by 2 zealots or a few marines. Increase queen armor by 2. This should make the queen rather sturdy against lings, marines and zealots (in decreasing order of effect), allowing her to survive the early assault much better. To prevent late-game queens from being too strong of a tank when upgrades kick in, prevent the queen from getting any of the zerg armor upgrades.


How about changing nothing, since there is absolutely no problem here?
Cuce
Profile Joined March 2011
Turkey1127 Posts
May 03 2012 10:09 GMT
#766
make +25 starting energy for queens thing a factor of evolution chamber. not an upgrade just kinda like queens birthed after an evo starts with 50 energy. this way, your first 2 queens start with 25 and others with 50.
I guess you can make it evo/warren/lair too but just something to keep first two queens at 25 energy is needed.
64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
May 03 2012 10:10 GMT
#767
On May 03 2012 19:04 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
Just tested it, queens are too good. By the time Hellions get to your base, you already have creep spreading outside your ramp


just fyi, if u use ur first queen for a tumor instead of an inject that already happens anyway. alternatively u can make a fast 3rd queen and also get the same effect. its all about being good and diligent about ur creep spread.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 03 2012 10:11 GMT
#768
How do they patch this if not with an actual patch? Do they just upload new ladder maps with new parameters, or is there another way?
Cuce
Profile Joined March 2011
Turkey1127 Posts
May 03 2012 10:11 GMT
#769
you can update your maps
64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE
dicex
Profile Joined November 2010
127 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 10:15:32
May 03 2012 10:14 GMT
#770
The other really important factor of the queen change is that it helps against early air pressure. I could imagine that it is extremely helpful if the panic queens you build after scouting banshees/voids have one transfusion ready when they spawn.
Since strats like double starport are one of the most mindless "i hope he doesn't scout it in time"-builds out there, everything that weakens this stuff adds to to the balance of the game...
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
May 03 2012 10:15 GMT
#771
On May 03 2012 19:10 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 19:04 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
Just tested it, queens are too good. By the time Hellions get to your base, you already have creep spreading outside your ramp


just fyi, if u use ur first queen for a tumor instead of an inject that already happens anyway. alternatively u can make a fast 3rd queen and also get the same effect. its all about being good and diligent about ur creep spread.


Thats the point, you are sacrificing an inject for it, but not anymore.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 10:21:12
May 03 2012 10:18 GMT
#772
On May 03 2012 19:15 radiantshadow92 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 19:10 Ballistixz wrote:
On May 03 2012 19:04 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
Just tested it, queens are too good. By the time Hellions get to your base, you already have creep spreading outside your ramp


just fyi, if u use ur first queen for a tumor instead of an inject that already happens anyway. alternatively u can make a fast 3rd queen and also get the same effect. its all about being good and diligent about ur creep spread.


Thats the point, you are sacrificing an inject for it, but not anymore.



its actually not that big of a deal. ur gonna be ahead in drones regardless. id still use first queen for 2 tumors instead of a first inject + tumor, but thats just me.
kinglemon
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany199 Posts
May 03 2012 10:20 GMT
#773
On May 03 2012 19:11 Conti wrote:
How do they patch this if not with an actual patch? Do they just upload new ladder maps with new parameters, or is there another way?


maybe hotfix, because it's only numbers that change and nothing else.
Lovely_US
Profile Joined August 2011
United States94 Posts
May 03 2012 10:24 GMT
#774
On May 03 2012 19:04 Dvriel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 19:02 Liquid`TLO wrote:


why skip queens, make more queens, nothing else.


U dont need early Queen for only creep with this change,because u ll have two active tumors creating it,so 150 mins saved for u,and surely spent in drones.Anyway i dont think u said it seriously...



2 tumors is not enough. Not even close... So what happens when the Terran scans and takes out the 2 active tumors? Oh no more creep spread? The third queen is still necessary. Just early game you had to choose between a tumor or an inject, and now you don't have to. Thats it...
b0rt_
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway931 Posts
May 03 2012 10:24 GMT
#775
I can see this overlord buff going live, not sure how else they'd buff gsl zergs without overly buffing the rest of us. Not sure why certain high level players in here say they should balance the game then recommend a spine crawler buff that would wreck zvz.
iGn1t3
Profile Joined May 2011
Hong Kong73 Posts
May 03 2012 10:25 GMT
#776
omg. no more decision making between larva injection vs creep tumor. I am a zerg player and it is insane~
I lose today to win tomorrow.
Baum
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1010 Posts
May 03 2012 10:26 GMT
#777
If they buff scouting for Protoss and Zerg they might as well buff scouting for Terran since it is way too easy to deny scouting for Protoss when Stalkers are out and scans are not a reliable way of scouting.
I want to be with those who share secret things or else alone.
memcpy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
May 03 2012 10:26 GMT
#778
Could be overestimating the significance of this but the queen energy increase may add an unintended buff to early game zvp with 14 pool 15 hatch. Normally if get the hatch down on time then as soon as the first queen finishes you start a new one so you can transfer the first one down and have both ready to inject. With additional energy you can delay the second queen in exchange for a slightly delayed second inject but a quicker third. -zerg player
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
May 03 2012 10:27 GMT
#779
Blizz finally start opening their eyes after 2 years, it was about time
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 10:30:32
May 03 2012 10:28 GMT
#780
There are two things that are needed. First off, these balance changes should be made for every ladder map. Balance differs for every map and it's not like it's a hard thing to pull off. But actually releasing a custom map with balance changes for the community to examine is perhaps one of the smartest things Blizzard has done up to date.

Secondly, we need professional players to give their opinion on the new balance. Especially players like TLO or Kiwikaki, who have an eye for gimmicky yet effective tactics/strategies. These pro players should give their opinion to the community, but if Blizzard is really smart, they'll set up a private forum so that pros can discuss balance between themselves without having lesser players (sorry bros, but that's how it is) intervene.

This was done for Aoe3, TAD. When ES disbanded and RE was created (google it), the community almost died because of the terrible state of the game at the time. There were two civs who were 2 good notches above every other civ. RTSS (google it) invited a select group of top players to discuss balance and make a custom-made fanpatch. The fanpatch first fixed the two best civs with good nerfs. The top players then worked on a second fanpatch that balanced the game to a level never seen before. It was astounding. The fanpatch prolonged Aoe3's lifespan for about a year.
If anything, this just proves how valuable top players working on balance can be. If Blizzard realizes this and starts working with actual pros, the game could get a lot of design flaws fixed really well. The changes proposed here are a step in the right direction. I hope the trend continues.

Sources:
http://rts-sanctuary.com/index.php?portal=TAD&showtopic=117569
http://rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian-Dynasties/showtopic=136145
maru lover forever
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