EPT+ Show Spoiler +
The comments on scripting were pure speculation by myself, on how I saw it being played out, Xeris has confirmed via posts in this thread, it was not scripted, so all posts claiming that should stop as of now. Thank you.
On May 01 2012 05:57 Kennigit wrote:
I'm the first one to jump on the backs of misuse of females in esports, unqualified talent that were hired based on looks etc....but this..this seems completely fine to me 0_o
When i first read your post i thought "oh not again" but upon watching the video it seems pretty light and entertaining - sure theres room for improvement, buts its a brand new segment and that's to be expected.
Overall, i find these small segments that NASL have been adding really interesting and break up the flow of constant games nicely.
I'm the first one to jump on the backs of misuse of females in esports, unqualified talent that were hired based on looks etc....but this..this seems completely fine to me 0_o
When i first read your post i thought "oh not again" but upon watching the video it seems pretty light and entertaining - sure theres room for improvement, buts its a brand new segment and that's to be expected.
Overall, i find these small segments that NASL have been adding really interesting and break up the flow of constant games nicely.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote:
Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
THREAD:
NASL has recently with NASL season 3, introduced a new ESPN'esc desk format, and one of the corners are well, Soe's Corner.
DISCLAIMER: This thread is not to be discriminatory, sexist, and/or something a troll would invest his time in.
General Forum Opinions:
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Positive:
-We would like to see how it progresses
-It is good for inclusion of women, and does not cross the line of simply using sex appeal to do so
-We enjoyed the history/lore aspect along with the art
-Fans enjoyed the personality
-General opinion shows most players believe it should remain (via poll)
-General opinion shows most players believe the level of analysis is good for bringing in new players, over complicate may result in less attention.
Negative:
-A few (including myself) have felt it seems scripted, perhaps iron that out
-We would like to see how it progresses
-It is good for inclusion of women, and does not cross the line of simply using sex appeal to do so
-We enjoyed the history/lore aspect along with the art
-Fans enjoyed the personality
-General opinion shows most players believe it should remain (via poll)
-General opinion shows most players believe the level of analysis is good for bringing in new players, over complicate may result in less attention.
Negative:
-A few (including myself) have felt it seems scripted, perhaps iron that out
-Be more specific on content, either give the history and lore, or give the balance, 4 minutes is a short amount of time to fill so don't diverge to much.
Thread Updates:
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-After rewatching the video, and viewing some comments, I suppose the biggest issue was "she will discuss, playstyles, units, maps" which from the very first video, was directly related to the Sentries abilities/strengths, but in a poor manner, at least compared to other events/organizations take on these sort of "corners". She could however, have an awesome "show" on lore/history/events/community news, because she does sound nice, look the part, and present the information in an appealing way.
Reply: She seemed awkward in her role, and thus I assumed it was scripted. If she was not reading off a script, it signifies and even lower understanding I would suggest, especially discussing the sentry immo push.
-After reviewing comments on how I did not break down the issues I've found I will present them here;
1)She did exactly what Sean Plott always warned about, gave a "build order" and didn't clearly explain it (gave very simple parameters for it) and said "you just kinda attack" and did not explain the end goal
2)She went on to discuss pivotal points, such as sentries in PvP but lead players to believe (if they are newer) that the unit has very little meaning throughout the game, while during the early stages of a match, and throughout the midgame they are extremely important, though her statements on lategame pvp were correct, I felt as if it was misleading
On May 01 2012 04:26 Xeris wrote:
The strategy portion of the segment is not intended to appeal to a high level audience. If you're going to be critical in a post like this, at least explain why.
You say her analysis is bad but don't point out how and why it was bad.
Also, she wasn't reading off a script at all
The strategy portion of the segment is not intended to appeal to a high level audience. If you're going to be critical in a post like this, at least explain why.
You say her analysis is bad but don't point out how and why it was bad.
Also, she wasn't reading off a script at all
Reply: She seemed awkward in her role, and thus I assumed it was scripted. If she was not reading off a script, it signifies and even lower understanding I would suggest, especially discussing the sentry immo push.
-After reviewing comments on how I did not break down the issues I've found I will present them here;
1)She did exactly what Sean Plott always warned about, gave a "build order" and didn't clearly explain it (gave very simple parameters for it) and said "you just kinda attack" and did not explain the end goal
2)She went on to discuss pivotal points, such as sentries in PvP but lead players to believe (if they are newer) that the unit has very little meaning throughout the game, while during the early stages of a match, and throughout the midgame they are extremely important, though her statements on lategame pvp were correct, I felt as if it was misleading
Soe's Layout and Presentation:
Soe's corner shows (as of right now) a sketchboard and an analysis of a certain unit, this is for the MOST BASIC of gamers, but it also gives a backdrop into the unit's history and where it was pre-release.
Soe's Overall Presentation:
This is the part that kind of upsets me, NASL has done great things this season, from the MULE thing (dunno what that was about) to just content in general they are really diversifying, but I believe they've stepped over the line and perhaps did the wrong thing.
she, for lack of a better term, is analytically terrible. Her discussion is suppose to be based on, well the units and how to use them, but they come off almost as if they needed someone to draw, and then someone to read and decided why not, we have an artist anyway. She is suppose to be explaining the units, in a manner that will improve peoples understanding and ability to use them, she is in fact harming said players play by not being competent with her own content. An example for this would be like when Artosis and I believe Tasteless casted a warcraft 3 game, where it just simply was awful (extremely funny though) and then they tried teaching new players during the cast, it just wouldnt help.
Is this good for NASL?
After season 1, and season 2, it is no estimation that NASL is on the rise, they have delivered on many fronts, but I fear they may be dropping into the "mascot" dilemma that ST and SlayerS have fallen into with the female players associated with there teams respectively, giving positions to females where males who have achieved more (even Code B players who Artosis has said numerous times could compete in Code S if the qualifiers were not so difficult) get put aside.
Now before we jump and say "YOU SEXIST HATER" let's take a step back here, this is an opiniated thread and you can rebut anything I say, but the situation is as of the present;
Pros:
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-She is attractive
-She is a good artist
-She can speak fluently
-She is a good artist
-She can speak fluently
Cons:
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-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand
-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well
-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well
So, the question is, do you believe she fits the role correctly, and deserves the spot as an attractive, artist who speaks fluently? Or do you believe she should never have gotten the job based on her lack of overall knowledge.
An example would be ESPN hiring a female artist to analyse the Stanley Cup Playoffs, but forget to ask if she understands how hockey works.
POLL
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COMMUNITY REPLIES
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These replies are for well rounded rebuttals to any of the statements made above, one liners and rude statements obviously will either be admitted to the list with thorough editing or just simply be ignored.
Those who disagree:
Reply: I would agree with this, I did enjoy the concept of the art/and community input but I believe the trade off of is not acceptable. So if they did as you say, and change the outlook to just a fun "here's this unit, here's where it came from, here's some pretty pictures" then maybe a fan vote for the next weeks content (doesn't even have to be a unit, maybe "politcal" art on David Kim and Bowder : P
Reply: It is a very general theme, it isn't that she said "hydras counter marine medvac" for instance, it isn't a massive error or shortcoming, it is just simply the general feel and represnetation of the show, at best if it IS to be analytical, she should play a small supporting role to a more knowledgeable host and draw the art.
Reply: I agree, as an artist she is really good, and as a segment it is a creative idea, the thread is not about NASL's decision to have the content, or a talented artist, it is about the choice of host and how it reflects.
Those who agree:
Reply: That is exactly what I am getting at, the artwork and history was good but the segment on the build order was either extremely out of place, or she isn't fit for the job. She literally went against the great Day[9]'s cardinal rule of teaching new players, it's not about the build, its all about the execution and destination...
Those who disagree:
90% of the people that post on Starcraft forums are in the same situation, so this in and of itself is no reason to get rid of it. Perhaps changing it from analysis to more of a general informative session would be better. If she/NASL actually wants to do analysis perhaps it would be helpful for her to understand the game in order to explain it with conviction.
Give it some time, I'm sure it will improve. I like the idea of a sort of starcraft-art show, so perhaps this is the direction it should go in?
Give it some time, I'm sure it will improve. I like the idea of a sort of starcraft-art show, so perhaps this is the direction it should go in?
Reply: I would agree with this, I did enjoy the concept of the art/and community input but I believe the trade off of is not acceptable. So if they did as you say, and change the outlook to just a fun "here's this unit, here's where it came from, here's some pretty pictures" then maybe a fan vote for the next weeks content (doesn't even have to be a unit, maybe "politcal" art on David Kim and Bowder : P
On May 01 2012 04:18 Reedjr wrote:
@NeMeSiS3 You actually did not provide any examples to support your points whatsoever. You speak generally about "harming players by being incompetent with her content" but have no actual specific examples of said content, nor an explanation as to why it is terrible. It's difficult to actually engage in a constructive argument when there are no actual points being debated. .
@NeMeSiS3 You actually did not provide any examples to support your points whatsoever. You speak generally about "harming players by being incompetent with her content" but have no actual specific examples of said content, nor an explanation as to why it is terrible. It's difficult to actually engage in a constructive argument when there are no actual points being debated. .
Reply: It is a very general theme, it isn't that she said "hydras counter marine medvac" for instance, it isn't a massive error or shortcoming, it is just simply the general feel and represnetation of the show, at best if it IS to be analytical, she should play a small supporting role to a more knowledgeable host and draw the art.
On May 01 2012 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I thought Soe's segment was cute. The little interludes between NASL games are pretty interesting, and I don't find this one to be particularly bad.
I'm all for seeing how her Corner progresses and plays out over the next week or few weeks, giving her some time to get comfortable and get into a rhythm.
Also, her drawings are really good.
I thought Soe's segment was cute. The little interludes between NASL games are pretty interesting, and I don't find this one to be particularly bad.
I'm all for seeing how her Corner progresses and plays out over the next week or few weeks, giving her some time to get comfortable and get into a rhythm.
Also, her drawings are really good.
Reply: I agree, as an artist she is really good, and as a segment it is a creative idea, the thread is not about NASL's decision to have the content, or a talented artist, it is about the choice of host and how it reflects.
Those who agree:
On May 01 2012 04:16 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
I watched a bit of it and agree that it was obvious that she had no idea what she was talking about.
I watched a bit of it and agree that it was obvious that she had no idea what she was talking about.
On May 01 2012 04:50 IsraeL wrote:
The build order thing was bad, especially (ASAP) & (+2 is ideal) & (Normally start off with an FFE - lol) seem like a really carelessly casual ways to describe a "build" that was "the first thing that came to mind". At this point it was clear she had no understanding of what she was talking about, theres little point in pulling up on all the other stupid stuff.
The whole concept seems completely confused, she's kinda cute but I don't see that should have anything to do with it. Overall I think there are hundreds of people out there who could come up with a 4min video with vastly superior content, I'm surprised this seemed good enough for NASL.
The build order thing was bad, especially (ASAP) & (+2 is ideal) & (Normally start off with an FFE - lol) seem like a really carelessly casual ways to describe a "build" that was "the first thing that came to mind". At this point it was clear she had no understanding of what she was talking about, theres little point in pulling up on all the other stupid stuff.
The whole concept seems completely confused, she's kinda cute but I don't see that should have anything to do with it. Overall I think there are hundreds of people out there who could come up with a 4min video with vastly superior content, I'm surprised this seemed good enough for NASL.
Reply: That is exactly what I am getting at, the artwork and history was good but the segment on the build order was either extremely out of place, or she isn't fit for the job. She literally went against the great Day[9]'s cardinal rule of teaching new players, it's not about the build, its all about the execution and destination...
Video Evidence:
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On May 01 2012 04:20 thegesl wrote:
Discussion related to "sex appeal"
Note: It should be alluded to that the point of this thread is not sex appeal, and it is of my opinion that Soe presented herself perfectly fine, the question posed was merely about why she would have got the job, and looks are definitely on the possibility list, along with artistic skills and fluent speaking so the discussion had to be brought up.
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On May 01 2012 04:42 Schickysc wrote:
Ignoring sex appeal is childish. These are businesses. If it works, use it. Are cheerleaders bad for sports? No. Is getting women involved with esports in any way possible, bad? No.
What if my fiance was watching with me, who doesn't understand the game much and just watches to be around me, saw this is and thought, "Hey, a woman seems to have an understanding of this, and seems to be having fun... maybe my bias and perception of this esports/Starcraft is wrongly placed..."? Would that be such a bad thing? Her looks have nothing to do with the principal, but it's tv/media, of course you want someone attractive.
Ignoring sex appeal is childish. These are businesses. If it works, use it. Are cheerleaders bad for sports? No. Is getting women involved with esports in any way possible, bad? No.
What if my fiance was watching with me, who doesn't understand the game much and just watches to be around me, saw this is and thought, "Hey, a woman seems to have an understanding of this, and seems to be having fun... maybe my bias and perception of this esports/Starcraft is wrongly placed..."? Would that be such a bad thing? Her looks have nothing to do with the principal, but it's tv/media, of course you want someone attractive.
"these are businesses, if it works, use it" Well, prostitutes work also, and so do strippers are clubs, but I doubt that is what eSports are trying to say about women in gaming culture. IF ANYTHING subjectifying women should be on the way out, getting women involved in esports is amazing, and I support it, but "any way" means selling their body (figuratively) on a show over the content of the show then no, I believe that is morally wrong. If your fiance was watching with you, and said "she seems to have an understanding" then that is dandy, but once she begins to learn anything about the game, even at silver level, she'll start to question why David Kim has better balance advice then an NASL talk show or segment...
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
Reply: I would have to agree with this standpoint, I can say that it may not be inappropriate Sex Appeal, perhaps this thread derailed slightly at my particular interest in the subject, and I would also agree with the point on pretty people generally get more spotlight (makes sense) and having a girl do it is great, but shouldn't the girl... perhaps be on par with the males? It's not like she needed to play 10 hours a day, to have more fluent knowledge of the game. Perhaps if she just sat down and studied the game a bit more?
