EPTtoo much gas
Why is the Nydus Worm underused? - Page 3
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
too much gas | ||
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Spieltor
327 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:56 figq wrote: It could become someday like nukes - if you remember there were times when we were excited for just one nuke in the game. I know, right? Now people nuke all over the place. Sometimes pro's use them this way, but I bet it's still not optimized. Basically, if you invest in more than one offensive nydus simultaneously, you get double or triple the unloading speed, and suddenly the attack isn't that bad. I think in pro matches it's very rare to be able to pop them inside enemy base, but like pylons, you could hide them somewhere close enough and just use that for reinforcing your main attack. if one nydus network could build three worms at once, you'd have a case. I was trying to make 3+ worms at once in midfield shattered temple for this very reason (increased throughput speed), bacik in gold. There's a reason that has fallen by the wayside. it wasnt very effective then, and and definitely not going to do anything in master/gm but get you killed. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Same reason ravens aren't used enough (yes they would need a buff to lower that skill-requirement though), same reason we don't see alot of stuff yet. Players are simply not good enough yet. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On March 01 2012 14:37 Leeoku wrote: cant be cancelled too much gas its only to much gas if u rush for it. nydus worms shine late game. its so good after u get all ur hive tech stuff because u can bounce back and forth without having to worry about the immobility of broods. nydus worms suffer from the same underatement as ravens and pre-shield buff warp prisms. it will take a buff or something for zergs to actually start using them. either that or a pro player that uses them as a legit build order rather than cheese for ppl to blindly copy. its a shame really. they have alot of potential. imo there better then warping units in with pylon power because u can also retreat into the nydus and save ur units. nydus worms have the potential to give zerg ground army SOOOOOOO much mobility that its insane. u can litteraly be everywhere on the map at once with constant and good nydus play. especially on those larger maps. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
Edit: Connecting bases with defensive Nydus Worms just isn't really justifiable - if an outlying expo comes under attack, the Worm is going to get sniped before you can possibly put enough units through it. Its possible this hasn't been fully explored yet, but I don't think its a promising tactic either. Similarly, trying to use it as a way to speed-rally to the front doesn't work in practice when you've got reinforcements coming from 5+ bases strewn across a map. Again, possible this just hasn't been explored but doesn't seem likely to result in much. | ||
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kcbgoku
Poland156 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On March 01 2012 14:38 Spieltor wrote: if one nydus network could build three worms at once, you'd have a case. I was trying to make 3+ worms at once in midfield shattered temple for this very reason (increased throughput speed), bacik in gold. There's a reason that has fallen by the wayside. it wasnt very effective then, and and definitely not going to do anything in master/gm but get you killed. You build them sequentially as part of mass confusion in dedicated attacks. Say you're playing a ground army vs siege tanks. Nydus outside their 3rd or nat (whichever is less defended), hit it a bit while making a nydus outside their natural which you can pop to. If you have drop or mutas you can also drop/harass and try for one in their base all back to back. This kind of rapid striking can force their army out of position really well. People assume the worm is bad, then work off that assumption. Yes it has low hp and takes a bit to build. Neither of those things matter if your opponent doesn't know where it's coming or if your army is between them and it. An opponent can scout their own base well, but they don't get to have perfect vision of the rest of the map, just look at how easy it is to get a proxy pylon up later on in the game. I equate the popular opinion of the Nydus worm to saying that banelings suck because when you run one in vs a comparable # of marines it isn't cost efficient. Yeah the result of the situation technically true, but it's completely missing the context. | ||
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
The thing with nydus is that drops are better for what people suggesting in most situations. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
Edit: It can be used in high level games though. Occasionally it's a method I'll use to break a contain in ZvT, and it's starting to find use in high level ZvZ, when there are just mass roach festor hydra standoffs. | ||
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
I utilize them pretty heavily as a forward pylon. They're very helpful when you want to really pile the pressure on, ESPECIALLY with Hydras in ZvP. I'm sure everyone has encountered scenarios where you attacked, did good damage and wanted to continue the pressure or possibly deal a killing move, but your units took too long to get there and by the time your army is replenished, your opponent has had time to match the army or put up adequate defenses. Alternatively, it's also helpful as a retreat method if you get in over your head, again, especially with Hydras. Also, it's easy to send a Queen through the Nydus, drop some creep and spread it for greater forward mobility. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
i use to experiment heavy nydus play in the beta but then stoped in favor of infestor broods or infestor ultra. i might start experimenting again because they really do have alot of potential | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On March 01 2012 14:48 RedMosquito wrote: cuz zerg is so fast they dont need it. protoss or terran could benefit more from something like a nydus imo this. theirs really no point in slowly unloading out of nyduses when zerglings fly around the map. I disagree with the people saying that it should have more hp/be easier to use. if it was tough enough to withstand workers, then you would have to station army at your main at all times, which i think is unfair. I think its fair and right to have the nydus be extrememly weak, considering how dangerous it can be if it gets into your main and wreaks havok. | ||
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Petrone
Sweden47 Posts
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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Azhrei16
United States284 Posts
There are just too many negatives. I can understand if it didn't cost gas, then sure keep the rest of its characteristics. They don't need to really change much or buff it hardcore, but removing 1 or maybe even 2 of it's limitations would help immensely. | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
So idk, maybe the metagame will get there, maybe it wont. ZvX all feel prettty "tight" as in... it doesnt feel like there are a lot of minerals and gas floating around to possibly throw away to get rid of 20 seconds of travel time. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On March 01 2012 14:58 Azhrei16 wrote: The main points are that Nydus Worms cannot be cancelled, which makes the gas cost risky unless you are floating very high end game. Health is much too low, it gives the enemy an early warning (which I never understood) and units come out only one at a time. This makes it basically useless for it's intended purpose. Sure, you can link bases and it would be mildly helpful, but if you are about to get swamped by an army it's not very viable to transfer your army via a Nydus Worm to that location. If you realize you can't fight the army, but they snipe it in 2 seconds, then you can't retreat. There are just too many negatives. I can understand if it didn't cost gas, then sure keep the rest of its characteristics. They don't need to really change much or buff it hardcore, but removing 1 or maybe even 2 of it's limitations would help immensely. If you have vision you have a pretty good idea of if the worm can be killed or not. Saying it's risky is only true if you aren't putting any effort into minimizing that risk by good scouting and map awareness. it doesnt feel like there are a lot of minerals and gas floating around to possibly throw away to get rid of 20 seconds of travel time. I think this is a feeling that can be proven wrong is people use worms properly and really try for them. It's like a lot of things in Starcraft, it might feel terrible at first because it's counter-intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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