The comments on scripting were pure speculation by myself, on how I saw it being played out, Xeris has confirmed via posts in this thread, it was not scripted, so all posts claiming that should stop as of now. Thank you.
On May 01 2012 05:57 Kennigit wrote: I'm the first one to jump on the backs of misuse of females in esports, unqualified talent that were hired based on looks etc....but this..this seems completely fine to me 0_o
When i first read your post i thought "oh not again" but upon watching the video it seems pretty light and entertaining - sure theres room for improvement, buts its a brand new segment and that's to be expected.
Overall, i find these small segments that NASL have been adding really interesting and break up the flow of constant games nicely.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
THREAD: NASL has recently with NASL season 3, introduced a new ESPN'esc desk format, and one of the corners are well, Soe's Corner.
DISCLAIMER: This thread is not to be discriminatory, sexist, and/or something a troll would invest his time in.
Positive: -We would like to see how it progresses -It is good for inclusion of women, and does not cross the line of simply using sex appeal to do so -We enjoyed the history/lore aspect along with the art -Fans enjoyed the personality -General opinion shows most players believe it should remain (via poll) -General opinion shows most players believe the level of analysis is good for bringing in new players, over complicate may result in less attention.
Negative: -A few (including myself) have felt it seems scripted, perhaps iron that out
-Be more specific on content, either give the history and lore, or give the balance, 4 minutes is a short amount of time to fill so don't diverge to much.
-After rewatching the video, and viewing some comments, I suppose the biggest issue was "she will discuss, playstyles, units, maps" which from the very first video, was directly related to the Sentries abilities/strengths, but in a poor manner, at least compared to other events/organizations take on these sort of "corners". She could however, have an awesome "show" on lore/history/events/community news, because she does sound nice, look the part, and present the information in an appealing way.
On May 01 2012 04:26 Xeris wrote: The strategy portion of the segment is not intended to appeal to a high level audience. If you're going to be critical in a post like this, at least explain why.
You say her analysis is bad but don't point out how and why it was bad.
Also, she wasn't reading off a script at all
Reply: She seemed awkward in her role, and thus I assumed it was scripted. If she was not reading off a script, it signifies and even lower understanding I would suggest, especially discussing the sentry immo push.
-After reviewing comments on how I did not break down the issues I've found I will present them here; 1)She did exactly what Sean Plott always warned about, gave a "build order" and didn't clearly explain it (gave very simple parameters for it) and said "you just kinda attack" and did not explain the end goal 2)She went on to discuss pivotal points, such as sentries in PvP but lead players to believe (if they are newer) that the unit has very little meaning throughout the game, while during the early stages of a match, and throughout the midgame they are extremely important, though her statements on lategame pvp were correct, I felt as if it was misleading
Soe's Layout and Presentation: Soe's corner shows (as of right now) a sketchboard and an analysis of a certain unit, this is for the MOST BASIC of gamers, but it also gives a backdrop into the unit's history and where it was pre-release.
Soe's Overall Presentation: This is the part that kind of upsets me, NASL has done great things this season, from the MULE thing (dunno what that was about) to just content in general they are really diversifying, but I believe they've stepped over the line and perhaps did the wrong thing.
she, for lack of a better term, is analytically terrible. Her discussion is suppose to be based on, well the units and how to use them, but they come off almost as if they needed someone to draw, and then someone to read and decided why not, we have an artist anyway. She is suppose to be explaining the units, in a manner that will improve peoples understanding and ability to use them, she is in fact harming said players play by not being competent with her own content. An example for this would be like when Artosis and I believe Tasteless casted a warcraft 3 game, where it just simply was awful (extremely funny though) and then they tried teaching new players during the cast, it just wouldnt help.
Is this good for NASL? After season 1, and season 2, it is no estimation that NASL is on the rise, they have delivered on many fronts, but I fear they may be dropping into the "mascot" dilemma that ST and SlayerS have fallen into with the female players associated with there teams respectively, giving positions to females where males who have achieved more (even Code B players who Artosis has said numerous times could compete in Code S if the qualifiers were not so difficult) get put aside.
Now before we jump and say "YOU SEXIST HATER" let's take a step back here, this is an opiniated thread and you can rebut anything I say, but the situation is as of the present;
-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand -She does not analyse the things she is discussing well
So, the question is, do you believe she fits the role correctly, and deserves the spot as an attractive, artist who speaks fluently? Or do you believe she should never have gotten the job based on her lack of overall knowledge.
An example would be ESPN hiring a female artist to analyse the Stanley Cup Playoffs, but forget to ask if she understands how hockey works.
These replies are for well rounded rebuttals to any of the statements made above, one liners and rude statements obviously will either be admitted to the list with thorough editing or just simply be ignored.
Those who disagree:
90% of the people that post on Starcraft forums are in the same situation, so this in and of itself is no reason to get rid of it. Perhaps changing it from analysis to more of a general informative session would be better. If she/NASL actually wants to do analysis perhaps it would be helpful for her to understand the game in order to explain it with conviction.
Give it some time, I'm sure it will improve. I like the idea of a sort of starcraft-art show, so perhaps this is the direction it should go in?
Reply: I would agree with this, I did enjoy the concept of the art/and community input but I believe the trade off of is not acceptable. So if they did as you say, and change the outlook to just a fun "here's this unit, here's where it came from, here's some pretty pictures" then maybe a fan vote for the next weeks content (doesn't even have to be a unit, maybe "politcal" art on David Kim and Bowder : P
On May 01 2012 04:18 Reedjr wrote: @NeMeSiS3 You actually did not provide any examples to support your points whatsoever. You speak generally about "harming players by being incompetent with her content" but have no actual specific examples of said content, nor an explanation as to why it is terrible. It's difficult to actually engage in a constructive argument when there are no actual points being debated. .
Reply: It is a very general theme, it isn't that she said "hydras counter marine medvac" for instance, it isn't a massive error or shortcoming, it is just simply the general feel and represnetation of the show, at best if it IS to be analytical, she should play a small supporting role to a more knowledgeable host and draw the art.
On May 01 2012 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I thought Soe's segment was cute. The little interludes between NASL games are pretty interesting, and I don't find this one to be particularly bad.
I'm all for seeing how her Corner progresses and plays out over the next week or few weeks, giving her some time to get comfortable and get into a rhythm.
Also, her drawings are really good.
Reply: I agree, as an artist she is really good, and as a segment it is a creative idea, the thread is not about NASL's decision to have the content, or a talented artist, it is about the choice of host and how it reflects.
Those who agree:
On May 01 2012 04:16 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: I watched a bit of it and agree that it was obvious that she had no idea what she was talking about.
On May 01 2012 04:50 IsraeL wrote: The build order thing was bad, especially (ASAP) & (+2 is ideal) & (Normally start off with an FFE - lol) seem like a really carelessly casual ways to describe a "build" that was "the first thing that came to mind". At this point it was clear she had no understanding of what she was talking about, theres little point in pulling up on all the other stupid stuff.
The whole concept seems completely confused, she's kinda cute but I don't see that should have anything to do with it. Overall I think there are hundreds of people out there who could come up with a 4min video with vastly superior content, I'm surprised this seemed good enough for NASL.
Reply: That is exactly what I am getting at, the artwork and history was good but the segment on the build order was either extremely out of place, or she isn't fit for the job. She literally went against the great Day[9]'s cardinal rule of teaching new players, it's not about the build, its all about the execution and destination...
Discussion related to "sex appeal" Note: It should be alluded to that the point of this thread is not sex appeal, and it is of my opinion that Soe presented herself perfectly fine, the question posed was merely about why she would have got the job, and looks are definitely on the possibility list, along with artistic skills and fluent speaking so the discussion had to be brought up. + Show Spoiler +
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
Ignoring sex appeal is childish. These are businesses. If it works, use it. Are cheerleaders bad for sports? No. Is getting women involved with esports in any way possible, bad? No.
What if my fiance was watching with me, who doesn't understand the game much and just watches to be around me, saw this is and thought, "Hey, a woman seems to have an understanding of this, and seems to be having fun... maybe my bias and perception of this esports/Starcraft is wrongly placed..."? Would that be such a bad thing? Her looks have nothing to do with the principal, but it's tv/media, of course you want someone attractive.
"these are businesses, if it works, use it" Well, prostitutes work also, and so do strippers are clubs, but I doubt that is what eSports are trying to say about women in gaming culture. IF ANYTHING subjectifying women should be on the way out, getting women involved in esports is amazing, and I support it, but "any way" means selling their body (figuratively) on a show over the content of the show then no, I believe that is morally wrong. If your fiance was watching with you, and said "she seems to have an understanding" then that is dandy, but once she begins to learn anything about the game, even at silver level, she'll start to question why David Kim has better balance advice then an NASL talk show or segment...
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
Reply: I would have to agree with this standpoint, I can say that it may not be inappropriate Sex Appeal, perhaps this thread derailed slightly at my particular interest in the subject, and I would also agree with the point on pretty people generally get more spotlight (makes sense) and having a girl do it is great, but shouldn't the girl... perhaps be on par with the males? It's not like she needed to play 10 hours a day, to have more fluent knowledge of the game. Perhaps if she just sat down and studied the game a bit more?
Holy shit, it was the first episode. Of course it's going to be a little rough around the edges until she finds her groove. It also looks like this is going to be interactive with the community, and since it was the first episode that entire section was gone. Chill out and, if it's still as terrible as you seem to think after a few more, then grab your torches and pitchforks.
On May 01 2012 04:05 Reedjr wrote: Holy shit, it was the first episode. Of course it's going to be a little rough around the edges until she finds her groove. It also looks like this is going to be interactive with the community, and since it was the first episode that entire section was gone. Chill out and, if it's still as terrible as you seem to think after a few more, then grab your torches and pitchforks.
Sir, should you perhaps lay down your coffee mug? I believe you are over the 10 cup cap. As her first show, I believe it is ample time to discuss it. You did not rebut any of the issues, being "interactive" is all fun and games but doesn't discuss the lack of analysis you find in it. All I've done is pose a simple question, so relax.
An example would be ESPN hiring a female artist to analyse the Stanley Cup Playoffs, but forget to ask if she understands how hockey works.
Not even close, this is just pure condescension.
How is this? Please elaborate, one sentence replies won't voice your position very clearly. If you post it in a fashion that rebuts it, I plan to post it to my main thread.
I watched a bit of it and agree that it was obvious that she had no idea what she was talking about.
That being said 90% of the people that post on Starcraft forums are in the same situation, so this in and of itself is no reason to get rid of it. Perhaps changing it from analysis to more of a general informative session would be better. If she/NASL actually wants to do analysis perhaps it would be helpful for her to understand the game in order to explain it with conviction.
Give it some time, I'm sure it will improve. I like the idea of a sort of starcraft-art show, so perhaps this is the direction it should go in?
edit: one line that really struck me as super awkward was something like "when I think of sentries the first thing that comes to mind is the 8 sentry immortal push". First of all this build should NOT be advocated in a public forum, its really unfair. Second of all, it was obvious that she was trying to sound casual and in doing so made it all the more uncomfortable.
I don't remember getting the impression she didn't know her sc2 when she did some casting with day9 and khaldor waaay back... you got the Pros right though
@NeMeSiS3 You actually did not provide any examples to support your points whatsoever. You speak generally about "harming players by being incompetent with her content" but have no actual specific examples of said content, nor an explanation as to why it is terrible. It's difficult to actually engage in a constructive argument when there are no actual points being debated.
@Nony it played during last night's NASL broadcast.
How is this? Please elaborate, one sentence replies won't voice your position very clearly. If you post it in a fashion that rebuts it, I plan to post it to my main thread.[/QUOTE]
lol, you don't get to 20000 posts in < 2 years by being elaborate
I haven't seen this, but I would be quite surprised if she didn't know what she's talking about considering some of her casting in the past seemed fairly solid/accurate, and that's not something you can read from a script.
The strategy portion of the segment is not intended to appeal to a high level audience. If you're going to be critical in a post like this, at least explain why.
You say her analysis is bad but don't point out how and why it was bad.
Is that the Soe who also hosted some SC2 events? I'm sure she knows the game pretty well.
But I haven't seen it yet, so no idea how it was. But NASL seems to creat stupid segments a lot just to get some women on their show, I remember when Megumi was on right after the show recapping all the games, pretty senseless stuff.
I thought it was fine. It's not supposed to be deep analysis, it's just a casual look at a unit and some history and basic info. I thought the part about the sentry/immortal push was a little silly, but it wasn't a huge deal.
I really liked the part about the unit's development history, especially.
On May 01 2012 04:26 corpuscle wrote: I thought it was fine. It's not supposed to be deep analysis, it's just a casual look at a unit and some history and basic info. I thought the part about the sentry/immortal push was a little silly, but it wasn't a huge deal.
I really liked the part about the unit's development history, especially.
I also enjoyed that portion, maybe tailor it towards things on that end?
I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
So you are suggesting that we rather discriminate good looking women in esports? I don't get your point at all, doesn't make sense to me.
Seems like a lil' casual show, okay with me. Won't watch it but if it attracts some people because they enjoy the "not that deep" stuff, it's great.
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
She's also been active in the scene and a talented artist, wouldn't want to reverse discriminate against her looks either
I thought Soe's segment was cute. The little interludes between NASL games are pretty interesting, and I don't find this one to be particularly bad.
I'm all for seeing how her Corner progresses and plays out over the next week or few weeks, giving her some time to get comfortable and get into a rhythm.
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
She's also been active in the scene and a talented artist, wouldn't want to reverse discriminate against her looks either
Haha, no I am not saying that, but there are around 3 posts so far saying "as long as shes good looking" or variations of that, as if the content doesnt matter. Combat-ex was around the scene for much longer, but I don't think I'd have him hosting the next MLG show on balance...
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
God, come back to the 21 century this arnt the 1960.
i feel like she could have someone knowledgeable about starcraft like Day[9] for the first few months then after she becomes knowledgable then she would be awesome :D
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
Ignoring sex appeal is childish. These are businesses. If it works, use it. Are cheerleaders bad for sports? No. Is getting women involved with esports in any way possible, bad? No.
What if my fiance was watching with me, who doesn't understand the game much and just watches to be around me, saw this is and thought, "Hey, a woman seems to have an understanding of this, and seems to be having fun... maybe my bias and perception of this esports/Starcraft is wrongly placed..."? Would that be such a bad thing? Her looks have nothing to do with the principal, but it's tv/media, of course you want someone attractive.
i agree, she was obviously reading a script and didnt understand what she was talking about, it was all mechanical and nothing actually coming from her own words, at the same time, i personally dont find her attractive, or dont find that her being a 'good artist' is worth much of anything (she can draw a voidray... cool?)
the only part that i do enjoy with her addition to the show is the fact that the show is now expanding and obviously showing alot more diversification than it did in previous seasons, which is always impressive
I think its a great start, and I think that this is aimed at a broader audience, I would rather have a segment after the matches that is aimed newbs, and have more indepth casting!!! Hopefully that will happen, overall I liked the segment.
The only things I see wrong are +2 attack with sentry immortals is not a good "timing attack" and the selected replay had no immortals and was vs T. :|
Artwork and history of the sentry was really cool to watch.
Otherwise, why raise such a huge stink over this? Just cause she's a girl? :|
I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
This is obviously not aimed at a hardcore fan or player but that doesn't mean that it's not good for reeling in the newbies. Everyone's gotta start somewhere right?
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
She's also been active in the scene and a talented artist, wouldn't want to reverse discriminate against her looks either
Haha, no I am not saying that, but there are around 3 posts so far saying "as long as shes good looking" or variations of that, as if the content doesnt matter. Combat-ex was around the scene for much longer, but I don't think I'd have him hosting the next MLG show on balance...
Combat-ex's opinion on balance is not really comparable to her artistic talent at all. There are multiple components that are good and beneficial that make her a good fit for the position. One of those is attractiveness. I don't see any problem with that being a facet of what makes her good on the segment. If that was the only thing I would have a problem.
On May 01 2012 04:46 CPTBadAss wrote: This is obviously not aimed at a hardcore fan or player but that doesn't mean that it's not good for reeling in the newbies. Everyone's gotta start somewhere right?
Only I don't think describing a sentry immortal push is going to draw new people in or be helpful to them at all. Anyone with the knowledge to know what that push is isn't going to need that info.
No problems with the corner being there but I do agree at least that the way the info is presented is awkward. Not that she's awkward, just that it seems like she's reading a script and has no idea what she's talking about- which is fine, but then whoever's writing the script needs to be better.
The build order thing was bad, especially (ASAP) & (+2 is ideal) & (Normally start off with an FFE - lol) seem like a really carelessly casual ways to describe a "build" that was "the first thing that came to mind". At this point it was clear she had no understanding of what she was talking about, theres little point in pulling up on all the other stupid stuff.
The whole concept seems completely confused, she's kinda cute but I don't see that should have anything to do with it. Overall I think there are hundreds of people out there who could come up with a 4min video with vastly superior content, I'm surprised this seemed good enough for NASL.
I don't see how this is any different than sports programs having segments with female hosts? Maybe she's not that "into" the game, but what do you expect really? Not everyone needs to be a super-nerd to get the TL stamp of approval.
On May 01 2012 04:31 Schickysc wrote: I think its targetted to a specific part of the audience, that will really help out the game and the scene. Whether that's teenagers who want eye candy (shes very attractive, sex appeal sells), or newer players/viewers that don't really know the units/races/strategy but watch with friends because they like explosions and hype.
Thumbs up from me.
Sex appeal is exactly what we should avoid in the community, as any sport, it actually discriminates against women and alienates them as objects, gives the perspective "she got the job because of her looks, I'll never get into the scene"
Alienating women is NOT good for esports, whether teenage boys are masturbating to it or not...
She's also been active in the scene and a talented artist, wouldn't want to reverse discriminate against her looks either
Haha, no I am not saying that, but there are around 3 posts so far saying "as long as shes good looking" or variations of that, as if the content doesnt matter. Combat-ex was around the scene for much longer, but I don't think I'd have him hosting the next MLG show on balance...
Combat-ex's opinion on balance is not really comparable to her artistic talent at all. There are multiple components that are good and beneficial that make her a good fit for the position. One of those is attractiveness. I don't see any problem with that being a facet of what makes her good on the segment. If that was the only thing I would have a problem.
She can draw, she can speak fluently and she is attractive, they were listed on the pros vs cons, the issue is the lack of depth/knowledge... Many artistic people are all three of those things, but shouldn't some knowledge be needed when discussing things that players will be affected by? I'm sure many noobs will go, well don't make sentries PvP, and "well this immorta/+2/sentry timing bust at a time not specified for a situation not specified is a good idea, I'll do that a bunch of times" and then players substantially get worse. I'm all for attractive, smart, knowledgable women, but that last part imo is key.
That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
On May 01 2012 04:54 torm3ntin wrote: There are so many other places to get info for B.Os and get SC2 knowledge. We watch her because she is cute. Period.
Her art is pretty awesome too.... Coming from a person with no artistic ability, that matters to me.
Tyler hit it spot on. The hard core fans are getting their content from the games, the filler content should be pulling in as many new faces as possible.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
I believe, sex appeal, was one of the smaller issues on the table, I'd be interested to get your opinions on the balance portion, specifically the sentry/immortal push, I feel as if that portion was the reason I posted this thread, it is A) teaching bad habits and B) not improving new players
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
When I first saw it at the NASL, I thought to myself "These guys with their billion new ways to make a delay entertaining, I'm impressed". I got the sense she reads the stuff, which means whoever - the most knowledgeable analytical person in the universe could write the content - so the only downfall would be that it's a reading and not improvised speech. Well, for this kind of content improvisation would probably make it worse. Even if it was Artosis speaking, I'd actually prefer that he prepares and edits the text carefully and then read it. And if that's the case, why not Soe read it, a bit of a refreshing change in the atmosphere, plus she is a legit gamer and you can tell she does at least understand what she reads.
And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
The thing is, the basic idea of going sentry/immortal/stalker against roach is an excellent way to demonstrate the sentry's main purpose. That situation is perhaps the one where sentries are most effective across all matchups and strategies (barring FF's on ramps, which they also show). It doesn't really matter what the exact details of the build are. In fact you can probably take MC Huk and Naniwa and ask them each to do that strat and they'd each do it differently. But the next time some new fan watches this approximate situation, they're gonna see how important sentries are and how they tie the whole thing together. They're not gonna see two immortals and nine sentries and think NASL is feeding them a bunch of bullshit.
I did not have any problems with this segment. The lore/history of the sentry I actually found very interesting for someone who didn't follow the beta at all. Regarding the strategy part, Xeris already explained that it was never meant to appeal to any mid-high level players.
Actually, for someone who watches the show, but doesn't play the game, the level of "analysis" presented could probably be on the right level. If you go too deep you will easily lose people who aren't as familiar with the strategy part of the game.
To grow the game you need to appeal to a wider audience, and we already got deeper analysis for people who understand the game well. This was a very small segment and surely shouldn't bother anyone that much, especially since it was presented in an entertaining way.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, this was the first 'episode' of Soe's Corner. Give it some time and it will improve from what was already a good start.
On May 01 2012 05:00 Liquid`NonY wrote: And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
The thing is, the basic idea of going sentry/immortal/stalker against roach is an excellent way to demonstrate the sentry's main purpose. That situation is perhaps the one where sentries are most effective across all matchups and strategies (barring FF's on ramps, which they also show). It doesn't really matter what the exact details of the build are. In fact you can probably take MC Huk and Naniwa and ask them each to do that strat and they'd each do it differently. But the next time some new fan watches this approximate situation, they're gonna see how important sentries are and how they tie the whole thing together. They're not gonna see two immortals and nine sentries and think NASL is feeding them a bunch of bullshit.
I don't understand why you are being so Hostile... Not once did I ever laugh or insult, I just stated my opinion... In fact I took your comment in high regard, reposted it on the main thread page, and agreed with the substance of your post while trying to keep a very unbiased thread throughout... No one (or at least myself) has denied that FF's on ramps are no the core purpose, but simply the slopped together aspect of the balance discussion... I do not know why you decided to comment in such a profoundly unprofessional way, but I will not invest much time into it anymore Tyler, obviously that wont matter to you because "pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore plays/fans"...
^^ he's not being hostile at all O_o. He's implying that your opinion is wrong or at least that you're taking the segment a little too seriously and then explains why.
I watched Soe's Corner in the live broadcast and then watched it again here to make sure I remembered it correctly. I was going to try and add to the discussion, but Nony has summed up my thoughts perfectly. It is not supposed to be a high level analysis and it certainly isn't going to lead a new player astray.
Soe is pretty, funny, an excellent artist, and also relatively well known in eSports circles. I enjoyed the segment and applaud NASL for adding actual CONTENT to their downtime (MLG/IPL TAKE NOTE!!). If I was going to complain about something for NASL, this wouldn't even make the top 5.
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
On May 01 2012 05:00 Liquid`NonY wrote: And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
The thing is, the basic idea of going sentry/immortal/stalker against roach is an excellent way to demonstrate the sentry's main purpose. That situation is perhaps the one where sentries are most effective across all matchups and strategies (barring FF's on ramps, which they also show). It doesn't really matter what the exact details of the build are. In fact you can probably take MC Huk and Naniwa and ask them each to do that strat and they'd each do it differently. But the next time some new fan watches this approximate situation, they're gonna see how important sentries are and how they tie the whole thing together. They're not gonna see two immortals and nine sentries and think NASL is feeding them a bunch of bullshit.
Another perspective to consider is that there will never ever be a good resource on strategy. Yeah some things will be blatantly wrong. But nothing will ever stay up-to-date and perfectly reflect what the best players in the world are currently thinking and doing. I don't see the content of Soe's Corner as especially bad. It's not as close to perfect as they could possibly get but that gap is inconsequential. I see Soe's Corner as introducing and explaining a unit like LoL's champion spotlights explain a champion. There are no champion spotlights followed by HSGG copying Phreak's build exactly and using the champion for the exact same roles. The video puts the basics out there and shows some specific examples of how things come together in action. If someone who never played LoL studied the shit out of every champion spotlight, they would get SO much more out of watching LoL despite having practically zero insight into what the pros are really doing. Same with Soe's Corner.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
I believe, sex appeal, was one of the smaller issues on the table, I'd be interested to get your opinions on the balance portion, specifically the sentry/immortal push, I feel as if that portion was the reason I posted this thread, it is A) teaching bad habits and B) not improving new players
Seriously? Someone wants to draw pretty SC2-related pictures during downtime, and your concern is that it's not improving new players?
It's really hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a sexist concern, in the sense that you would absolutely not be applying the same level of scrutiny to this spot if it was hosted by a man. I don't doubt your good faith, but this does not have a very inclusive feel to it.
Moreover, you're not even giving constructive feedback on how the show could be improved, you're just calling for it to be eliminated.
Reserving my full judgment to give her some room to improve as she has potential. First impression is that she's decent but as Ostojiy pointed out doesn't seem to really understand the script. This makes her look rather uneasy at times especially compared to actual analysts that look comfortable doing it even on the fly.
I found the art part unnecessary in that particular segment. Personally I feel it would have been better done showing actual gameplay screens and footage esp during the analysis. Her art talents can be displayed in a much better way by recording her drawing various drawings and showing them in fast speed during transitions between games and other segments, kind of like those youtube videos or Gabe's art on PA.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
I believe, sex appeal, was one of the smaller issues on the table, I'd be interested to get your opinions on the balance portion, specifically the sentry/immortal push, I feel as if that portion was the reason I posted this thread, it is A) teaching bad habits and B) not improving new players
Seriously? Someone wants to draw pretty SC2-related pictures during downtime, and your concern is that it's not improving new players?
It's really hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a sexist concern, in the sense that you would absolutely not be applying the same level of scrutiny to this spot if it was hosted by a man. I don't doubt your good faith, but this does not have a very inclusive feel to it.
Moreover, you're not even giving constructive feedback on how the show could be improved, you're just calling for it to be eliminated.
I completely disagree with your entire post, I watch and invest my time into things for the content, I paid for MLG to get my content, I paid IPL because they gave good content (I could have sat back and gotten the 480p but because of the content I paid).
This was entirely suppose to be related to content, my thread is as god damned unbias as I could make it... If this was iNcontrol hosting and it was something I believed is bad, then I damn well would have posted... Don't say this is some sexist concern, and furthermore thats not downing Geoff, he's an amazing host/caster/player.
The point of this thread was stated, I believed it had poor analysis, sex appeal was one of my most minor concerns so please post content related and not verbal insults towards me insinuating that I am only conerned over the gender of the issue.
It sort of entertained me, especially the 'history'. I think it's the same girl as who had something to do with WoW at blizzcon or the EU invites for that (which wasn''t a great success.. max zoomed camera can't see anything anyone?).
Seems it's short and you can't really fit anything detailed about a certain unit involved in certain strats (you might pick one strat, let's say early 1 base double colossi all-in and talk about how the colossi could be used), I mean sentries can be used for tons of things, I'd focus something like this more on specific fun little things. Grabbing one unit give a couple of examples (I still don't know what hallucination and guardian shield do after watching) - too short.
Either: - Dive in on something specific - (forcefields and it's way to use it) - Go more global - (go trough all abiltities, without any details, as in strats to use)
Not bits of both, it's sort of confusing afterwards, has potential though. As for the fact it's a woman presenting? Aren't most weatherbroadcasts, news, etc, women now-a-days?
It was alright for a segment and i hope it comeback, if the strat was not spot on.. get real. Casters who play the game at rather high level and cast games all week are wrong about strats sometime. How can she not be wrong, if she wasnt the segment would be a loss of HER time, she would be coaching for a Korean team.
If esport is going to get bigger, you have to do things for new players who are not familiar with the game until it can sustain itself. Until we ge to the points when our kids ask why he his making so many snow globes and we explain what it does, we will need more of those, not less.
The jist I got from Soe's Corner was to introduce a unit to the less knowledgeable audience as well as its history with Blizzard and it's lore. I don't really see any aspect of the feature that can be ridiculed and poked at. I found it quite interesting. Also, Soe is an amazing artist/sculptor and it is a treat to get to watch her doing what she does best. I think Nony summed it up quite well.
On May 01 2012 05:21 Dreadwolf wrote: It was alright for a segment and i hope it comeback, if the strat was not spot on.. get real. Casters who play the game at rather high level and cast games all week are wrong about strats sometime. How can she not be wrong, if she wasnt the segment would be a loss of HER time, she would be coaching for a Korean team.
If esport is going to get bigger, you have to do things for new players who are not familiar with the game until it can sustain itself. Until we ge to the points when our kids ask why he his making so many snow globes and we explain what it does, we will need more of those, not less.
There is a big difference between "on the fly" casting of a game, and casting in a "show" atmosphere. I shouldn't have to "get real" because she's wrong on the content she is suppose to be an expert on, showing us all about. "how can she not be wrong" well perhaps because it is her show...
But it isn't that I believe she was quote "wrong" it was that she plain seemed out of place, I suppose that must just because I'm us to knowledgeable content...
Oh nony dropping serious truth, A few additionals, I feel like women can't fucking win in esports, Soe is dressed in jeans and and a not particular low cut t shirt and plaid shirt over the top, and the fact this can be derided as "degrading woman" by anyone boggles my mind. She has a talent, speaks well in front of the camera and presents accessible material in filler segments for NASL,I'm kinda confused as to why there is such a fuss.
I don't have a problem with it. It's a 4 min filler segment meant to kill time. It's not meant to appeal to the hardcore posters of TL. I love all the little segments NASL does as it's much better than looking at a splash screen as filler.
By the way, the segment they did with SelecT and viOLet using construction equipment to move around a pile a dirt didn't teach new players anything... you gonna complain about that too?
Even if she was a complete moron and everything she said was super basic and/or wrong, it's better than watching a "stay tuned!" screen and listening to some generic electro-pop or muscle rock, which is what 90% of tournaments do to fill time.
I've been following Soe a little over a year after she did some co-casting VODs with Day[9] in Germany, you can find one the videos here:+ Show Spoiler +
and you'll find more on Day[9]'s channel.
And baised on those videos I would say that she knows what she is talking about. I think her and Day[9] did an excellent job casting together, and it wasn't just Day[9] bringing all the fancy analytical analysis. Even though they are over one year old, I can't imagine a girl like Soe, forgetting everything that is Starcraft and I'm 100% sure she hasn't.
I think that Soe's cornor was a cute little time killer, and I would love to see more of it, and more shows like that in general. They don't have to be top of the line deep deep analysis, just throw in some fun facts and show some strategies. The real treat is the games afterall, so throwing in a small thing like this is amazing, in my opinion.
Some of the comments in this thread really reminds me of the Lindsay Spore era in one of the previous NASL seasons. But I can ensure you, Soe knows her shit! Soe is funny, talented, loves eSports and a really nice person.
The only thing I think they need to do better, is having taking some close-ups of the drawings, they were kinda hard to see, and usually her drawings are AMAZING!
On May 01 2012 05:36 corpuscle wrote: By the way, the segment they did with SelecT and viOLet using construction equipment to move around a pile a dirt didn't teach new players anything... you gonna complain about that too?
Even if she was a complete moron and everything she said was super basic and/or wrong, it's better than watching a "stay tuned!" screen and listening to some generic electro-pop or muscle rock, which is what 90% of tournaments do to fill time.
... If content is mean't to be funny, then I'm glad it is funny. If it is mean't to be analysis based, and is not, then why show it? The argument "even if she is a complete moron and everything she said was basic or wrong" is a terrible argument, firstly because I never once said she was wrong or a moron but mainly because that takes away from the community. If it is suppose to be her own talk show, with cool backstory and lore, then show that but don't get into a balance discussion over the unit or discuss its attributes so thinly. That is all I was trying to get across...
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The community loves to pitchfork any woman in esports. Then anyone that comes to their defense is branded a white knight (not necessarily in this thread, but in general).
O.o Don't see what was so terribly wrong with that clip. It's aimed at super beginners, so who cares if she's not explaining things to the depth of Artosis and Day9... that's not the intended purpose.
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The community loves to pitchfork any women in esports. Then anyone that comes to their defense is branded a white knight (not necessarily in this thread, but in general).
Defend girl on internet? Definitely trying to cyber.
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A GIRL IS ON THE INTERNET this cannot stand!
I never intended this to be a "girl on the internet" post, and it has been taken that way. I have stated numerous times, it was about content matter... If a male provided content I felt lacking, I would have posted also... If anything, the "it's a women" scare was the opposite I would ever want... Women in esports = 100% approval by me, for instance I was a fan of Scarlett before IPL (unlike most of this community) and the appearence of Anna from EG as host at an event I just can't recall...
So please stop insinuating that I am against girls on the internet, or the only reason I posted this was because of that... It's plain wrong.
I'm the first one to jump on misuse of females in esports - unqualified talent that were hired based on looks etc....but this..this seems completely fine to me 0_o
When i first read your post i thought "oh not again" but upon watching the video it seems pretty light and entertaining - sure theres room for improvement, buts its a brand new segment and that's to be expected.
Overall, i find these small segments that NASL have been adding really interesting and break up the flow of constant games nicely.
On May 01 2012 05:36 corpuscle wrote: By the way, the segment they did with SelecT and viOLet using construction equipment to move around a pile a dirt didn't teach new players anything... you gonna complain about that too?
Even if she was a complete moron and everything she said was super basic and/or wrong, it's better than watching a "stay tuned!" screen and listening to some generic electro-pop or muscle rock, which is what 90% of tournaments do to fill time.
... If content is mean't to be funny, then I'm glad it is funny. If it is mean't to be analysis based, and is not, then why show it? The argument "even if she is a complete moron and everything she said was basic or wrong" is a terrible argument, firstly because I never once said she was wrong or a moron but mainly because that takes away from the community. If it is suppose to be her own talk show, with cool backstory and lore, then show that but don't get into a balance discussion over the unit or discuss its attributes so thinly. That is all I was trying to get across...
Soooo, try thinking of this as entertainment instead of education and you are good?
Seriously, it was had so much more content than dirt moving. That doesn't mean I'm going to judge the "mining content" harshly, I see no reason for this excessive criticism, the fillers are just that - fillers!
Nemesis: I think you started defending yourself against remarks that wasn't directed at your/your posts. I refer to the post below and the one eralier on the page. We are not out to get you, man, and people have made snide remarks directed at each other plenty of times in this thread.
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Don't tell the community they're bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself. I did it once. I barely survived.
Perhaps all of the negative feedback from player to pro is based on sarcastic remarks? I have yet to insult any professional player, and/or caster I even refrain usually from making fun of Blizzard employee's until Mr. Kim decided "imbalanced maps make the game more fun" and that crossed the line...
Constantly you have been labeling me, and the community as these stereotypical idiot trolls... I'm sorry, but myself personally, cannot agree with that. I have supported you as a professional player, and for the past 2 years in your horrendous slump I have always said "Nony's gonna come back" and I've been a loyal fan... You have continually been arrogant and rude, for no reason at all, and as I've said before you really just won't care, but I am no longer a fan... I tried to make this thread as unbias as possible, that doesn't matter... Perhaps instead of condeming the community as a group that "are bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself" you should perhaps invest your time in "the game itself, instead of stuff outside the game" to perhaps improve... But what do I know, I'm not a professional player, so probably nothing.
And I'm sorry Mr Bitter that is the case, I didn't mean to create a thread to rival the post count of your live reports...
This seems completely fine. Her strategy tips aren't high level, obviously, but they're not supposed to be, nor are they the main focus of the segment. As a simple explanation of what the unit is and what it does, it works quite nicely, and her artwork (which is excellent, by the way) is a nice way to illustrate what she's saying. I also really appreciate NASL not "sexing her up" in any way. She looks nice and normal, and that's great. Overall, it's a nice segment.
The only con I see is that her accent is occasionally a little hard to follow (though very clear in general). Other than that, it's all good.
I think a lot of people on this forum need to chill out. Not every new thing in ESPORTS needs to be raked over the coals or hyperventilated over.
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It's been a slow couple days. Most of the top threads have been there all weekend. No new news. No major tournaments. People were bound to jump on the first new thing there was to talk about.
On May 01 2012 06:01 HorsemasterK wrote: I still don't see what the problem is. Tons of SC2 content with questionable merit for the highest level players, why does this stand out?
I didn't feel as if this applied, I never said we should tailor it for the highest level players, low level is fine, I just felt it was dumb'd down so harshly and present poorly enough that it may have a negative impact on beginner players... For instance, many may say "Hey look, make this shit and I can 1A win" without really thinking to deeply. Sure that's fun, but if the goal is improvement it sure seems away from the point.
Funny how someone so concerned with accurate analysis could so wildly miss the point of the clip. And the finger shaking at NonY..? What a troll this kid is.
All the filler content NASL is producing is great, kudos to them for upping the standards.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
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Don't tell the community they're bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself. I did it once. I barely survived.
Perhaps all of the negative feedback from player to pro is based on sarcastic remarks? I have yet to insult any professional player, and/or caster I even refrain usually from making fun of Blizzard employee's until Mr. Kim decided "imbalanced maps make the game more fun" and that crossed the line...
Constantly you have been labeling me, and the community as these stereotypical idiot trolls... I'm sorry, but myself personally, cannot agree with that. I have supported you as a professional player, and for the past 2 years in your horrendous slump I have always said "Nony's gonna come back" and I've been a loyal fan... You have continually been arrogant and rude, for no reason at all, and as I've said before you really just won't care, but I am no longer a fan... I tried to make this thread as unbias as possible, that doesn't matter... Perhaps instead of condeming the community as a group that "are bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself" you should perhaps invest your time in "the game itself, instead of stuff outside the game" to perhaps improve... But what do I know, I'm not a professional player, so probably nothing.
Uhhh...what?
What prompted this kind of defensive response in the context of Nony's comment? I haven't seen Nony say anything in this thread about you personally being an idiot troll. The rest of your comments regarding Nony's play are unwarranted and far outside the scope of the discussion you created.
He's responded to your points concisely and eloquently. I don't understand what prompts this vitriol.
On May 01 2012 06:04 kuroshiro wrote: I thought that spot was pretty good.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
I'll take your advice because of the nice hat, no, really though, I do agree with what your saying related to the sexism argument and I guess the best action would be to simply not reply.
On your ideas, what did you, as a gold player, really get? I also agree I loved the lore, but I worry players perhaps even lower leveled than gold, will now just say "sentry immo +2 stalker maybe blink timing? ok I'll use it" and just barrel in and say "fuck why didn't I understand it clearer" but perhaps I was being to analytical.
this thread gets more posts in an hour than our live reports...
Don't tell the community they're bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself. I did it once. I barely survived.
Perhaps all of the negative feedback from player to pro is based on sarcastic remarks? I have yet to insult any professional player, and/or caster I even refrain usually from making fun of Blizzard employee's until Mr. Kim decided "imbalanced maps make the game more fun" and that crossed the line...
Constantly you have been labeling me, and the community as these stereotypical idiot trolls... I'm sorry, but myself personally, cannot agree with that. I have supported you as a professional player, and for the past 2 years in your horrendous slump I have always said "Nony's gonna come back" and I've been a loyal fan... You have continually been arrogant and rude, for no reason at all, and as I've said before you really just won't care, but I am no longer a fan... I tried to make this thread as unbias as possible, that doesn't matter... Perhaps instead of condeming the community as a group that "are bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself" you should perhaps invest your time in "the game itself, instead of stuff outside the game" to perhaps improve... But what do I know, I'm not a professional player, so probably nothing.
Uhhh...what?
What prompted this kind of defensive response in the context of Nony's comment? I haven't seen Nony say anything in this thread about you personally being an idiot troll. The rest of your comments regarding Nony's play are unwarranted and far outside the scope of the discussion you created.
He's responded to your points concisely and eloquently. I don't understand what prompts this vitriol.
And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
On May 01 2012 06:04 kuroshiro wrote: I thought that spot was pretty good.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
I'll take your advice because of the nice hat, no, really though, I do agree with what your saying related to the sexism argument and I guess the best action would be to simply not reply.
On your ideas, what did you, as a gold player, really get? I also agree I loved the lore, but I worry players perhaps even lower leveled than gold, will now just say "sentry immo +2 stalker maybe blink timing? ok I'll use it" and just barrel in and say "fuck why didn't I understand it clearer" but perhaps I was being to analytical.
I mean it's not the end of the world if a player tries a sentry immortal push with +2 weapons, gets stomped and tries to find a way to make it work...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
Have you ever listened to him on SotG? I really just took it as him being blunt. I really don't think he meant to be insulting. The burden of communicating on the internet of course.
I mean it's not the end of the world if a player tries a sentry immortal push with +2 weapons, gets stomped and tries to find a way to make it work...
Exactly. A major problem with bronze/silver players, is that they wanna turtle a lot. A bronze player may see this and think... "Oh so force fields are useful while attacking, not just defending? Oh I'm supposed to do a timing attack when I get upgrades? Makes sense!"
On May 01 2012 06:04 kuroshiro wrote: I thought that spot was pretty good.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
I'll take your advice because of the nice hat, no, really though, I do agree with what your saying related to the sexism argument and I guess the best action would be to simply not reply.
On your ideas, what did you, as a gold player, really get? I also agree I loved the lore, but I worry players perhaps even lower leveled than gold, will now just say "sentry immo +2 stalker maybe blink timing? ok I'll use it" and just barrel in and say "fuck why didn't I understand it clearer" but perhaps I was being to analytical.
I mean it's not the end of the world if a player tries a sentry immortal push with +2 weapons, gets stomped and tries to find a way to make it work...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
Have you ever listened to him on SotG? I really just took it as him being blunt. I really don't think he meant to be insulting. The burden of communicating on the internet of course.
This has strayed off topic, partly due to my own fault, let's let bygones be bygones then if that is how it was mean't.
On May 01 2012 06:04 kuroshiro wrote: I thought that spot was pretty good.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
I'll take your advice because of the nice hat, no, really though, I do agree with what your saying related to the sexism argument and I guess the best action would be to simply not reply.
On your ideas, what did you, as a gold player, really get? I also agree I loved the lore, but I worry players perhaps even lower leveled than gold, will now just say "sentry immo +2 stalker maybe blink timing? ok I'll use it" and just barrel in and say "fuck why didn't I understand it clearer" but perhaps I was being to analytical.
I mean it's not the end of the world if a player tries a sentry immortal push with +2 weapons, gets stomped and tries to find a way to make it work...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
Have you ever listened to him on SotG? I really just took it as him being blunt. I really don't think he meant to be insulting. The burden of communicating on the internet of course.
This has strayed off topic, partly due to my own fault, let's let bygones be bygones then if that is how it was mean't.
^^ No worries. Hopefully this has been good feedback for NASL!
And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
But it is a valid point, and really no reason to get upset. It only says that starcraft is a game of enough skill gap to have some strategic observations seem useful to some while completely pointless and ridiculous to others. You can't explain to a beginner what is intended for the ears of a pro. We are somewhere in between those extremes and shouldn't judge it too harshly when someone makes points too shallow for our level. Had the stratetic advice been directed to someone our level, it would go over the head of someone else, and still be shallow and pointless to yet others.
On May 01 2012 06:04 kuroshiro wrote: I thought that spot was pretty good.
Your points: "-She seems to be reading a script she doesn't understand" I know that's been debunked but the implication was that she was speaking uncomfortably, which I didn't detect beyond the standard non-native speaker thing.
"-She does not analyse the things she is discussing well" If that's the case it went totally over my head. I'm gold-> plat league so maybe I don't know better, but it's sure given me what look like some fun ideas to practice. Maybe the spot just isn't aimed any higher. I certainly think it would be difficult to do so within 4 minutes, including the lore stuff, which as it happens I enjoyed (mostly because of the drawings).
That's my opinion at least!
Putting on my INTARNET SAICOLOGY hat: This thread is framed in a really `drama' fashion. Constantly being on the defensive and bringing up how this thread IS NOT about sexism only brings the sexism argument out of the background. If you have a valid point to make that's not related to sexism then just.. you know.. make it. And if it's valid or worth arguing over people will do so. Some asshats will bring up the sexism thing, but we ignore those guys. Cause they're asshats.
I'll take your advice because of the nice hat, no, really though, I do agree with what your saying related to the sexism argument and I guess the best action would be to simply not reply.
On your ideas, what did you, as a gold player, really get? I also agree I loved the lore, but I worry players perhaps even lower leveled than gold, will now just say "sentry immo +2 stalker maybe blink timing? ok I'll use it" and just barrel in and say "fuck why didn't I understand it clearer" but perhaps I was being to analytical.
I mean it's not the end of the world if a player tries a sentry immortal push with +2 weapons, gets stomped and tries to find a way to make it work...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ above quote was the main reason I began getting upset... His first and third posts were very to the point, but his 2nd and fourth were only mean't in rude ways... I doubt the "pros laugh at and insult and shit on opinions of hardcore players/fans" was mean't in a joking manner...
Have you ever listened to him on SotG? I really just took it as him being blunt. I really don't think he meant to be insulting. The burden of communicating on the internet of course.
This has strayed off topic, partly due to my own fault, let's let bygones be bygones then if that is how it was mean't.
^^ No worries. Hopefully this has been good feedback for NASL!
Hopefully, but I just hope it wasn't taken in a extremely poor light, hell I only posted this to help improve through how I viewed it... I wasn't sitting in my chair, "bastards think they can have a good season! muhaahah I shall god damn bring them down post by post!" I really enjoy this season, in fact, I was debating on not watching NASL this season but they stepped the bar up extremely high compared to the previous.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
We dont script it at all.
You do mean "the side content" (as in Gretorp's or Bitterdam's jokes), not Soe's Corner, right?
Because if Soe (or anyone, really) speaks with such great historical detail just off the top of her head, I suggest they invite her to cast the GSL. :D
Are you expecting her to put a detailed analysis of the sentry in every three matchups in <5 minutes? It is just a piece of fluffy content between matches. Keep in mind, that she has to cope to the audience (mainly "casuals") and she is very limited timewise . It feels a bit like you are just trying to get some drama going, when there really is nothing major to talk/argue about.
Also your personal beef with nony does not belong in this thread.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
I wish I could go back and alter the way I posted it, it wasn't that the entire show wasn't good... I suppose you're the expert on everything eSport, what is your take on the specific portion of build discussion and how it relates to lower level players? Most people have generally said that, it is fine for low leagues, but I still hold my reservations especially from wtaching enough of your dailies way back in BW when I went from D- to B in a matter of months, where you said the biggest problem was getting a build order when your learning (or at least a major issue) and having no execution or endgoal (midgame) to look at, which is what was given.
So I suppose, what is your take on the build discussion.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
Cons: -She does not analyse the things she is discussing well
well in that case she shares something in common with a majority of the sc2 casters so you should probably complain about that instead of some random NASL segments
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
On May 01 2012 06:28 qqK wrote: day9 is biased, cause it's Soe :D
Now now, I doubt that!
Don't get why you are so hung up about her analysis. You have yet to even explain how it's bad/wrong. She explains a very basic concept, and I'm sure it is helpful for low level players.
Even pro players and high profile figures in the community have posted that even her analysis segment isn't that bad. I really don't understand how you continue to harp on this.
I see no issue with this segment whatsoever, people need to chillax, a nice segment in between games really. Nothing that many haven't known before, but for me, if they had this kind of segment in the BW days it would have helped a LOT, so I'm guessing it DOES help people out, just not people who post on teamliquid forums =P.
On May 01 2012 06:57 Darksidius wrote: One day girls will be able to post eSports videos without nerds with white-knight-syndrome shitting all over it. One day...
hmm, i watch the video and i like it. Don't think there is anything wrong with what she say besides it being quite basic. Maybe you are taking it too seriously since its only a five minute segment after all. Was this shown between games? If so, i will rather watch this then the commercials or the "Game coming soon" screen.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
He hath spoken.
We shall say no more.
On topic though - i guess this thread speaks to the fact that you can never please everyone. I watched the clip and found very little wrong with it besides the minor speaking issues probably due to the fact she was speaking in English. I guess there could be some good feedback to come out of this thread that could result in some improvements but overall i hope the segment stays and continues to grow
A little off topic - NASL you're doing a kick ass job this season the casters and the extra content are really highlighting the great games!
This is a pretty cool segment actually. Why's there a huge wall of text to talk about such a simple show?
It's a girl, who talks about StarCraft... she's cute and she talks about stuff for beginners, which a lot of NASL viewers probably are. MBCgame used to have similar shows for BW.
Also to note, I think she has a British or otherwise non-Californian American accent. What's up with that NASL??!
She is a really good artist, she is cute and I liked hearing about the evolution of the sentry
Yes it didn't teach me anything about strategies or there wasn't any analysis or whatever, but I like it a lot more than what many people do nowadays, try to do high level analysis and only tell shit during 5 minutes...
On May 01 2012 05:05 Bigtony wrote: ^^ he's not being hostile at all O_o. He's implying that your opinion is wrong or at least that you're taking the segment a little too seriously and then explains why.
I watched Soe's Corner in the live broadcast and then watched it again here to make sure I remembered it correctly. I was going to try and add to the discussion, but Nony has summed up my thoughts perfectly. It is not supposed to be a high level analysis and it certainly isn't going to lead a new player astray.
Soe is pretty, funny, an excellent artist, and also relatively well known in eSports circles. I enjoyed the segment and applaud NASL for adding actual CONTENT to their downtime (MLG/IPL TAKE NOTE!!). If I was going to complain about something for NASL, this wouldn't even make the top 5.
This perfectly sums up my thoughts on the matter.
While Soe may not be known to the OP, she is fairly well known within eSports. It was the first segment and while it may not have pleased everyone (what does) it is unfair to judge it based on your initial reaction. Give it a few weeks and then maybe offer constructive criticism. I thought it was interesting to learn about the changes made to the sentry during beta and I look forward to future segments.
Also to the person who said they remembered Soe from something related to WoW, she hosted and did the interviews during the WoW arena competition last Blizzcon.
On May 01 2012 05:00 Liquid`NonY wrote: And to let you guys in on a secret, pros laugh at and insult and shit on the opinions of hardcore players/fans posting on forums just as much as hardcore players posting on forums might shit on the strategical insight offered by this clip.
But this at least made me smile. Maybe NASL could replace soe's corner with Pro's secrets with Nony.
I actually liked it quite a lot, the history was interesting for a down time and i really couldn't care less if it's 10 or 9 or 123123 sentrys, it's just a freaking lot i guess.
The only thing that let me raise my eyebrows was the thing about +2 but cmon it's one thing in many.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
Well said. Normally I am highly critical on events such as these but I could not find much at all wrong with it. The clip that was associated with the "immortal + sentry push" was bad of course, but I highly doubt that she had anything to do with that. Her overall analysis was easily Platinum +, and even with that being said the corner is not supposed to be an "Artosis Hour" or a "Day9 Daily", she described what the corner was planed to be and it seemed to be about as near to perfect as a first run such as this could have been. I am looking forward to her improving, and even though I don't believe I will benefit from this type of analysis, it is GREAT for new viewers and especially female viewers.
Keep it up NASL, great ideas that keep improving your product
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
We dont script it at all.
You do mean "the side content" (as in Gretorp's or Bitterdam's jokes), not Soe's Corner, right?
Because if Soe (or anyone, really) speaks with such great historical detail just off the top of her head, I suggest they invite her to cast the GSL. :D
I think he means NASL doesn't script her content for her.
I'm sure she wrote her own script to follow for the segment.
Seriously, that's all there is. There's no harming the players nor is there any such thing as putting herself up as sexual appeal. She is attractive yes, but she's not flaunting her chest everywhere for everyone to see.
All I see is a cute girl talking about Starcraft and makes -awesome- drawings. It's what I call a change of pace from all the action and analysis.
It's better than staring at a countdown screen between matches. (Or ads.) Honestly, I only saw the one with the sentry earrings, which were really cute. It's good to be adding content, and it's early days yet - there's always a shaking down period and getting it down to a nice routine production that everyone is comfortable with doing.
I thought it went pretty well, and like the variety.
why is this stupid thread still open, seriously in the last couple of days i noticed so many shitty totally unnecessary posts where i cant get my head around how stupid someone could actually be. its really no fun to read on tl anymore because it got destroyed by those overanalytic (female, professionalism, etc.) and stupid (everything involving macking a big thing out of what a progamer said) kids.
@op: cant u see how this thread could cleary piss soe totally off to actually doing another episode of these, when she knows every fuckign word will be put on the (gold balance?) by some nerdkids. just enjoy the game and the content that is created for free for you.
I was really disappointed with NASL season 2 especially, but have stuck with them as a subscriber and I am very glad I did. The improvement in production this season is nothing short of meteoric and Soe's corner, sunday barcraft, the European, Korean and US updates are all exactly what I want to see. Added to that the inclusion of Bitterdam I feel they have caught up with IPL content where I am also a subscriber.
I would love it if they hired maybe someone like Apollo to do the European update and Khaldor or Wolf to do same for Korea but I understand funding only stretches so far. They have already done enough to secure my subscription for season 4.
On May 01 2012 04:46 JOJOsc2news wrote: I find the wording in the OP quite condescending and the points aren't necessarily backed up very well.
However, I do see where you are coming from. The first episode did come across as a little awkward and the concept behind it didn't seem to be clear (the build order part was unnecessary and the segment didn't really seem like a "How To Do: X Build"). I really wouldn't want this segment to be cut though. Soe is a really cool person and once she gets comfortable I think it is going to be amazing. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more drawings/paintings and maybe less script. It will get more natural and I do think it's a great idea to pick out very specific aspects of StarCraft II and shine a light on them.
I also like the idea of producing side content around the pure casting. It's entertaining and really makes for a great viewing experience.
NASL seems to be scripting a lot of the side content. I don't like that. Have faith in your presenters and give them more freedom.
We dont script it at all.
You do mean "the side content" (as in Gretorp's or Bitterdam's jokes), not Soe's Corner, right?
Because if Soe (or anyone, really) speaks with such great historical detail just off the top of her head, I suggest they invite her to cast the GSL. :D
I think he means NASL doesn't script her content for her.
I'm sure she wrote her own script to follow for the segment.
I wouldn't mind if someone else would write or help for the script, by the way - it doesn't really matter since it's a script either way and she does understand it. In any case, well done!
It's one thing to have a negative opinion on this, it's another to to start a thread with an over-analytical post, including a poll about whether or not it should remain, right after the VERY FIRST EPISODE. Seriously dude?
On May 01 2012 08:58 Mastermyth wrote: It's one thing to have a negative opinion on this, it's another to to start a thread with an over-analytical post, including a poll about whether or not it should remain, right after the VERY FIRST EPISODE. Seriously dude?
This. The original post strikes me as creepy and too much free time.
She's awesome, as a terran masters player that watches plenty of sc2 every single day(though almost always only games involving terran), I didn't even know she was speaking mostly bogus, ergo, even if she's "analytically terrible" I doubt many would notice, now onto the good parts : lovely accent, gorgeous, is very good at drawing, and if anything I thought she did a much better job (even though it did seem scripted) than most involved in eSports in general, no exaggeration.
I think Soe is doing a great job, she wasnt very happy with the first episode herself and wants to improve the content in the future. It is a new format and she knows she has much to learn about sc2, but she is experienced and does not want to rely on looks or being girl to make content, but rather work on it and improve the quality. Looking forward on the next episode and hope to see more of Soe in SC2.
It doesnt matter who does it as long as they are easy to listen to and watch, as for content its good. I think to please the "hardcore" crew they could take key moments from the games that have just been played and talked about those situations. Such as an immortal bust that killed a fast exanding terran who was too greedy etc etc. You can talk about the BO advantage, why the toss did this, how the terran could hold it. I feel this kind of thing could help bring more in depth SC2 content, and who cares of she asks for help. Most people in SC2 could use some help when watching a replay.
Between the casters and now Soe, NASL seems to be trying to produce a number of these short videos for their YouTube channel. I think that there was one with Rotterdam talking about the EU SC2 scene, and I know Megumix has done one or two as well.
My only complaint with any of these videos is are any of them necessary? NASL's business goal is to be a premier SC2 league, and do these shorts further their aim? Sure, it's content, but does it add anything to the tournament? In my opinion, not really. We saw IPL do similar features such as the shorts "Eye on Esports" with Lani. Hell, just look at MLG's content production in Fall 2011 with F Slasher, SotG, Julie's Corner... I do think that a tournament producing a variety of extra content is good in theory, I don't think that it works as well as they'd like to think. While making short videos is a great way to use people already working for the NASL during down time, I wouldn't say that reaching out to outside individuals is the best use of resources.
Tournaments should focus on content that furthers their tournaments and business aims. We saw MLG slim their staff to do this. The NASL Sunday Showdown is a good example, too. Expand it with more in-depth interviews and fun, interacting with fans content. Focus on the tournament, not so much the random extras. While they are nice, they're not necessary.
On May 01 2012 06:57 Darksidius wrote: One day girls will be able to post eSports videos without nerds with white-knight-syndrome shitting all over it. One day...
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
I wish I could go back and alter the way I posted it, it wasn't that the entire show wasn't good... I suppose you're the expert on everything eSport, what is your take on the specific portion of build discussion and how it relates to lower level players? Most people have generally said that, it is fine for low leagues, but I still hold my reservations especially from wtaching enough of your dailies way back in BW when I went from D- to B in a matter of months, where you said the biggest problem was getting a build order when your learning (or at least a major issue) and having no execution or endgoal (midgame) to look at, which is what was given.
So I suppose, what is your take on the build discussion.
I think Soe did an appropriate job w/ her presentation, but I understand how you might have apprehension. Fortunately, in answering your question, I can shed some light on the problems that commentators have to solve w/ their word choice!
In commentary, you have to be super aware of what you're actually trying to do in any cast, or at any moment within that cast. This will greatly color the way the commentator speaks. For example:
Situation A Terran player opens with an aggressive attacking play vs an early expoing protoss. He needs to finish his warpgate research so his 3gates can get an extra warpin of 3 stalkers to defend the push. Suppose that, with this particular build, if Protoss chronos 4 times on his warp gate, he'll finish the warpgates just in time to defend the push. In the game, warpgate is half done, Protoss has already spent 2 chronos on the warpgate, and Protoss sees the push gathering at the Terran front.
Case 1 - I'm doing an educational daily: My goal is to be educating people. As someone who's played StarCraft competitively for 12 years, I know that a 5 second window can actually be plenty of time. I want my viewers to know that so they can feel comfortable doing it too.
In this circumstance, I can say "Ok Protoss needs to spend 4 chrono on warpgate total to defend this push. So, as long as he uses this stalker to delay the push by 10 seconds, he'll get the warpgate finished + stalkers warped in with 5 seconds to spare." If I can point out this particular issue (the 4chrono on the warpgate), tons of players who chrono probes too much are now able to defend early pushes. Moreover, they'll be able to spot situations where they can devote that chrono to probes instead. Huzzah!
Case 2 - I'm casting a major tournament: My goal is to be a storyteller and to build excitement. A 5 second window might be enough for a pro to feel safe, but 5 seconds is a REALLY short amount of time!!! It would be a HUGE error to say "oh this is going to be no problem at all. He just chrono boosts twice and warps in with 5 seconds to spare." That would kill all tension immediately. If Protoss lands the 2 chrono boosts, nobody would ever realize it was a close call. Worse, in the circumstance that Protoss misses the 2 chronos and loses, I'm now in a weird corner. The only thing that makes sense is to say "well Protoss messed that up." Though true, that makes the Protoss look bad, doesn't give due credit to the Terran, and the viewer is left kinda going "oh I guess that guy made a dumb mistake."
A much smarter play is to say "Oh man this is going to be razor close. He needs to get that warp gate chronoboosting NOW if he wants to hold up in time!!" Suddenly, the audience can sense that tension. They may have never known that there's a 5 second window with 4 chronos on the warpgate, but they feel excitement with me saying things like "It's going to come down to seconds!!"
I could share that information about the 4 chrono boosts on the warpgate and look knowledgeable, but that's not my job. The cast isn't about me dropping knowledge bombs at every opportunity. Sure dropping SOME knowledge helps make for a cleaner show, but you have to consider the case you're in.
Relating back to Soe's bit, consider what she's producing and where it's being placed. It's clearly a bit more broadly focused. Should she be going into heavy in depth information? Probably not. The content that flanks her show is game casting, content littered with in depth information from Gretorp, FrodaN, Bitterdam etc. If she did too much in depth stuff, the overall NASL look would be fairly one dimensional. So, it seems pretty reasonable to say it's more broad, introductory SC2 type stuff, or just "miscellaneous" type content. Moreover, with the time limitation, there can only be so much that's stated. What to do now?
Soe smartly accounts for this by having a simple topic "the sentry," and then breaks it into two halves: history + gameplay. I think anyone would appreciate the history stuff (I didn't know any of the info she mentioned). So, let's examine the gameplay stuff (I'll pick just the PvZ portion n' whatnot) in the same way I did before.
Situation: Soe wants to present the basic idea that immortal+sentry is a key core composition in PvZ midgame. Stalkers + upgrades round off the mixture to be pretty deadly, particularly vs roaches. Our target is the non-core SC2 players.
Possibility 1 - Speak in generalities: I could say "a few immortals" and "a lot of sentries" but a non-core player might not have any clue what this means. Sure, most players know that "a few immortals" is 2-4 and "a lot of sentries" is ~7-12 for a normal midgame, but the non-core player might not know that. He might only play 4v4 games and might attack with 15 immortals at a time. It's not clear enough.
Possibility 2 - Speak in ranges: I could say "2-4 immortals" and "7-12 sentries" and it may work pretty decently. But, if you use too many numbers/ranges, it distracts from the core goal. You're trying to highlight immortal+sentry as a strong composition, not nail down the exact ranges. It can sound clunky. Just say this sentence out loud: "2 to 3 potatoes, 4 to 6 leeks, 1 to 5 sticks of celery, 1 to 2 cups of creme." Now say "2 potatoes, 4 leeks, 3 sticks of celery, and 1 cup of creme." Notice how in the first instance, you can hear how much more emphasis is on the numbers and in the second case, it ends up being on the ingredients (for potato leek soup no less xD). I'm not saying that the "range way" is bad, but I have a personal preference to steer clear from it unless it's super relevant.
Possibility 3 - Give some exact(ish) numbers: It sounds the cleanest to say "3 immortals and 10 sentries," but does this break our goal? We want a non-core player to understand the basic composition of immortal+sentry in approximately the correct proportions. I would argue that this does satisfy our original goal by considering the different possibilities. If Naniwa performed a 2 immortal, 8 sentry push, would the non-core player think to himself "This must be a completely different attack than Soe was talking about" ?? Probably not. The non-core player would probably think "Oh, this must be kinda like what that Soe girl was talking about." I mean, hell, think about how YOU first got into StarCraft. You probably heard all kinds of stuff that you processed, thought about, considered when you saw slightly different spots etc. The average viewer is pretty damn smart about translating and building understanding.
So, all in all, I really commend Soe for how she presented it. Nothing she said was particularly deep from a "oh shit I didn't know that" perspective. But, consider how brilliantly it's stated to both be true to core strategy, but also be understandable to someone who is a non-core player. It's funny to remember that Soe has been commentating for about 3 years longer than I have. And, she's done a huge variety of games to a huge variety of audiences. Cool to see her apply her knowledge to SC2!
Cute section, harmless, well intended, and informative in regards to the history of the unit. It's very ironic that the OP keeps going on about "I'm not sexist, no sexism, blah blah," because I'm willing to bet this topic would never have been made if soe's corner was hosted by a guy, even with identical content.
whats wrong with the video, its actually interesting when you get past a girl is hosting it. it keeps attention well imo and that is what these segments are for aren't they? i don't see how you're a sexist or a hater but i do think you are trying to get your voice heard, just next time try to make it over an actual issue
I am actually speechless. Can't believe the OP here really...
I watched the segment and was very happy to see Soe there. All you have writen so far does not seem to be based on proper facts really. She said for constructive feedback you could send her an email, yet you choose to openly insult her on a public forum, even going as far as to make a poll to decide if the show should continue or not. So clearly this whole thread serves no other purpose than trying to beat on someone you seemingly dont like very much and not, as u said somewhere in between ur invalid statements, to improve the show and give the NASL feedback etc.
Keep insulting all the normal, decent and hardworking girls in eSports such as Soe, untill they cant be bothered to work in such an industry anymore and we will be left with all those cheap attention seeking ****** which get their jobs for anything but their qualifications and skills.
I agree with the majority here, Soe is a great and amazingly talented person in many ways and surely, as the show goes on she will improve and it will only get better (which does not mean that its not good already).
Thumbs up for the NASL guys, you did a great job adding someone like Soe to the team.
On May 01 2012 13:41 figq wrote: They still do quite regularly, but it got cool to pretend they're all about fundays and noobsdays. /sorry for the off-topic
On the contrary I hate this sudden (read: SOTG) notion that D[9] isnt putting his all into it. The guy works harder than anyone, and for much less. But there is no denying that the daily has become slightly more focused on entertainemnt value and attitude, and less on actual knowledge.
Disagree - and I don't even care if Day[9] works hard or not, that's his own business. But I care when people pretend the dailies don't contain serious analysis days anymore, because it's just not true. That's of course not every day - which is how the format has been since forever.
On May 01 2012 13:41 figq wrote: They still do quite regularly, but it got cool to pretend they're all about fundays and noobsdays. /sorry for the off-topic
On the contrary I hate this sudden (read: SOTG) notion that D[9] isnt putting his all into it. The guy works harder than anyone, and for much less. But there is no denying that the daily has become slightly more focused on entertainemnt value and attitude, and less on actual knowledge. But lets not derail.
Soe is a baller, she actually has a really cool segment developing. That being said, if Soe read the nutritional values off the back of a carton of milk for 5 minutes I would still watch because she is so damn cute.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
I wish I could go back and alter the way I posted it, it wasn't that the entire show wasn't good... I suppose you're the expert on everything eSport, what is your take on the specific portion of build discussion and how it relates to lower level players? Most people have generally said that, it is fine for low leagues, but I still hold my reservations especially from wtaching enough of your dailies way back in BW when I went from D- to B in a matter of months, where you said the biggest problem was getting a build order when your learning (or at least a major issue) and having no execution or endgoal (midgame) to look at, which is what was given.
So I suppose, what is your take on the build discussion.
I think Soe did an appropriate job w/ her presentation, but I understand how you might have apprehension. Fortunately, in answering your question, I can shed some light on the problems that commentators have to solve w/ their word choice!
In commentary, you have to be super aware of what you're actually trying to do in any cast, or at any moment within that cast. This will greatly color the way the commentator speaks. For example:
Situation A Terran player opens with an aggressive attacking play vs an early expoing protoss. He needs to finish his warpgate research so his 3gates can get an extra warpin of 3 stalkers to defend the push. Suppose that, with this particular build, if Protoss chronos 4 times on his warp gate, he'll finish the warpgates just in time to defend the push. In the game, warpgate is half done, Protoss has already spent 2 chronos on the warpgate, and Protoss sees the push gathering at the Terran front.
Case 1 - I'm doing an educational daily: My goal is to be educating people. As someone who's played StarCraft competitively for 12 years, I know that a 5 second window can actually be plenty of time. I want my viewers to know that so they can feel comfortable doing it too.
In this circumstance, I can say "Ok Protoss needs to spend 4 chrono on warpgate total to defend this push. So, as long as he uses this stalker to delay the push by 10 seconds, he'll get the warpgate finished + stalkers warped in with 5 seconds to spare." If I can point out this particular issue (the 4chrono on the warpgate), tons of players who chrono probes too much are now able to defend early pushes. Moreover, they'll be able to spot situations where they can devote that chrono to probes instead. Huzzah!
Case 2 - I'm casting a major tournament: My goal is to be a storyteller and to build excitement. A 5 second window might be enough for a pro to feel safe, but 5 seconds is a REALLY short amount of time!!! It would be a HUGE error to say "oh this is going to be no problem at all. He just chrono boosts twice and warps in with 5 seconds to spare." That would kill all tension immediately. If Protoss lands the 2 chrono boosts, nobody would ever realize it was a close call. Worse, in the circumstance that Protoss misses the 2 chronos and loses, I'm now in a weird corner. The only thing that makes sense is to say "well Protoss messed that up." Though true, that makes the Protoss look bad, doesn't give due credit to the Terran, and the viewer is left kinda going "oh I guess that guy made a dumb mistake."
A much smarter play is to say "Oh man this is going to be razor close. He needs to get that warp gate chronoboosting NOW if he wants to hold up in time!!" Suddenly, the audience can sense that tension. They may have never known that there's a 5 second window with 4 chronos on the warpgate, but they feel excitement with me saying things like "It's going to come down to seconds!!"
I could share that information about the 4 chrono boosts on the warpgate and look knowledgeable, but that's not my job. The cast isn't about me dropping knowledge bombs at every opportunity. Sure dropping SOME knowledge helps make for a cleaner show, but you have to consider the case you're in.
Relating back to Soe's bit, consider what she's producing and where it's being placed. It's clearly a bit more broadly focused. Should she be going into heavy in depth information? Probably not. The content that flanks her show is game casting, content littered with in depth information from Gretorp, FrodaN, Bitterdam etc. If she did too much in depth stuff, the overall NASL look would be fairly one dimensional. So, it seems pretty reasonable to say it's more broad, introductory SC2 type stuff, or just "miscellaneous" type content. Moreover, with the time limitation, there can only be so much that's stated. What to do now?
Soe smartly accounts for this by having a simple topic "the sentry," and then breaks it into two halves: history + gameplay. I think anyone would appreciate the history stuff (I didn't know any of the info she mentioned). So, let's examine the gameplay stuff (I'll pick just the PvZ portion n' whatnot) in the same way I did before.
Situation: Soe wants to present the basic idea that immortal+sentry is a key core composition in PvZ midgame. Stalkers + upgrades round off the mixture to be pretty deadly, particularly vs roaches. Our target is the non-core SC2 players.
Possibility 1 - Speak in generalities: I could say "a few immortals" and "a lot of sentries" but a non-core player might not have any clue what this means. Sure, most players know that "a few immortals" is 2-4 and "a lot of sentries" is ~7-12 for a normal midgame, but the non-core player might not know that. He might only play 4v4 games and might attack with 15 immortals at a time. It's not clear enough.
Possibility 2 - Speak in ranges: I could say "2-4 immortals" and "7-12 sentries" and it may work pretty decently. But, if you use too many numbers/ranges, it distracts from the core goal. You're trying to highlight immortal+sentry as a strong composition, not nail down the exact ranges. It can sound clunky. Just say this sentence out loud: "2 to 3 potatoes, 4 to 6 leeks, 1 to 5 sticks of celery, 1 to 2 cups of creme." Now say "2 potatoes, 4 leeks, 3 sticks of celery, and 1 cup of creme." Notice how in the first instance, you can hear how much more emphasis is on the numbers and in the second case, it ends up being on the ingredients (for potato leek soup no less xD). I'm not saying that the "range way" is bad, but I have a personal preference to steer clear from it unless it's super relevant.
Possibility 3 - Give some exact(ish) numbers: It sounds the cleanest to say "3 immortals and 10 sentries," but does this break our goal? We want a non-core player to understand the basic composition of immortal+sentry in approximately the correct proportions. I would argue that this does satisfy our original goal by considering the different possibilities. If Naniwa performed a 2 immortal, 8 sentry push, would the non-core player think to himself "This must be a completely different attack than Soe was talking about" ?? Probably not. The non-core player would probably think "Oh, this must be kinda like what that Soe girl was talking about." I mean, hell, think about how YOU first got into StarCraft. You probably heard all kinds of stuff that you processed, thought about, considered when you saw slightly different spots etc. The average viewer is pretty damn smart about translating and building understanding.
So, all in all, I really commend Soe for how she presented it. Nothing she said was particularly deep from a "oh shit I didn't know that" perspective. But, consider how brilliantly it's stated to both be true to core strategy, but also be understandable to someone who is a non-core player. It's funny to remember that Soe has been commentating for about 3 years longer than I have. And, she's done a huge variety of games to a huge variety of audiences. Cool to see her apply her knowledge to SC2!
Oh and her drawings are cute xD
I think its more to the point that the entire segment about PVZ sticks out like a sorethumb when she went over it. The fact when she says "You forcefield the ramp...." it seems as if she attempts to lean forward to make sure shes reading something right. I guess its more the way she conveyed the whole thing with the general idea of it seemingly out of place. It would have been much better if she skipped the whole explaining an entire build order and exectuion in 30seconds to actually stating what uses the sentry is good for in pvz (blocking ramps, stopping run bys etc whatever), and then maybe mentioning the last bit about its FFs complimenting units like immortals with their longer range.
It would have achieved her overall idea of giving nice tid bits of info without actually attempting to direct gameplay. It just seems odd if you're taking so much about new comers learning off this, the fact she mentions its the one strategy she always thinks about leads to new comers pretty much going "Gee this is the best then ill always do this" rather than maybe actually educating them on how to learn the game (Ie what the unit compliments, what its uses are)
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
i always thought woman were used to bring in the men. 0_0
I watched the first episode; it really doesn't seem that horrible to me. Granted the analysis isn't super high level, but who says it has to be? Seems interesting enough, and at least gives people, newer players especially, a little bit of a glimpse into the topics covered.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
i always thought woman were used to bring in the men. 0_0
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Perhaps all of the negative feedback from player to pro is based on sarcastic remarks?
It's not all based on sarcastic remarks.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I have yet to insult any professional player, and/or caster I even refrain usually from making fun of Blizzard employee's until Mr. Kim decided "imbalanced maps make the game more fun" and that crossed the line...
You're the only person that cares about this. And you're probably offended by me saying that even though that's ridiculous.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Constantly you have been labeling me, and the community as these stereotypical idiot trolls...
I also label the community a lot of positive things. More often than negative things.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I'm sorry, but myself personally, cannot agree with that.
Your all-or-nothing statement makes this either obvious or ridiculous. Did you think that I think every individual making up the community is a "stereotypical idiot troll"? That's absurd. But on the other hand, you are being equally absurd if you think there isn't an individual in the community that is a stereotypical idiot troll. It's easy to provide a counterexample to disprove the former and an example to disprove the latter.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I have supported you as a professional player, and for the past 2 years in your horrendous slump I have always said "Nony's gonna come back" and I've been a loyal fan...
Not a slump. My results never got significantly worse. In BW, I was rapidly improving and destined for Proleague when I was in Korea. I quit playing and then briefly resumed about a year later to win TSL2. Then I switched games. I've never properly practiced SC2 and I've never gotten good at SC2. My results reflect that. If you want to compare my relative standing among non-Koreans between BW and SC2, then you can technically call it a slump. But that's just a useless technicality. Practically speaking, I've never slumped.
Thanks for the support.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You have continually been arrogant and rude, for no reason at all, and as I've said before you really just won't care, but I am no longer a fan...
How do you know I have no reason? I have lots of reasons. What do you mean by reason? Is a reason a justification or an explanation? Do things with no benefit have reasons for existing? If your only point here is that I've done something wrong it's useless because everyone has. You may as well dislike someone because you saw them sneeze once.
If you've got a particular gripe with arrogance and rudeness, then you should consider how much more time and attention I give to random community members than other pro players. Some of it is in a rude tone and even less of it is actually rude and arrogant. But that's nothing compared to the pros who are disgusted by TL.net discussions and are completely uninterested in interacting with any members of the community that way.
Also consider that you get only a tiny glimpse of the personalities of the people you are judging. There are many situations partially reported to the public of which I have known the full story and all the facts. There are always a ton of people (often a very strong majority) who get it wrong. It is fine to enjoy the bliss of ignorance but it is not helpful to be ignorantly indignant. The fact is that you don't know a person unless you know the person and even then you are seeing only one side of them. Know the limitations of your limited data. Learn when it is wise to truly reserve judgment (as opposed to judging and not telling anyone).
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I tried to make this thread as unbias as possible, that doesn't matter...
Why do you say a random remark and then state that it doesn't matter? You're raving.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Perhaps instead of condeming the community as a group that "are bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself"
Condemning isn't a very time consuming activity. But I didn't condemn the community. I just told MrBitter that he shouldn't tell the community that they're bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself. That is one hypothesis for explaining the data he pointed out. But he shouldn't say it even if it's true. But even if he did say it, he still wouldn't be condemning. It's just a neutral observation and description.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: you should perhaps invest your time in "the game itself, instead of stuff outside the game" to perhaps improve...
Wow three times perhaps. This is quite a contrast with some other bold statements you've made. Now it's all perhaps. It's funny though because you're advising that I spend more time practicing to get better. That's common knowledge. But you hide behind three times perhaps now. I agree that I should invest my time into the game itself. I do it on occasion already!
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: But what do I know, I'm not a professional player, so probably nothing.
If you aren't going to stand behind the things you say at all then you shouldn't say them. If you changed a few things without changing the meaning, like put this statement at the beginning and state it more simply, "I don't know what I'm talking about", then it's easier to see how ridiculous it is.
If you too want to play with a.... wait for it... DARK PYLON AND STAR RELIC, search (Bread) and pick either outpost, megaton, or lava flow (the rest aren't updated). Also the only reason I am shamelessly plugging is because the Star Relic is neat in action.
Also I liked the background music (it's catchy).
As for analysis, people can get better.
GSL, GSL Off The Record (well it wasn't bad except the MC episode where they made it awkward for MC), etc weren't too good at the beginning.
But anyway, seriously that was entertaining enough that I'd want to watch more of them. Good job NASL team. Watch the second episode if you haven't.
As for what other thing NASL could do? Well they could get Polt his own segment where he talks in English for the fangirls. Polt Speaking English + Show Spoiler +
Also play that catchy background music too (is that NASL composed music or from somewhere else? It is seriously catchy >.>).
Edit - Also it seems mining out will be a regular thing now:
Umm, I enjoyed this quite a bit. It's better than the learn Korean bit in the GSL, that only tells me information that I will probably never use. The learn korean is a nice novelty because it introduces a bit of korean culture, but I really enjoy this a lot more!
I never knew that stuff about the development of the sentry. Yes it has pretty basic info, but I still think it's very useful. It's a 2-minute segment to appeal to lower level players and let's face it, the majority of players are lower level.
I'm really interested in seeing where this will go.
Is this what people are talking about? I'm sorry, but you hardcore people need to realize your not the only people that play/watch/ love starcraft...bleh
Just saying "This thread is not sexyst" does not give you a moral dispense and allows you to say anything whitouth being tagged as sexist... off course it is sexist; you are basically assuming things (like scripting) based on the fact that she is a girl. The show is was it is, there's no need to try to find a different role for it (its ovbiously not meant to be a really deep analysis). Shows like this are good for e-sports, I think most people found it really interesting.
On May 01 2012 04:53 Liquid`NonY wrote: That seemed good to me. Soe has a genuine interest and a great personality.
This is not inappropriate sex appeal. While she certainly looks good, her style isn't cranking up the sexuality. As a general rule, you put attractive people in front of the camera. That can be done without abusing sex appeal. I think Soe's Corner is pretty close to perfect in this respect.
I think having a girl do it is great because it'll make girls viewing NASL a little more comfortable. I am a fan of diversifying content so that we can get as many people interested in SC2 as possible. I don't think we need to appease the core fans anymore. While they might prefer some Day[9] clone doing this segment, they can live without it. So this helps get girls into it. And as is completely clear from the whole thing, it helps ease new SC2 fans into the complexity of the game.
I think she'll get more comfortable making these segments and become really good!
i always thought woman were used to bring in the men. 0_0
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On May 01 2012 15:59 milodon wrote: Just saying "This thread is not sexyst" does not give you a moral dispense and allows you to say anything whitouth being tagged as sexist... off course it is sexist; you are basically assuming things (like scripting) based on the fact that she is a girl. The show is was it is, there's no need to try to find a different role for it (its ovbiously not meant to be a really deep analysis). Shows like this are good for e-sports, I think most people found it really interesting.
I don't think it has anything to do with sexism. The OP says it sounds scripted because it clearly was if you listen to the sound of her voice. She sounds way too unnatural for that to be improvised, especially while she's explaining details about the Sentry. She was either reading from a script or reciting scripted lines.
That said, I don't think it even matters. Programs use scripts for a reason, I'm sure she'll execute better over time.
One problem I did have with the OP is that I really thought the writing style took a lot of patience to read at times.
Edit: I'm just talking about about this kind of thing:
"Her discussion is suppose to be based on, well the units and how to use them, but they come off almost as if they needed someone to draw, and then someone to read and decided why not, we have an artist anyway"
On May 01 2012 15:59 milodon wrote: Just saying "This thread is not sexyst" does not give you a moral dispense and allows you to say anything whitouth being tagged as sexist... off course it is sexist; you are basically assuming things (like scripting) based on the fact that she is a girl. The show is was it is, there's no need to try to find a different role for it (its ovbiously not meant to be a really deep analysis). Shows like this are good for e-sports, I think most people found it really interesting.
I don't think it has anything to do with sexism. The OP says it sounds scripted because it clearly was if you listen to the sound of her voice. She sounds way too unnatural for that to be improvised, especially while she's explaining details about the Sentry. She was either reading from a script or reciting scripted lines.
That said, I don't think it even matters. Programs use scripts for a reason, I'm sure she'll execute better over time.
One problem I did have with the OP is that I really thought the writing style took a lot of patience to read at times.
Edit: I'm just talking about about this kind of thing:
"Her discussion is suppose to be based on, well the units and how to use them, but they come off almost as if they needed someone to draw, and then someone to read and decided why not, we have an artist anyway"
It could have been more concise at times lol
I also dont have a problem with a script. My point is that he is assuming things because she is a girl - thats the obvious undestatment of the thread; he trows even the example of Slayers EVE, contributing to the stereotipe that if a girl is placed in a spot usually male-dominated, it has to be because of positive discrimation. I personally find that reducing the "pro" features of the show to "she is atractive and speaks fluently" is also a little condescendent; probably the most important thing in a show is to have a good "feel" with the camera, with consists in more than speaking fluently and its actually a not so common talent. If he felt that the scripting make the show look unnatural, or that it was a superficial show that adds nothing to the NASL, he could have said so and keep the rest of the implications to himself. But what`s the point in making those critics to a 4:00 minute show? Is like complaining about the tiny adds in the GSL where they explain korean words. No, the main purpose of the thread is (IMO) bringing attention to the fact that a (in the OP opinion) flawed show is hosted by a girl, who probably got there based on her looks. That is sexist; its not a terrible crime; I expect the OP not to get offended, its not a personal attack. But I insist on my main point: saying at the beggining of a post that the post is not intended to be sexyst (or racist, or anything really) does not mean anything; sexism can sometimes be subtle (not the case here, IMO), and there`s nothing wrong with pointing it out when its there.
I think it's premature to judge the show based off of the pilot. It seems pretty clear there's no solid structure, she's just gonna talk about a basic "SC2-thingy" every time. I agree that build was out of place, but I really liked the drawings and the history. Anyways, I'm gonna give it another few episodes before I write anymore about it, the concept is promising, and she is cute/an amazing artist.
Edit: I'm not saying there's something wrong with the lack of a solid structure.
"I will be choosing an aspect of the game to focus on, that can be a particular unit, a map, a play style, some bit of the lore, a player, basically anything (that has something) to do with Starcraft 2, an I very much hope to provide some useful insides, or at least entertain you with my random scribbles".
With this definition of the show in mind, I seriously cannot understand the rambling people are dishing up with. They show is clearly not meant for hard core analysis and strategic discussions, but more like a filler, to provide entertainment and maybe some insight on a more analytical level.
The way the presentation was made, may very well have been less ideal with the way she introduced it, but that is something that with feedback can be perfected. Everything else I believe she nailed right then and there.
Regarding the "she does not understand Starcraft well enough to talk about it, and someone else should have had the job" - thing, I would easily like to argue that for this type of show, you could easily have a person with no knowledge at all, explain in detail how a strategy or tactic is supposed to be executed, and or the purpose of it. With this being said, I do not believe that this is the way to follow, but just something for people to think about. Ranting about how she is not fit for this, is all a matter of structuring the presentation properly, and not a matter of how much knowledge she has of the game.
I think "Soe's Corner" is an ideal way to cater to the casual audience and even bring new fans in. If you use this 5 minute tidbid as a viewer friendly SC2 lesson, like unit history/purpose f.e., I think it's a great addition to the already improved look of the NASL. And Soe as a host is absolutely fantastic. She's easy to listen, open, friendly and articulate. She has a pretty appearance and on top of all; she's highly talented. I really don't see the problem here.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Perhaps all of the negative feedback from player to pro is based on sarcastic remarks?
It's not all based on sarcastic remarks.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I have yet to insult any professional player, and/or caster I even refrain usually from making fun of Blizzard employee's until Mr. Kim decided "imbalanced maps make the game more fun" and that crossed the line...
You're the only person that cares about this. And you're probably offended by me saying that even though that's ridiculous.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Constantly you have been labeling me, and the community as these stereotypical idiot trolls...
I also label the community a lot of positive things. More often than negative things.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I'm sorry, but myself personally, cannot agree with that.
Your all-or-nothing statement makes this either obvious or ridiculous. Did you think that I think every individual making up the community is a "stereotypical idiot troll"? That's absurd. But on the other hand, you are being equally absurd if you think there isn't an individual in the community that is a stereotypical idiot troll. It's easy to provide a counterexample to disprove the former and an example to disprove the latter.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I have supported you as a professional player, and for the past 2 years in your horrendous slump I have always said "Nony's gonna come back" and I've been a loyal fan...
Not a slump. My results never got significantly worse. In BW, I was rapidly improving and destined for Proleague when I was in Korea. I quit playing and then briefly resumed about a year later to win TSL2. Then I switched games. I've never properly practiced SC2 and I've never gotten good at SC2. My results reflect that. If you want to compare my relative standing among non-Koreans between BW and SC2, then you can technically call it a slump. But that's just a useless technicality. Practically speaking, I've never slumped.
Thanks for the support.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You have continually been arrogant and rude, for no reason at all, and as I've said before you really just won't care, but I am no longer a fan...
How do you know I have no reason? I have lots of reasons. What do you mean by reason? Is a reason a justification or an explanation? Do things with no benefit have reasons for existing? If your only point here is that I've done something wrong it's useless because everyone has. You may as well dislike someone because you saw them sneeze once.
If you've got a particular gripe with arrogance and rudeness, then you should consider how much more time and attention I give to random community members than other pro players. Some of it is in a rude tone and even less of it is actually rude and arrogant. But that's nothing compared to the pros who are disgusted by TL.net discussions and are completely uninterested in interacting with any members of the community that way.
Also consider that you get only a tiny glimpse of the personalities of the people you are judging. There are many situations partially reported to the public of which I have known the full story and all the facts. There are always a ton of people (often a very strong majority) who get it wrong. It is fine to enjoy the bliss of ignorance but it is not helpful to be ignorantly indignant. The fact is that you don't know a person unless you know the person and even then you are seeing only one side of them. Know the limitations of your limited data. Learn when it is wise to truly reserve judgment (as opposed to judging and not telling anyone).
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I tried to make this thread as unbias as possible, that doesn't matter...
Why do you say a random remark and then state that it doesn't matter? You're raving.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Perhaps instead of condeming the community as a group that "are bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself"
Condemning isn't a very time consuming activity. But I didn't condemn the community. I just told MrBitter that he shouldn't tell the community that they're bigger fans of stuff outside the game than the game itself. That is one hypothesis for explaining the data he pointed out. But he shouldn't say it even if it's true. But even if he did say it, he still wouldn't be condemning. It's just a neutral observation and description.
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: you should perhaps invest your time in "the game itself, instead of stuff outside the game" to perhaps improve...
Wow three times perhaps. This is quite a contrast with some other bold statements you've made. Now it's all perhaps. It's funny though because you're advising that I spend more time practicing to get better. That's common knowledge. But you hide behind three times perhaps now. I agree that I should invest my time into the game itself. I do it on occasion already!
On May 01 2012 05:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: But what do I know, I'm not a professional player, so probably nothing.
If you aren't going to stand behind the things you say at all then you shouldn't say them. If you changed a few things without changing the meaning, like put this statement at the beginning and state it more simply, "I don't know what I'm talking about", then it's easier to see how ridiculous it is.
I think I just got a boner. Nony dropping knowledge bombs.
What a crazy thread that's attracted two liquid pros, an admin, rekrul and Day[J]. I'm going to save some of these posts to remind myself why you guys are awesome.
With regards to the Corner, it's awesome to see the lore and also some cool artwork on sentries. I can't wait to see which unit/style/map she picks next. Keep it up please NASL!!
I enjoyed the segment, I didn't get better at the game from it, but if filled the time. My biggest complaint is that this thread makes me (as a Starcraft 2 community member/fan/player) look like an idiot. She seemed knowledgeable enough and didn't stumble, enough that I'm happy to have her in the community.
My real problem is with any obvious fakes that don't even bother to read the "script" properly and make repeated errors about game facts/details. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, if you don't know anything about the game, but are diligent enough to make sure you're not always making mistakes in your dialogue, that is good enough for most production that isn't real-time analysis.
On May 01 2012 06:21 Day[9] wrote: Oh dude that segment was awesome! A+ :D.
Pretty nifty history on the sentry too. I barely remember when it was called the nullifier, and I would personally love to be able to lift units w/ the sentry LOL. I wonder if you could go zealot sentry all game long in PvZ hahaha :D.
I wish I could go back and alter the way I posted it, it wasn't that the entire show wasn't good... I suppose you're the expert on everything eSport, what is your take on the specific portion of build discussion and how it relates to lower level players? Most people have generally said that, it is fine for low leagues, but I still hold my reservations especially from wtaching enough of your dailies way back in BW when I went from D- to B in a matter of months, where you said the biggest problem was getting a build order when your learning (or at least a major issue) and having no execution or endgoal (midgame) to look at, which is what was given.
So I suppose, what is your take on the build discussion.
I think Soe did an appropriate job w/ her presentation, but I understand how you might have apprehension. Fortunately, in answering your question, I can shed some light on the problems that commentators have to solve w/ their word choice!
In commentary, you have to be super aware of what you're actually trying to do in any cast, or at any moment within that cast. This will greatly color the way the commentator speaks. For example:
Situation A Terran player opens with an aggressive attacking play vs an early expoing protoss. He needs to finish his warpgate research so his 3gates can get an extra warpin of 3 stalkers to defend the push. Suppose that, with this particular build, if Protoss chronos 4 times on his warp gate, he'll finish the warpgates just in time to defend the push. In the game, warpgate is half done, Protoss has already spent 2 chronos on the warpgate, and Protoss sees the push gathering at the Terran front.
Case 1 - I'm doing an educational daily: My goal is to be educating people. As someone who's played StarCraft competitively for 12 years, I know that a 5 second window can actually be plenty of time. I want my viewers to know that so they can feel comfortable doing it too.
In this circumstance, I can say "Ok Protoss needs to spend 4 chrono on warpgate total to defend this push. So, as long as he uses this stalker to delay the push by 10 seconds, he'll get the warpgate finished + stalkers warped in with 5 seconds to spare." If I can point out this particular issue (the 4chrono on the warpgate), tons of players who chrono probes too much are now able to defend early pushes. Moreover, they'll be able to spot situations where they can devote that chrono to probes instead. Huzzah!
Case 2 - I'm casting a major tournament: My goal is to be a storyteller and to build excitement. A 5 second window might be enough for a pro to feel safe, but 5 seconds is a REALLY short amount of time!!! It would be a HUGE error to say "oh this is going to be no problem at all. He just chrono boosts twice and warps in with 5 seconds to spare." That would kill all tension immediately. If Protoss lands the 2 chrono boosts, nobody would ever realize it was a close call. Worse, in the circumstance that Protoss misses the 2 chronos and loses, I'm now in a weird corner. The only thing that makes sense is to say "well Protoss messed that up." Though true, that makes the Protoss look bad, doesn't give due credit to the Terran, and the viewer is left kinda going "oh I guess that guy made a dumb mistake."
A much smarter play is to say "Oh man this is going to be razor close. He needs to get that warp gate chronoboosting NOW if he wants to hold up in time!!" Suddenly, the audience can sense that tension. They may have never known that there's a 5 second window with 4 chronos on the warpgate, but they feel excitement with me saying things like "It's going to come down to seconds!!"
I could share that information about the 4 chrono boosts on the warpgate and look knowledgeable, but that's not my job. The cast isn't about me dropping knowledge bombs at every opportunity. Sure dropping SOME knowledge helps make for a cleaner show, but you have to consider the case you're in.
Relating back to Soe's bit, consider what she's producing and where it's being placed. It's clearly a bit more broadly focused. Should she be going into heavy in depth information? Probably not. The content that flanks her show is game casting, content littered with in depth information from Gretorp, FrodaN, Bitterdam etc. If she did too much in depth stuff, the overall NASL look would be fairly one dimensional. So, it seems pretty reasonable to say it's more broad, introductory SC2 type stuff, or just "miscellaneous" type content. Moreover, with the time limitation, there can only be so much that's stated. What to do now?
Soe smartly accounts for this by having a simple topic "the sentry," and then breaks it into two halves: history + gameplay. I think anyone would appreciate the history stuff (I didn't know any of the info she mentioned). So, let's examine the gameplay stuff (I'll pick just the PvZ portion n' whatnot) in the same way I did before.
Situation: Soe wants to present the basic idea that immortal+sentry is a key core composition in PvZ midgame. Stalkers + upgrades round off the mixture to be pretty deadly, particularly vs roaches. Our target is the non-core SC2 players.
Possibility 1 - Speak in generalities: I could say "a few immortals" and "a lot of sentries" but a non-core player might not have any clue what this means. Sure, most players know that "a few immortals" is 2-4 and "a lot of sentries" is ~7-12 for a normal midgame, but the non-core player might not know that. He might only play 4v4 games and might attack with 15 immortals at a time. It's not clear enough.
Possibility 2 - Speak in ranges: I could say "2-4 immortals" and "7-12 sentries" and it may work pretty decently. But, if you use too many numbers/ranges, it distracts from the core goal. You're trying to highlight immortal+sentry as a strong composition, not nail down the exact ranges. It can sound clunky. Just say this sentence out loud: "2 to 3 potatoes, 4 to 6 leeks, 1 to 5 sticks of celery, 1 to 2 cups of creme." Now say "2 potatoes, 4 leeks, 3 sticks of celery, and 1 cup of creme." Notice how in the first instance, you can hear how much more emphasis is on the numbers and in the second case, it ends up being on the ingredients (for potato leek soup no less xD). I'm not saying that the "range way" is bad, but I have a personal preference to steer clear from it unless it's super relevant.
Possibility 3 - Give some exact(ish) numbers: It sounds the cleanest to say "3 immortals and 10 sentries," but does this break our goal? We want a non-core player to understand the basic composition of immortal+sentry in approximately the correct proportions. I would argue that this does satisfy our original goal by considering the different possibilities. If Naniwa performed a 2 immortal, 8 sentry push, would the non-core player think to himself "This must be a completely different attack than Soe was talking about" ?? Probably not. The non-core player would probably think "Oh, this must be kinda like what that Soe girl was talking about." I mean, hell, think about how YOU first got into StarCraft. You probably heard all kinds of stuff that you processed, thought about, considered when you saw slightly different spots etc. The average viewer is pretty damn smart about translating and building understanding.
So, all in all, I really commend Soe for how she presented it. Nothing she said was particularly deep from a "oh shit I didn't know that" perspective. But, consider how brilliantly it's stated to both be true to core strategy, but also be understandable to someone who is a non-core player. It's funny to remember that Soe has been commentating for about 3 years longer than I have. And, she's done a huge variety of games to a huge variety of audiences. Cool to see her apply her knowledge to SC2!
Oh and her drawings are cute xD
Day9 wins the thread. Re-read this before posting, IMO.
Totally loved the whole section, I didn't know most of the history behind the sentry. Even as a long time good player I still enjoyed it. Great casual yet informative bit.
I thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the bit with the Sentry's development history, had totally forgotten about that. Looking forward to future segments.
I love these little things that NASL has started doing (even though the Mining Out segment with Sen and ToD was just crazy weird... :D).
EPT
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